Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

I don't think this thread is waiting for this link, eventhough funny and confronting, a link to a site that would help Phil to learn how to structure/shoot video, like he asked, would be much more helpfull.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

I have read, it may be true for some cameras, that AVCHD is for quality and MP4 is second rate and for getting files on a web site quickly. I have the HF G30, almost the same as the XA20 but minus the handle and infra red and I can tell you it is not true for these cameras, they use the same settings for each, so MP4 is a true alternative to AVCHD. I see no obvious visual difference in the two and have checked the settings out in Mediainfo.

MP4 is true progressive footage, has the overcrank and undercrank functions for slow and fast motion, plus a higher maximum bit rate, AVCHD is scanned progressively and recorded interlaced, but it has an LPCM audio option. I prefer the MP4 file structure, where it starts a new, dated folder every day, it helps with organisation.

Dave

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Phil - Here's still another thought. Since you've already taken some video, I presume with the Mark III, besides adding some stills using the Ken Burns effect one could effectively use the Mark III as a B-cam when there is time between your shots. Depending on how the cameras match, there could still be the bokeh issue though. I don't know if Premiere does multi-cam edits but in FCPX it's literally a snap.

As for the "How to be a filmmaker" video that Dave linked to, it's funny (unfortunately) because there's a heck of a lot of truth to it. Note the opening where it says "Buy a camera ….. repeat as necessary", and again later on at ~ 0:38 where the guy is taking a picture of his gear/kit. Very true.

The two main cams that have been suggested don't come with a mic except for the built-in one. It's been said that "two-thirds of good video is good audio" so the mic another acquisition item to be considered. Just as an artist doesn't paint with one brush, neither does one capture good audio with just one mic, and (adding insult to injury) good mics aren't cheap. Don't know what you've got now for a mic kit but for starters the Røde Stereo Video mic is good and work up (start collecting) from there. It'd be a good mic for the home videos.

The husband & wife team is a good one and my wife definitely sees things from a different angle than I do. Ours is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

@ Noa - Unfortunately I forgot to use the sarcasm font yet again, but given the thread drift, that link seemed to be "right" to lighten the mood!

The OP was asking whether to consider a video camera addition to his cameras, to better add video to his "stills" service package - something a number of us here do, with "two man" (or husband and wife) teams, so it's a viable thing to do. Then the question is "which one", again something many of us here can offer suggestions about. Where the drift off into shutter speeds and film making styles came from, not really sure...

I think we've already given the considerations - having matching "looks" and color handling to OP's existing cameras is a concern, and there are a number of cameras that should meet the needs, both for function and for the budget.

Video cameras do tend to be a little to a lot better for shooting video than a still camera with video functions. and vary between models and brands One really should put "hands on" before a final purchase decision, and it's not a bad idea to go find the manual online for any camera being considered, so when it's "hands on" you aren't fumbling around learning where things are, but rather testing to see if the camera "feels" comfortable.

One other thought, since this is a "new" addition to an existing venture, probably better not to overspend on any purchase, no matter how tempting, just in case it doesn't work out... (try as I may, my wife just isn't interested in shooting video, for instance, but her interests and skills for stills are excellent).

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

@ John -

Yes, audio is a "new" consideration for adding video into OP's business, but I think he would primarily need to consider how to capture vows and speeches, which are better suited to small close mic'ing solutions of one sort or another (wireless lav and digital pocket recorder with lav are the two popular "solutions"), since it's only a matter of time before "house audio" bites one in the backside...

Depending on his ultimate "style", ambient audio may not even be in the "mix"? I've got good shotguns, but the quality of in camera mics on my current cameras is quite adequate (I've had cams where it was unusable). I'd sooner buy a good digital recorder/lav combo if I were building a "wedding kit". Events, that would be an entirely different animal!

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Dave - You're right about the style. With regard to the mic, or mics, I WAS going to write something about the various mic alternatives but since it really hadn't been brought up I didn't want to delve into that - both from a time-factor on my part (working on an edit project as I write this, de-noise with a frame-size-change), and the fact that Phil hadn't mentioned anything about audio (that I remember) so he may already have a/some mic(s).

However, a cam with an empty mic holder would look kinda, er, shall we say, funny? Noa is trying to keep everybody fixated on the camera, bless his heart, but I've got a bit of a planner gene that causes me to look ahead. I hear this from my wife a lot "Don't worry about it!" (said in a loud voice) But I can't help it 'cuz I hate telling her "I told you so." Plus, she doesn't like hearing it.

If this wife-with-the-cam thing becomes entrenched I can just see it now: "Honey, get outa my frame!" (those photographers! mumble, mumble)

I've got this crystal ball I'm looking into as I write this and …. what do I see? It's clearing up …. yes! It's there, I see it … it's 1917 …. a brand new SUV in the driveway! Yup! Gotta have that new SUV to carry all the video stuff! Okay, so maybe it's not exactly new (spent all that money on kit), but at least newer.

