Good starter Cam for Video
 

I shoot still Photography weddings with my wife as an assistant.

I have started to do some video work on a few family events (21st birthday, christening etc) and generally make a fusion piece from the stills and video. I see this progressing in future. My wife tends to shoot the video with myself on the stills.

For stills I use 5D MK111's and XE2, but want to find something easy to use for my wife for the video footage we capture.

So our requirements while she learns is something easy to use, good stabilisation, good AF with options to go manual as she progresses her skills for video (and mine)

I have tripods and monopods when required but we would like something suitable for run and gun type footage. Having been reading many threads on here I am wondering if a camcorder might be worth considering which tend to have good AF and stabilisation with good auto options and manual control options as her skill set increases.

I would appreciate any advice on what you guys feel may be is suitable, as for budget, up to £1200 ish.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

If you're not looking for a large sensor camera (as in larger than 1") then you may want to look at the Sony X70 and the Canon XA20. Both of these cameras will have very good AF and built in stabilization which will be great for run and gun. They also include XLR inputs which is very important for recording clean audio into the camera. These both have manual controls so you can go to strictly manual when you need to.

I will mention that the image from pretty much any camcorder is going to have more of a "video look" than a DSLR or Cinema Camera. By this I mean that the highlights, bokeh, and overall look will not have as much of the "film look" as a large sensor DSLR. However, shooting video on a DSLR has a steeper learning curve when starting out, so it may be worth sacrificing some of the "film look" in order to ensure she does not get frustrated during the first few months of shooting.

Just as a side note, the Sony X70 will be getting a 4K upgrade in the coming months so if you have any desire to shoot in 4K then that would be a better option.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

The x70 is almost twice the price Phil wants to spend on a camera if he would get the 4K upgrade as well, the xa20 looks like a nice one that is within budget and a very good starter cam that has a few pro features like xlr input, a good review about the camera I found below.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Thank you Micheal for your input

We did try the 5D 111's but they were not user friendly enough, so I appreciate the feedback on video look. My first concern is to give here something to use that is not to technical and builds confidence without having to worry about missed focus, exposure slightly out ect. and can concentrate on getting good footage to put together in editing.

We can practise the more arty stuff on the 5D's etc in time

Phil

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Noa

Many thanks for that, I have been considering options and looking about all night.

There appears to be a couple of consumer models.
Panasonic X920 and Canon G30 are these to limiting in the features. I noticed also the new Panasonic 970 in 4K is due out.

One other model comes to mind
The Panasonic AC90 came up as I was wading through You Tube reviews, I have little knowledge of camcorders

I have also used some mirror less previously but used them for stills hardly touching the video functions, GH3,
and EM1, however I am not sure these would be that much easier to use for video

What about some of the later mirror less options, how user friendly are they:
RX10, FZ1000, LX100, any others? or again to fiddly?

I think initially top of the list for me is good AF with very good stabilisation, easy to pick up and use.

Phil

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Yes, the ac90 is also a very good camera considering it's price and the videofeatures you get in return, I"d consider this one a even better start cam as the xa20 as it does have better functionality like 3 rings on the lens and more function buttons on the body.

A GH3 or EM1 is a dslr but like any dslr it will be much more difficult to shoot video with it, if you have the time to set up your shots you can get some very nice looking footage out of it but it's not a easy camera to work with like the panna ac90, you have a 5DIII so you should know it's a handfull to shoot video with, the results can be stunning in capable hands but it's not exactly a easy camera to learn to shoot video with.

The RX10, FZ1000, LX100 all produce nice images but again, they are not like a ac90 which I would consider a real videocamera. As soon as you start shooting with a dslr or pocket camera you will run into limitations, often in functionality, there is no substitute for having a nice motorized variable speed zoom, decent autofocus if you would need it, continuous long recording times without fear of the camera overheating, good control over all the camera functions from outside the camera, xlr input, 3 ring control over zoom, iris and focus on the lens etc and a dslr doesn't give you that, a dslr will force you to buy many accessories to make it a production ready camera.

