Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

I may not have all the facts straight here, but it seems like 720p TVs came out and they were termed "HD". Then not too much later, 1080i TVs came out and they were termed "HD" as well.

Now we have this "UHD" which has been labeled "4K" but it's slightly smaller than true 4K, just like 720p was. So I wonder when we're going to get true 4K displays. All the ones I'm seeing are 3840x2160.

Yesterday I went to Sams Club and noticed that their 70' UHD TVs were only $2,448. By contrast, a 70" JDTV was $1,898. For a 70" TV I thought that was an insanely decent price.

A 65" HDTV was only $878... also incredible. We have a 55" HDTV that we bought 6 years ago and paid $1,800 for.

All this came about because I'm thinking about doing a bridal show on Sunday and another vendor who does rentals posted in our local wedding vendor facebook group that he was giving bridal show discounts. One of the items was a 70" TV with them doing delivery and setup with a truss system. So I inquired and it was $250 to rent it for the day and included everything (regularly $450). That didn't sound to bad, and then someone asked how much it was to just buy a 70" TV... so that's why I went looking around.

Anyways, overall I didn't realize how much TV prices had dropped and how "affordable" UHD TVs were becoming. It may be plausible that we could start seeing 4K wedding video requests in the near future!

Has anyone been approached about doing a wedding in 4K?

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

I doubt it. We didn't upgrade from 1080 to 2K TVs. They exist(ed) side by side in the consumer (TV and bluray) and pro industries (cinema projectors and post production) at the same time. Now we have 3840x2160/UHD and 4096x2160/4K (17:9). 4K is the capture format and UHD is the home viewing format.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

I'd say there is a big difference between 1280x720 vs 1920x1080 compared to 3840x2160 vs 4096x2160, if anything 1080P will become the 720P of 4K. Everyone is saying 2015 is the year for 4K however most content is still delivered in 720P. Everyone was obsessed with 3D the next year 3D simply vanished. 2015 is definitely going to be the year we see more 4K but the masses won't care in my opinion.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

The difference between 720p (hd-ready) and 1080p (full hd) is more obvious then UHD and true hd or whatever it's called, for me when it says 4K on a camera, it's 4K, even if purists can prove it's not when comparing numbers, and if any client would request a 4K recording, that is what they will get from my 4K camera's. I"m absolutely sure I never will have any discussion with my clients because they doubt it's either uhd or true hd.

I have not yet been approached to shoot and deliver 4K for a wedding eventhough I have two 4k camera's and I don't expect any requests for a longer time but if someone would ask I could deliver a 4K mp4 file, not planning to invest in a 4K blu-ray burner or player once they become available or a 4K tv though, I"ll wait long enough until I get enough requests for 4K, currently I have a hard time even convincing my clients they are better of with a blu-ray instead of a dvd.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

That's the rub!
Let's face it, nobody is interested in HD apart from a few enthusiasts, because the great public are happy enough with SD. My wife watches BBC on our very big screen on channel 1 - because BBC has always been channel 1, and BBC-HD has too many digits to remember. On top of that, many repeats are not even HD, and many come from ancient analogue sources - remember when we had lines? 625 in our case. The old programmes still look good enough. The public hated fuzzy bands at the top and bottom, and drop out on their Beta and VHS and digital is just nice and solid. If the picture occasionally pixelates, they've come to ignore it. The quest for HD just never caught on with the masses. The broadcasters know, and don't really care, because the experiments when HD was being first toyed with showed them how few people noticed the difference between SD, then 720 and then 1080. BR instead of DVD never really achieved the sales it deserved, and I still have my first batch of BR discs, because no client so far wanted one! Most is still on DVD, and the online delivery done in 720, for sheer convenience and speed of transfer.

4K seems another techno-leap that people really don't appreciate!

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

We've already done a 4k wedding up in New Hampshire earlier this year. I offer it as an optional upgrade for $3,000. Recently had a client torn between doing the 4k upgrade or an engagement film, they opted for the latter instead. But still, it's coming.