Oops, can't believe I actually wrote this. Noa, can you give me a little slack??? Please?

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Maybe because that was what Phil asked for in the first place? Some suggestions about a good camera that shoots well in auto while having enough manual settings to improve skills as time progresses. If he would have asked for sound solutions I would have give my opinion as well, but he didn't. Also, when you do weddings, the easiest way to get good sound is by using external recorders and sync the sound up in post. I have had camera's with build in xlr but never have used those, except when I was recording danceperformances from a fixed location. I guess, based on Phil questions, they are just starting out with video and he soon will have to dig deeper into sound as well if it is their intention to improve on that and that will need a separate thread. But there are several photogs in my country offering video with no attention to sound, except just ambient sound which the camera records and they seem to be able to sell that as well.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Thanks for all the input guys, been away for a few days but now time to catch up.

I became interested in video as a hobby at first, I shot a family 21st party, used stills and Video, put it together and although there were glaring errors everyone loved it. As an old time stills shooter I felt video was very exciting and challenging.

As a stills shooter who shoots weddings, I have starting taking odd clips of video to add to the Photo Films I produce. I quickly became aware that although it may be a nice addition to just stills that my clips were merely static clips of people moving. Not where I want to be.

As my wife assists me with weddings, the idea is for her to develop the video side of things. What then became apparent is that 5D's were not the easiest tools to learn your trade on. Secondly, we feel one person should be dedicated to stills and one to video.

So we have dabbled here and there with some M 4/3 gear (GX7, G6) but I feel due to lack of experience that going to a Dedicated Video camera will ease the learning curve and enable her to concentrate on the basics while she learns her trade. Initially we want well composed, well exposed, stable and in focus footage, then we can develop from there.

Reference audio, we have a zoom H1 and a lav mic which we have used a few times. So recording of vows, speeches would be done with this.

Thanks for all the advice in this thread, it's been most enlightening.

Phil

Added
My initial thoughts are: A consumer cam such as an X920 to set up as a static camera at events, weddings, with an AC90 on a monopod (if needed?) used for capturing things on the fly. Thus two relatively easy Cams to use as opposed to DSLR.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

I have had the g6 and eventhough it's a great little dslr with many video oriented features it's a difficult tool to shoot weddings with, like all dslr's.

I also use handicams ( sony cx730's) to shoot my weddings and eventhough some might think people won't take you seriously or that they are for amateurs these are the only cameras I have that allow me to focus on content and be sure that when I get home my footage is in focus, has a good whitebalance, good exposure, good framing, good stabilization and at the end of the day, that's all that matters. But I don't consider these camera's good to learn to shoot video right, they are semi auto camera's and have limited manual control, you can control exposure, whitebalance etc but it's much more difficult then with a real videocamera as you often have to go through the lcd screen instead of having actual physical buttons on the camera, sometimes you also can't control all functions separately but have to choose between the one or other.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

@Phil -

FWIW, an H1 is a little big to fit in some pockets, but should work - smaller digital recorders are cheap enough.

As Noa notes, small "Handycams" serve a great purpose to get "set and forget" footage, but can be fiddly to adjust - there just isn't a lot of room for controls on tiny bodies!

BUT the CX/PJ series Sonys with the magic eyeball/BOSS image stabilizers are pretty sweet for handheld - the AX33 is the current 4K iteration of the CX730 Noa mentions, I've used the PJ7xx variants myself. Others have mentioned similar Canon and Panasonic cameras, they serve many of us well. Probably not a bad "toe in the water", though if it were me, I'd go for the AX100 for the better manual controls - still fairly small and light, but a lot more camera, even if it's not 3 rings, XLRs and all that...

I've found the AX100 very easy and "natural" to run manual, and due to the potential for stutter in 4K/30p if the shutter runs too high, I like to set shutter and make manual adjustments as needed, the camera can run auto around whichever things you set manually, so it's really the best of both worlds. It's probably at the outer end of your budget, you'll need extra batteries, etc., and maybe your wife might get hands on and prefer Panny or Canon! But I think you should at least take a close look at the AX100, I find mine very easy to shoot with... I believe Noa has one as well?

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Yes, I do have a ax100 also, excellent camera, my cx730"s also match very well with that camera except for detail.