The AC90 is not a perfect camera because it doesn't have a build in nd filters but to learn to operate a proper video camera I think it's about the cheapest you can get.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

I use my AC90 frequently.

It would be an excellent choice because it can do everything well on auto and you can gradually dip your toe in the water to learn the various manual functions.

Also, crucially for weddings, it makes the right impression on prospective clients. It looks the part without being huge. If you only have small cams - which I also use a lot - there will be a proportion of people who don't take you seriously regardless of the cams performance.

Its not too big to go on a monopod or too big to be comfortable on a shoulder strap just like a stills body.

You could fit neutral density filters including variable ones but quite honestly why would you for weddings? Is it that important to get the shutter speed down to 1/50th from 1/500th at a bright sunny wedding reception?

I would not get involved in 4k at all. You're just making a rod for your own back with little in the way of upside. Chances are you would have to upgrade your main PC with extra RAM, SSD, graphics card, processor, storage, etc and still be left high and dry when trying to edit multicam footage in real time - which you inevitably would want to do as you add extra smaller cams for ceremony coverage etc.

It would be a good idea to get The AC90 Book by Barry Green:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You can also contact him via the DVXuser.com forum.

Pete

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Hi Pete

The AC90 is excellent as a sub $2000 camera ...you get an awful lot of camera for your money and it behaves itself in auto if everything goes pear shaped. In fact I nearly bought two instead of my EA-50's but the fact that there is no auto audio function on the XLR's was the only downfall ... manually adjusting audio levels at a reception for me would be tough as the levels in the room change all the time

As for shutter speed I think that "keep your shutter at 1/50 or 1/100" is highly overrated ..I have yet to see any ill effects using a higher shutter at a wedding ...inside it will be 1/50th anyway and in the sunshine I have shot bridal arrival and forgotten to stop down and the shutter screamed up to 1/1000th and the footage wasn't affected at all ... sure a high shutter may freeze motion if it's high enough but as far as I know we don't have motor racing at weddings ...it's all slow and graceful so a higher than 1/100th shutter won't even be noticed!!! If it's REALLY bright like a white beach or snow then an ND might be worthwhile so the aperture doesn't start affecting the tiny 1/5" chips

Still a good buy and easy peasy to use as a point and shoot camera too in full auto ...it's a wedding so you are looking for content not technical perfection

Chris

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

For weddings? I only have small camera's, little handicams, a gopro on a stick, small m4/3 camera's with even smaller tiny lenses, weddingsclients only care about the result and you being unobtrusive, they don't care what camera you use. I used to have a nex-ea50, in size that's like holding a bazooka and the only thing I noticed was that guests where intimidated by it and noticed me coming from a mile away. Since I switched to small camera's the only thing I hear they didn't even knew I was there. Weddingclients will take you seriously if you are able to deliver, no matter what camera and equipment you use.

For people to have natural motion you should use a appropriate shutter, video is not like photography where you use higher shutters so you don't have any motionblur, also, at very bright locations even resorting to very high shutterspeeds to compensate can still not be enough meaning you have close down your iris as well but maybe you don't want that and you want to have a shallow dof and open up the iris, in such cases you can't do without a ND filter.

But I do have to say that the nature of weddings often force me, and I"m sure others, to not use a ND filter because it's just to difficult if you have to work fast in changing lightconditions, it works faster just using the shutter to compensate and to get the shot and the client will not notice that you didn't use a filter.

I have said this many times here, in my case I did not have to upgrade anything at all to work with 4K, I can work with one stream of 4K in realtime, even with colorcorecting and can do multicam with 2 other 1080p streams. The problem only starts when I use 2 streams of 4K in a multi-cam but even then I can just convert to a intermediate codec.
Getting a 4K camera (the ax100) has been my best investment yet because of it's ability to crop into the image without quality-loss, it has given me possibilities that where not possible before and has certainly improved the quality of my work when shooting ceremonies solo. Second advantage is when extracting framegrabs which look much better then 1080p frames.
I think people should start embracing the advantage 4K has instead of always finding reasons why it is not good, 4K may not be for everyone depending on what you use it for but for weddings and especially as a solo shooter or for running unmanned camera's 4K is awesome. :) If next year a 8K camera would come out and if it would be priced right, I"d be the first to get it, as long as I can deliver in 1080p to my clients I consider 4K a advantage and just incase someone would request a 4K master, I"m at least ready for it as well though I don't see that happening that soon.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

no auto audio function on the XLR's was the only downfall ... manually adjusting audio levels at a reception for me would be tough as the levels in the room change all the time