UHD TV's are flying off the shelves at Best Buy, I always ask those guys when I walk through how they're selling. Pretty soon you're going to start seeing more and more people asking about it so be ready. Successful entrepreneurs and businesses that really excel, are the ones who know how to pivot in a changing environment, and can foresee change. Just ask Blockbuster, Tower Records, Borders, if they could go back in time if they'd embrace the DVD-by-mail and streaming technology, MP3's, and eBooks sooner.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

Be happy Noa, it's giving us the freedom of reframing in post while ever this is the case. I know you already know how good that can be, so be happy.

I loved filming some nativity plays before christmas. Film in 4K, deliver DVD and more or less re-frame in post from a static camera to what ever I wanted. Easy to shoot, easy to edit, done. I'm not buying another camera for video that's not 4K.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

+1 Paul, my experiences are virtually the same as yours!

Roger

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

I've been shooting in Full HD 1080p for over 4 years and had only had one client ever request that I deliver their video in Blu-Ray format. Lots of people have Blu-Ray players in the US right now but it just doesn't seem to be something that my clients are concerned about. I don't think most in people in my area really care about the difference in sharpness between Blu-Ray and DVD unless they're really into technology and gadgets. So I would be VERY surprised if I get people in the next 3 years asking for 4K delivery.

However, I think one of the biggest advantages to shooting in 4K is being able to tell clients "We shoot in 4K". You can then explain to them why they will want a 4K wedding video, how this is the newest and best thing, and probably make quite a bit of money just by using the term 4K. If they get excited about it then they might notice that it is sharper and more detailed and when they post the video on Facebook they might say "Check out our 4K wedding video!".

In reality, if one were to never mention 4K to the bride, I think almost all of them will be just as happy with a great wedding video shot on a Canon 6D as they will if it were shot on a Canon 1DC. As long as you get all the shots they want and provide them a creative and technically sound video then they're probably not going to care if it was shot in 720p, 1080p or 4K.

So in my opinion, in most situations for the next few years 4K will make a difference only if the videographer make sure to mention it and uses it as a selling point. Otherwise, I think it's far less important to most brides than it is to the videographer.

I think many of them are more concerned with good sound, good lighting, great customer service, and just an overall positive experience for them.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

All good points.

Walking in, I expected a 70" UHD TV to be around $5,000 or more and was just completely shocked that they were only $2,500.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

Flying off the shelf at Best Buy? What are they watching on it? Do they even understand the availability, restrictions, and capabilities of what they bought?

Being a technician I once thought that anyone who was willing to invest the extra cash it takes to own the latest and greatest in high tech products "must understand the technology behind the purchase". I now realize how wrong that assumption is. Owning high technology products now carries "status" with it among a certain class of egocentric consumers. The phone you carry and the LCD TV in your living room now matters as much to them as the label on their clothes and the car they drive. I promise you that on Black Friday there were many fickle Americans that came home from Best Buy with a 4K TV and absolutely no clue about what it is or what it will do.

Do you think the sales guy was explaining that no major network in the US is broadcasting in 4K yet. Not a chance. The technical side of the sales pitch at Best Buy went like this: "Dude, it's 4K, that is the best you can get, it will blow your mind and it is 30% off, today only. Just in time for your Super Bowl party." SOLD!

Steve

At one of the annual corporate shows I worked on my client would put a big banner on the stage that said "Poor people have big TVs, rich people have big libraries." IMHO so true!

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

Really not sure, it's not my responsibility to be the moral police at Best Buy haha. I just know they ARE selling, doesn't matter to me why. I believe that one of their selling points is that the TV can upscale 1080p content to 4k, like how Blu-ray players "upscaled" regular DVDs back in the day.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

I think it would be more important to them if they were probably educated. They're investing a lot of money already with us, why shouldn't they be informed of all options available to them, especially if it might mean a higher quality wedding film with a longer shelf life?

Ultimately the market will eventually dictate what they want. None of us will have a say in it no matter how much we shove it in their face, OR if you choose to pretend it's not an option.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

Exactly, most people will believe whatever the salesperson whispers in their ear, it's only we seasoned videographers that know when they are lying. :)

I have not seen it yet but from what I have read 4K tv's also upscale well and I"m sure that blu-rayplayers, just like dvd players, will upscale HD well to 4K. It's only us videographers that worry about resolution and it's the client that worries about content.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

That's just a tad snarky. And a bit puzzling, since WE are always whining about consumers who seem happy with older tech. Now YOU are whining because they're a step ahead. They can't win.