Also, if you plan on buying a camera and if it has 4K, don't let people talk you out of it, you can always shoot 1080p with and use 4K when you are ready for it or when you want to give it a try, 4k has many benefits of which cropping into the frame without visual loss of detail is my favorite and the fact you can pull usable frames with sufficient resolution for photo's.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

To be fair Peter is in a different business from most others on this forum. He is a good photographer who is offering "cctv like recordings of a ceremony and speeches only" for free. It's a great USP when competing against other photographers & prevents the couple hiring a videographer to get in the way.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

If you quote me it might be good to include Peter's comment as well which led to my reaction because now it looks like it was my only intention to denigrate his way of working. My "cctv" comment was not ment in a negative way, even I use that approach partially during ceremonies, just pointing several camera's to a fixed position and let them roll unmanned.

It was actually Peter who was very clear about how he felt about almost all weddingvidegraphers out there who try to create weddingfilms that have a more creative approach, everyone has a different approach to making wedding video but it's good to be a bit more open minded about it instead of starting to insult people just because you see it in another way.

I mean if I would say that in general there is a lot of over-engineering going on in wedding photo production and that viewed from a distance it often looks like an indulgence by closet hobbyists and has little to do with emotional content. Would you agree with that, knowing you are a photographer also?

But anyways, I"m not going to react to this anymore but if you want to discuss good starter camera's I"d be happy to give my opinion if that can help Phil.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

The AX100 has thrown a spanner in the works, I had not considered that and I rather like it

My only observation is the AF appears slowish, I would be interested in any user experiences on how they find the AX100

As previously discussed ease of use with the ability to go manual as the wife progresses.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

The autofocus on the ax100 is OKish :) Marc who is also active on this forum posted a video about it:

I use the touch focus a lot on the ax100, just touch the screen to wherever you want the camera to focus on and that works quite good. I haven't used any other focus aids on this camera, only shoot in autofocus and use touch focus if I want to be sure it doesn't start to drift on it's own.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

And another one for the focustracking which I haven't used yet:

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

You misunderstand. I meant no insult to you Noa. In fact as I recall I first described Peter's videos as like CCTV some time ago & he disliked my description then. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-...ml#post1812484 As I commented on that thread:

I don't think that there is any comparison between what Peter offers for free & anyone else on the forum who has video as main their offering. I think that Roger & Chris on occasion do some photography while doing video as a single operator but it's still video that is their main offering. In fact you might as well compare one of Peter's beautiful photographic wedding albums with an selection of screenshots from a video. It's just not the same business proposition. It's a great USP & freezes out all those creative wedding videographers who would get in the way.

BTW wedding videographers shouldn't be too upset by Peter's put-downs as if you read his posts you will realise that he doesn't think much of most other wedding photographers either:-)

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

I was also involved in the debate with Peter. I'd like to say that I am actually a great admirer of Peter's work; he balances Photo and Video very well and I'd say a good inspiration for other Photographers adding Video to their service. Obviously doing both carries certain limitations and I'd say this shows up more in his video work, which I personally don't have a problem with.
Where perhaps there is conflict is when Peter makes these rather strong comments that imply that any Video work or style that differs from his own, is a case of the Videographer putting creativity over the needs of their clients, when I'd say it's more the work of someone giving video 100% rather than just 50.

Forums tend to invite debate and reaction, but I do worry that whilst some here will take Peter's comments with a pinch of salt; others more new to video could take it more seriously. Such as his remark that the shutter rule is for hobbyists only. Advice I certainly would not have benefited from when starting out.

Returning to the original thread. Thanks for the links to the Sony AX100 Noa, I'm looking to buy a couple this year, so I've already downloaded the original 4K file to play with. Obviously the camera lacks XLR inputs, but unless you're working with wireless mics, I'd think it's a good option for Phil as it is for me.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

The 2 videos I posted are not the only ones Mark posted, he has around 20 ax100 videos on his vimeo channel where you can download the 4K master as well to have a better idea about the IQ.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

You don't need XLR inputs if you are using wireless mics. The advantage of XLR balanced inputs is when using long leads & minimising interference but if the wireless receiver is on the camera then the question is moot. Actually I just Googled on some images f the AX100 & can't see a cold shoe so I am not certain how you would mount a wireless receiver in any case.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Fair do's. I suppose I should have said proper audio inputs with separate volume controls. I maybe wrong, but when there are XLR / large jack inputs on cameras, you usually get a lovely selection of audio controls to quickly adjust those inputs, including those of any wireless mics. I can plug my Seinheisser G3 into my GH4, but alas whilst I can monitor audio levels during recording, I can't adjust them live. Does the AX100 have that facility, to adjust the audio levels on inputs during recording? It's not an issue for me as the AX100 are to be secondary locked off cameras, but I suppose if Phil did invest in any wirless mic, it would be an issue for him and where the AC-90 excels.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

I agree with Steve that adjusting audio on cameras with no XLRs is often much more difficult. I have a Canon G20 and I only use it for reference audio because there are no dials to adjust volume. On my C100s I have XLRs with manual dials that make it much more convenient.