There is of course the onboard mic for auto; or the possibility of recording to two different channels at different Levels via XLR – thereby bypassing any danger of the auto levels function misjudging. Or a separate recorder of course, easily placed in the hotshoe on a small ball and socket head, then quickly and easily synced in post with Pluraleyes.

As for shutter speed I think that "keep your shutter at 1/50 or 1/100" is highly overrated ..I have yet to see any ill effects using a higher shutter at a wedding

Yep. For me that is hobbyist territory, stuff people have read on all the dSLR wannabee filmaker forums that sprang up, banging on endlessly about a film look being most desirable.

I only have small camera's, little handicams, a gopro on a stick, small m4/3 camera's with even smaller tiny lenses, weddingsclients only care about the result and you being unobtrusive

You're kidding yourself if you think that it doesn't matter to a proportion of prospective clients whose first exposure to you is seeing you work at a wedding they are attending as guests. This is well documented by many photographers who have switched from housebrick pro dSLRs to smaller mirrorless cameras. Even many years ago it mattered – someone might be dismissive of you holding that tiny camera until they got closer and saw the telltale red Leica emblem on it :- ) It becomes a value judgement – do I use the latest (smallest) gear because it better suite the way I want to work or do I weight things more towards what peoples expectations of my appearance might be. In both cases you absolutely must be as unintrusive as possible.

guests where intimidated by it and noticed me coming from a mile away. Since I switched to small camera's the only thing I hear they didn't even knew I was there

The AC90 is small enough not to be intimidating and works great on a monopod balanced on your waist. The built in stabilisation is very well regarded and anything more extreme can be corrected in Mercalli 4 so equipment movement is seldom an issue. My shoulder rig gets no use what so ever. That with a dSLR on it plus audio recorder etc was a complete waste of time in terms of getting natural un-camera aware shots.

For people to have natural motion you should use a appropriate shutter, video is not like photography where you use higher shutters so you don't have any motionblur, also, at very bright locations even resorting to very high shutterspeeds to compensate can still not be enough meaning you have close down your iris as well but maybe you don't want that and you want to have a shallow dof and open up the iris, in such cases you can't do without a ND filter

There is no such thing as natural motion, only the type of motion people are used to seeing in films, and even then only when its pointed out to them; except at the extremes of course. Bruce Dorn, the Canon Explorer of Light and one-time Hollwood film crew, demonstrated this years ago with his tuts. filmed at a wild west rodeo using Canon 5D II's with various lenses and shutter speeds.

Cams like the AC90 are never going to give me anything like the narrow depth of field I can achieve with say my 5D's and 50mm f1.2L, trying to use filters to get anywhere near is just pointless. Inappropriately narrow DOF dressed up as art is a plague in both the stills and video world – but thats another subject :- )

The F8 Challenge (3 Pics) - FM Forums

f/8 and be there - interesting read !!! - FM Forums

The problem only starts (with 4k) when I use 2 streams of 4K in a multi-cam but even then I can just convert to a intermediate codec

But 2 streams is nothing!!! I'd be very surprised if most shooters use less than 3 during the main events like the ceremony and speeches. I routinely use 4 and sometimes 5. Not to mention the extra step and space with using an intermediate codec; I used Cineform, soon got frustrated with that! So it is a killer that negates any advantage from being able to crop etc.

Pete

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Its hardly hobbyist stuff using a 1/50 or 1/100 shutter. Like Photography, there are rules to good cinematography. They exist for a reason. Yes they can be ignored by seasoned professionals knowing when and where to break them. However anyone who dismisses the rules completely is hardly a professional in my book, more an amateur.