4K content will trickle out, and they will be ready for it. That's all that matters.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

Walking in to Sainsburys, Tesco, or Asda ... I seem to always easily find DVDs (they're at the checkouts and pretty much in sight) but looking for the Bluray section always takes a little more time.

Why is that ? because the masses simply don't care about Bluray or 4K. You have to be a bit of a movie buff / tecchie to want the absolute best quality.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

It's funny how some try to group people in to some collective term called masses, as if one rule applies to everyone. 1/3 of my clients have asked for HD delivery, predominantly bluray but also USB stick delivery; are all these movie buffs? My parents, who are definitely neither techie or movie buffs regularly watch HD channels, namely nature shows and some dramas where they feel the better quality is noticeable. For news, quiz shows they happily settle for SD. Looking at viewing figures for TV shows in the UK, I see approx 20% of BBC and ITV viewers watch programmes on the HD channels. So yes the majority are still watching SD, but 1 in 5 is more than a niche market when you're talking audience in millions.

Now Blurays are hardly in the same small category as laser discs were in the 90's, which were certainly more for movie buffs. All HMV stores I've been to have had a massive bluray section equal to DVD and I've found blurays of all recent releases quite easily in all my local supermarkets. So I don't think its just techie and movie buffs who are buying them. So whilst DVD is still the preferred format, with video streaming also becoming more popular, HD viewing is only going to increase.

I did read an article that suggested that HD is a failure though because it offers only a small increase in resolution over SD. If 4k TV's do take off, and manufacturers are going to do all they can to make sure they do in the face of competition from tablets and the like; will SD still be enjoyed when the increase in upscalling is closer to 16 times rather than 4. Perhaps 4K TV's will push people to value HD content more in the future. However this is speculation.

Frankly if some Videographers are happy with their HD content being viewed on DVD that's fine; I'm not. I'm starting to work more and more in 4K and on a personal level am enjoying the quality of the footage and will from this year start to strongly recommend HD delivery to my clients, whilst delivering some 4K content via Youtube. Whether they take it or want it, is of course up to them. In a competing market, I prefer a policy of being ahead of the game and not two steps behind. I shall have my first 4k Wedding in the Autumn, which came considerably sooner than expected. This booking wouldn't have been possible if I hadn't already taken one step towards 4K in 2014, so I shall not hold back further because 2/3s of my clients still want SD delivery. Tomorrows clients may tell a different story.

Back to the original question though, I don't see UHD as another 720. It's a lot closer to 4k than 720 is to true HD. TV's that offer 720 were marketed as HD ready, but I'm seeing TV's and monitors that are UHD and marketed as 4K rather than UHD or 4k ready.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

That's why I recently changed my packages to include blu-ray and HD files on a usb stick only and have dvd as a paying option. In that way I"m providing them with a high quality file and it is up to the client if they still want their lower quality dvd's.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

This discussion could also be about 3D. That, in the end, did not make people re-buy their entire movie collection and buy a new TV or for folks here on this forum, buy a new camera. I thought there would be way more 4K TVs under the Christmas tree last year. There weren't a lot. This year prices have come down but the indicators for me are still not there. The big question is, where is the content? I have decided to take things into my own hands. With the launch of the Atomos Shogun I've shot and posted four UHD videos to youtube now. I am guessing these new UHD TVs with the YouTube widget can select the 2160 setting. Not sure about the bottle necks in terms of download speed. I'd like to see YouTube and other content providers doing more with pre-loaders. I am making most of what I shoot available for download from MediaFire so that you can has a less compressed local copy.

Beware, full disclosure. Someone mentioned sales reps whispering in peoples' ears. I am a sales rep. I am a DVinfo sponsor. I am not saying that this entitles me to be an expert in any or all areas but I do think that there is a lack of focus on PRODUCERS. I don't care to debate CONSUMERS much. At work I sell products to BOTH.

https://www.youtube.com/user/philipgoetz1

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

There's also this bit of good news for those few of us in favor of 4k...