If I were buying a camera and I knew I needed to monitor audio I would definitely spend the extra money to get one with XLR inputs. However, I'm sure there are people that have had success adjusting audio with cameras that have a 3.5mm jack but I'm not one of them :)

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

The AX100 seems to have Sony's proprietary hot shoe that only fits sony accessories - same as CX730/PJXXX Cameras. The official Sony adapters to standard cold shoe are very expensive, you can get copies from ebay but the quality is variable to say thre least.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

On the sony site I see that the Multi-Interface Shoe Adapter is only 25 dollar, haven't looked at the ax100 accessory list before but I see some interesting stuff, but at expensive prices :)

Like that Bluetooth Microphone (transmitter) or that Remote Control Tripod.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Let me clarify the "shoe'" question....

Older Sony cams used a proprietary shoe referred to as "AiS" or advanced interface shoe - it was an odd size, but you could pick up Chinese adapters quite cheaply to turn it into a cold shoe. The AIS shoe has 10 contacts allowing one to buy SONY accessories that interface to it, including a couple different mics and a bluetooth wireless mic (again proprietary). The contacts are mirrored in the A/V jack interface, more or less.

Cue forward to the current generation Sony cameras... in 2013-2014 Sony abandoned the old proprietary Minolta shoe on the Alpha SLT cameras, and at the same time abandoned the AiShoe, replacing both with a new MiShoe (Multi interface shoe), which shares general dimensions with a traditional shoe (with a notable exception on the AX100, where the shoe is "keyed"). Again, the 10 contacts as above are present for SONY accessories, mirrored in the "MULTI" port, which is actually a micro USB with a second row of 10 contacts which are accessed by special SONY accessory cables.

All that said, unless you are a bit of a hacker, accessing the functionality on the ports with anything other than SONY accessories is hit or miss, and there are notable differences between the Sony MULTI port between Sony divisions (Cybershot/Alpha/Handycam). I have that W1M, and it does have a mic input on the transmitter, seems to sort of work with a couple of the lavs I have, but not others... it's in the kit "just in case", but I've grown fond of small digital recorders...



And after all that, I remember I was going to post my simple and cheap "DIY" shoe adapters for the AX100, and was never able to upload photos... I have a single, and a triple, less than $20 to buy the parts, and about 15 minutes with a small moto-tool, they work great to add a cold shoe/shoes for lights/mic/whatever...

Sadly, I STILL cannot upload files successfully... so I can't show off my spiffy cold shoe adapter/mounts! I know Chris tried to fix it... but still broken, I guess. I'll try from a different computer if anyone is really that interested!

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

And Phil, sorry to toss a wrench in the gears <wink> (US for spanner in the works!), but I'll admit to rather liking the overall "package" and balance that the AX100 represents. It replaced several other cameras for me, and honestly I enjoy shooting with it a LOT, with the 4K quality being a huge bonus once I worked the kinks out of shutter speed!

I may pick up an AX33 somewhere along the way for what it does (Magic Eyeball IS!), but it would be a complementary cam... and an RX Cybershot with 4K would be my preferred choice, should one ever become available, or should firmware ever appear to upgrade the ones I've already GOT!

There are certain cameras that just seem to get most everything "right", and the AX100 and RX10 are two that hit that sweet spot - neither is "perfect", but the quibbles are generally so small that once you start using them, you are too "busy" enjoying shooting again that you forget the minor "bumps". I do still spit nails at Sony for not implementing 4K in the RX10 and RX100, as they would better round out the "kit" with the AX100, but the 1080/60p XAVCS is quite nice...

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Thanks for all the feedback, one area that initially concerns is AF

Will the AX100 when in auto focus follow a Bride and groom when walking up the aisle.

Thanks Phil

My choice AX100
 

I went for an AX100 in the end, thanks to all the input from everyone, should be here tomorrow.

also bagged an EM5 ll to play with

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

The dof of a ax100 will be a lot deeper then a 5dIII so focus should not be so much of a issue, you also will notice very soon it will be impossible to match up the em5II and the ax100 if you plan on using them together for videon the resolution difference will be very obvious.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Thanks Noa, the EM5 will my carry everywhere camera won't be used for video except a bit of fun stuff, I'll be getting a second Camcorder at some point to compliment the AX100

Possibly will be an AXP33, or maybe an RX10 people seem to like those unless there are any other suggestions for matching with the Ax100

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Stick with the same brand unless colour editing is your thing. Plus any additional camera you look to buy, just try and find some original footage via Vimeo; or even Youtube if the former doesn't reveal anything. Download the files and work with them in the edit suite. I'm doing much the same with AX100 footage that I've downloaded, and which I'm testing against my GH4.