I've invested in a new 4k TV and I have to say what I could get away with on my old TV is not the same with the new one. Poor image sharpness not withstanding, poor motion capture by longer shutter speeds shows up more on the new TV. It Judders more than regular shutter speeds.

I've done work not just for Brides but Production Companies too, some of whom create material for broadcast. I would hardly getaway with a that'll do attitude to my work with some of my clients. Perhaps some of you here aren't dealing with such people. I'm not sure whether to be jealous or sorry for you. It never hurts to raise your game once in awhile and I can only advise to take a long hard look at Cinematography and understand why these rules exist first before going out and just dismissing this as hobbyist.

I'm currently filming 4k and use it now on every shoot. The advantages of cropping for an HD delivery are just too useful for me to accept an HD camera now. My last filming assignment was a definite case in point. Dark interior, stuck at the far back with even my 35 to 100 lens on a GH4 not quite reaching far enough. Cropping down allowed me to focus my image on individual speakers in the panel on stage, something HD just couldn't handle on its own. Plus I was asked for stills from the video. For me 4k isn't a luxery. Its how I work and I wouldn't change it for anything. Incidentally no one has commented on my gh4 not being suitable and that goes for corporate work too. But then I have a wide range of professional gear to back me up and the confidence in my delivery to not need a larger camera to compensate.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Hi Pete

Very fair comments! I still don't get the shutter speed obsession that people seem to have..but then again I STILL shoot in 50i at weddings and drop the footage onto a 25P timeline and it works well ...Using 50P maybe shutter speed IS critical ...I'm not sure. What I do know is that when things are going crazy at weddings and the limo arrives 15 minutes earlier than it should I have to get the shot so the last thing I worry about is my settings ...if I have to get the shot at 1/1500th then so be it .. better than missing the shot cos you were fiddling with camera settings!!!

Yes there is a workaround for the AC90 with the XLR channel but I still amazed that Panny never kept the normal auto/manual switches like all my other cameras!! I still like my on camera shotgun to record in auto as again getting the shot is more important than fiddling with audio levels. I once met a bride who was complaining bitterly about her photog "All he did was fiddle with his frigging camera instead of taking photos which he was paid to do"

I shoot a minimum of 3 cameras at a ceremony and I know for a fact my computer with Vegas would choke with three lots of 4K footage ... Just for interest if one did have to deliver 4K on disk would a BD disk handle 4K video or is a huge USB drive the only option.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Oh come on Steve, if you know as much about cinematography as you purport to do (and yes I am returning your snarky criticism in kind!) you'd know shutter speed defaults are grounded in history as much as anything.

I wonder also if you are aware of the concept of over-engineering. Years ago this was brought home to me by personal experience. My Jag Sovereign was in for maintenance and I ventured into a Mercedes dealership for a nose around. The salesman (thought he did not of course call himself that) sniffily announced that Merc had spent more money developing their rear axle than Jag (before Ford) had spent on their entire car. So what? Both cars performed great. His was boring, the Jag had personality. The concept that they had over-engineered their rear axles was lost on him.

There is an awful lot of over-engineering goes on in wedding video production. Viewed from a distance it often looks like an indulgence by closet hobbyists and has little to do with emotional content.

Its all relative anyway. How much of your kit of which you are so proud meets the current BBC minimum spec for broadcast? Are you moving into the 10k-30k cam bracket as the work piles up? Anyone can broadcast anything just as a photo in a newspaper doesn't make you a newspaper photographer.

Don't feel sorry for me. Should I feel sorry for you? Grabs for the video in a "professional" environment? Really?