Vimeo sneaks in 4K streaming. Hooray! | Philip Bloom

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

I'm guilty. My previous response was a bit snarky. I am not quite sure how I have ended up playing the role of an old cynic here, but I took it and ran with it. And I am NOT old ;)

In reality my view on this subject is the same as it has always been. I will provide whatever format and product my clients request of me. Period. With that said, I do not embrace these changes because it is all about the ROI for me. Keeping up with the technological changes in our industry is expensive. Yet there is no big return on the other side for us. No one is paying us more because we trashed our not so old equipment and made an investment in all new systems just to stay in business.

Phil, You have ALWAYS been a class act on this forum. Not once have I ever read anything from you I interpreted as an attempt to sell goods. I wish you would contribute more often. Your view on these things is valuable to me.

Steve

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

Nice! We've been shooting 4K as well, but haven't delivered anything yet. I hope they figure out a way to allow people to select 4k, hd or sd. It looks like it's either 4k or SD.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

So purely out of interest, what download speed do I need to have available to watch let's say 30 minutes of 4k video via Vimeo?

Roger

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

I still have some clients that have trouble playing back 720p videos on Vimeo so I would be hesitant to send a video to a client as 4K unless I also sent them another link at a lower resolution. Once internet speeds catch up then 4K streaming will be amazing, but around here (Virginia) I can't send clients 1080p because almost none of them can play it back without it stuttering.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

My findings are the same in the UK Mike, my own friends and family over a wide area of the country have frequent problems maintaining smooth HD downloads for more than a few minutes at a time. Many have problems with any HD stream at all and ISPs are still trying to roll out connections that will allow HD before they even think about 4K speeds in the average home.

Roger

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

I'm pretty lucky, I have 100mbit download speeds so I can play this stuff no problem.

However, friends and family still have no idea what 4K is, even my wife has only just started watching HD channels via netflix but I'd say she really can't tell if she's watching HD or SD most of the time.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

I saw Phillip Bloom post the 4K vimeo news over the weekend, and this morning I saw Roku is touting 4K stuff coming very soon as well.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

Going to be a few years before it hits mainstream I think; still nice to see some positive steps in embracing the format.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

A lot of low end cheap computers (especially laptops) cant even properly stream 4K on the web (youtube, for example) so I'm not even remotely concerned about putting 4k on the web as of yet.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

It looks like a CES today a new 4K consortium has been formed by major industry players to actively promote 4K development for broadcast.

In other news, I did a bridal show yesterday and of all the ~100 brides I talked to, not one asked if I delivered in 4K. LOL .... for that matter, no one asked if I deliver in HD either.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

Kyle, did anyone ask if you shot in 4K?

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

No. No one asked anything at all about 4K, either shooting or delivery.

Same for HD... not a single person asked anything about the technical side.

They were more concerned about whether we did "long" or "short" form, what we would wear on the day, and if we would travel. Those were the 3 biggest common questions all day.

Fortunately, we do "long" and the other videographer did "short" so we had completely different styles. And, 80% of those I talked with wanted "long". So yay! lol

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

Haha that worked out eh? Curious, any reason you don't offer the option for either or? I mean you are shooting for long anyway so you'll have enough footage to do short. I typically let brides choose though I find the short form to be MORE editing than the long form, oddly.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

I've just never done a short form. I'll do highlights, but in this area, the parents seem to want as much as possible so I think they believe they get more if you say you're giving them 30-60 minutes when done vs. 15 minutes.

Most of the time its the mom and dad who are paying, so when they walk up with the Bride, I make sure and find out what they want.

I'm sure I could do a short form, as the only real thing would be to pare down the ceremony from like 30 minutes to 6 or 7 minutes max.

My bridal prep section is usually only 5 minutes and I could edit down reception stuff to about the same if I didn't show full first dances.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

In one of my posts earlier on in this thread I mentioned that if a company shoots in 4K then it could certainly help them to mention "We shoot in 4K" and then explain the benefits to the bride and groom. While at the same time, if a company does not shoot in 4K (like my company) I don't think that much business will be lost by not having 4K capable cameras. I can see this changing in 3-4 years, but by then you may not be able to buy a camera that doesn't shoot 4K.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

Yeah. I'm sure 4K cams will be the norm very soon. With Panasonic leading the charge of 4K consumer cams and smartphones already going on.