If you can't accept that some clients judge you partly by the equipment you're using thats your problem not mine. Incidentally I use small stuff when I can. I recently removed the battery grips from my 5D's which originally I needed as the change from the 1D series bodies in which they are integrated was too much. They had been on the 5D's so long I had to remove one with a hacksaw :- )

Pete

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Right... :D Sorry Peter, but this comment says a lot about your knowledge about the most basic rules in videography and you are saying they are only applied by wannabee filmmakers, really :)

If you work for corporate clients I agree with you, for weddingclients not, it only means you need a bigger camera to make it appear you must be good but it can also mean you are insecure about the quality of your work and you want the size of the camera to compensate for that, my clients only choose me for my work and they never ever question my camera's or the fact that I use a handicam. Maybe in the photography world bigger is better but in videography you are only judged by the work you deliver, not by the tools you use. I also don't tell my clients what camera's I use nor do I say so on my website, I just let my work speak for itself.


I can use two 1080p and one 4K native stream with no issue in a multicam sequence and can use several 4K streams in a multicam if I use Edius HQavi codec, the hqavi codec does introduce much larger files but I can reserve 1 harddrive for one project only and delete the hqfiles after the edit is done and replace them with the native files only in case I need to make a change later which very seldom happens so that's a 100 dollar investment in a harddrive. I don't see what the issue is here, just pick the right workflow, minimum extra cost, max benefit because the HQavi codec cuts like butter.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

You are actually insulting about any weddingvideographer out there with this statement, not everyone makes cctv like recordings of a ceremony and speeches only like you do and I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's just about the most basic and simple form of recording a event with multiple unmanned camera's. There is nothing wrong in delivering those long recordings only if your client is happy with that but there is a big difference in only supplying a few hours continuous recording of longer events or delivering a 20 minute film where you piece together all parts of a day and try to capture the emotion and mix it into a compelling piece which a couple will watch over and over again with their family and friends over the next years to come, I just don't see them do the same with a one hour ceremony or one hour speeches, that's only a memory for the couple and a reason to use the remote control to fast forward with family and friends.
Just to give you another example, my last trailer which I posted in the wedding forum was viewed 1200 times on the bride's facebook in 24 hours, that's the power of a over-engineered video :) That will lead into new inquiries and I"m sure they don't care what camera's where used to make the video.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Peter, your position doesn't come across as one based on understanding. You seem to attack anything you're unable to deliver yourself, be it for equipment limitations or lack of time due to juggling photo and video. Its hard to accept any view of yours as objective or with any respect for cinematography and the skills involved. There is no shame in there being compromise in event filming, but equally no shame in trying to overcome those limitations to produce something that respects the rules and uses them to deliver content of an emotional nature. Contrary to your opinion, respecting the rules doesn't mean sacrificing content or the emotion. In fact, in cases it can enhance it.

My gh3 and 4 technically meets broadcast standards in regards to Mbps, however that's not an issue. I've seen gopros used in TV shows. No my point wasn't about broadcast quality equipment, but that some of my clients wouldn't appreciate your cavalier attitude to cinematography.

I'm sure some of my clients judge me on my equipment. However my equipment is more than just a single camera and I'm judged on the range of my equipment, rather than the size of one item within it. Personally if any client questions my gh4, once they see the footage, all doubts are erased. I do own larger cameras, so my choice is dictated by impressing clients with video quality, not the size of my camera.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

You guys are unbelievable, just beyond belief.

You should get yourselves up to BVE, tomorrow is the last day so you've just got time. You might come away a little more modest.

I've noticed of course your glee in jumping in at any opportunity to denigrate the style of coverage I offer, and questioning whether I can do anything else. Comments about professionalism sprinkled here and there. I stayed out of the recent one man operator thread for just that reason. There was no point in participating, but for the record I put online samples of what an average client might expect to receive, same as I do for stills; I do not believe in only showing the best of the best e.g. I don't think any of my video samples involve lavs, but rather closely placed audio recorders as these give the prospective clients a clearer understanding of what they might get audio wise taking into account all the challenges that might screw up perfect audio on the day.

1200 views. So what? 1200 views right through? 1200 clicks? 1200 glowing testimonials. I don't know why Noa you would think that people might watch a short but not a long in future years. I hear both, but weighted to favouring long. I have no interest in shorts; in my view the heavy scripting and setting up that often seems to accompany these have made "modern" wedding videos far worse than the traditional stuff on VHS of yesteryear ever was.