This was our booth setup. Most people were floored by the cinema posters. Great point to starting conversations.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

I enjoyed reading these last couple of posts of yours Kyle as I do quite a lot of wedding shows and it is very rare indeed that I get asked anything at all technically. I get nearly all my non recommendation work from shows and I learnt years ago that talking technical is a no no. When the bride is surrounded by stands displaying cakes, shoes, dresses, jewelry and flowers, she will glaze over in seconds if you talk technical to her. You have to capture her interest with the emotional aspect of video or she will drift away instantly. Grooms are only there to reluctantly follow the bride round a few feet behind and feign interest, as they are never going to make a decision over the head of the bride.

I enjoy wedding shows as they are a challenge to make that first eye contact and sell yourself as much as your product. 4k is totally irrelevant to the conversation!

Roger

Bridal Shows detour.
 

Roger, you are correct. That is something I've really become more conscious of lately even in my regular dealings with potential clients. I don't go into any real technical detail about gear or anything, unless they specifically want to dig into it from their side, and that's only happened one time that I can recall. In general they don't care and just want their video to turn out like the ones they've seen... which it does.

This was the first bridal show that I have actually done in about .... 8 years. I had a friend of mine come down from Nashville, who is my main second shooter to help me out because he is much more of a "talker" than I am. I'm more introverted and quiet, so the whole atmosphere of the trade show is somewhat daunting to me to do alone.

My idea was to simply try to tie into the emotions and explain why we think having a video is important. Certainly no high pressure or anything like that, but just honest conversations. My goal going in was to get at least 1 booking and preferably 2 or 3. I think with a solid 12 leads we'll be able to do that.

It was interesting to interact with everyone and it was a good time overall. It was a 4.5 hour show and by then end I was pretty exhausted. This is the first year where I have felt like I have had material that was worth actually showing and was proud of it.

The cinema posters were absolutely huge in getting people to stop by and say, "We have never seen anything like that." We got more compliments on those than the actual videos. But it opened the door for conversations which is what is most important.

I've also studied a lot and came to realize that "not every bride is my bride." Previously I felt like I had to do whatever to book the job. But now I realize the value of my work and figure I must be doing something right since my clients and all the family and friends go bonkers when they post the reels on Facebook. LOL So, I realize not every bride is going to choose me, and I'm ok with losing them. I know that there are brides out there who value quality work and who want a video and are willing to pay for it. Those are who I want.

Wow, this took a detour, but fun discussion.

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

Hi Roger

I think I have just one groom who asked a few technical questions once but, yes, brides themselves have never asked me "What cameras are you using" .. I used to team up with a photog who lead his interview with the bride by hauling out his Canon 50D and explained how it worked and how good it was! He didn't survive long!! It's all about visual impact and end result. Brides are not tech heads like us!

That's an eye catching display Kyle ...that would work well to attract brides to your stand for sure. It's said that you have a mere 30 seconds to get someone interested in your product or service so a stunning display would do the trick! I wonder if anyone actually takes cameras and sets them up in a stand display? Doubt whether that would attract a bride though it may treak some interest in grooms who are only at a show cos that have to be there!!

Re: Not sure if UHD is going to be like 720p was.
 

From a purely technical standpoint (to return to the original post), the difference in the two formats is much less consequential to image quality than 720p vs. 1080p. Since the number of vertical pixels is the same, the horizontal difference is not too likely to jump out at you...

IMO, 720 was a way to sell sub par panels at cheap prices while ramping up to "full" HD in the consumer display space. The "average consumer" couldn't see the difference if it wasn't pointed out (but I'd argue they can't "unsee" it once shown how to spot the difference).

Of course when the quality of the source material is lower resolution anyway, arguably the increased display resolution is immaterial... and in my mind this is the one reason to shoot at higher resolution, so by the time you crop and edit and all, it looks good whatever you display the final product on.

In the end, you still need spiffy "marketing" like those posters and a sharp looking booth to catch their attention!