Client feedback is at its most valuable once months have elapsed after the wedding and the clients have had the opportunity to absorb what they've got and what they haven't got. Hyping them up at the consultation stage means nothing, nor does feedback immediately after the delivery. Nothing.

Photographers are in a great position to appreciate this. Or rather photographers who supply albums are - and there aren't many of us who actually do that rather than just saying we do. Photographers who supply albums AND allow lots of client participation in the design process to be specific. Typically the clients image selection comes in weeks or months - or even years - after the event. And guess what? All that the clients say at the consultation stage about wanting natural candid reportage coverage goes out the window. Their selections are dominated by classic posed stuff and I add some lower key stuff to round it off. Here are three albums I uploaded in the last month. See how much is posed, yet all of them had plenty of alternative material:

Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright

Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright

Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright

That last one, they've ordered two copies of the full-on main album. Oh and Blueray of the video.

You can ignore these facts but thats all you are doing - ignoring facts.

I've tried to widen the tunnel vision that is so apparent here but I'm tired of the personal slights. Why should I bother? Do you really think that I talk about big equipment to clients? Just the opposite, I stress how small and unintrusive it is. I why should I bother responding to posts that question my knowledge and competence just because I don't trot out the same old received wisdom found elsewhere in the new wave. Recently one of my strongest critics second shot for a videographer friend. He failed to deliver any usable footage at all. None. And yes the friend is totally "cinematic" and very busy with high end clients.

Anyway, I'm out of here. Goodbye. Wish it had been enjoyable.

Pete

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Actually I've just finished a day at the BVE. Very informative some of the seminars and I enjoyed chatting to some genuine experts in the field of cinematography. I was mainly interested in the 4k theatre, though the session on live events in 4k wasn't as I'd hoped. Mostly a list of gear they use. Anyway I did ask one speaker, if he felt the 180 degree shutter rule was for hobbyists. He laughed.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Didn't make a denigrating comment, you however where quite clear about what you think about us closet hobbyists :)

That's 1200 different people that actually play the video, not embedded loads and it also doesn't register if someone plays twice from the same ip address, I can 't see if they completely watch the video but I figure there is more chance that they do compared to a one hour ceremony if I'd place that online. If just a very small percentage of those 1200 people would contact me or maybe refer me to someone who is asking if they know a videographer, my year would be partly booked, so I don't need glowing testimonials, just a few minutes of screentime. It might be not for you but it works very well for me and a lot of other videographers that use social media as a marketing tool.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

To get back on topic, the Sony AX100 has not been mentioned - it's the consumer version of the X70, already has 4K, and has manual if you want, auto if you need "brain dead simple". I think it should be at the top end of the price range, but still in the ballpark?


As for the thread, size only matters to those that feel inadequate with shooting skills... I just watched a news segment about a major prime time US sitcom that is airing an entire show shot with ipads and iphones... the producer just flat out said these consumer devices produced a professional enough result for their show... he was asked specifically by the reporter, who was wondering if they were as good as the "big cameras"... perhaps a "little" exagerrated, and the theme of this particular episode seemed to revolve around overuse of "face time", but it goes to show that "professionals" can use the "consumer toys" to good use. As Noa noted, if your "show reel" is good, the question of "what was it shot with" is immaterial.

Shutter speed and understanding how it affects your video is a real "thing". In fact it becomes VERY crucial with 30fps 4K to avoid some serious stuttering/shimmering that SOME people reported early on (user malfunction, blamed the camera...) - the sharpness of the individual frames becomes very harsh if shutter is too high to allow some motion blur. May not be as critical with a wedding, but ANY shoot with motion, you have to lock shutter speed in, and not let the camera go auto to high shutter speeds. Understanding the relationship between motion and shutter speeds will give you better results, even if it is a bit "esoteric".

There are plenty of good reasons to know the fundamentals of iris/shutter speed, so you can override the auto functions of a camera when needed... which I think was part of the original request - a cam that can be run "auto", but also has manual controls.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Wow! Bitter in-fighting from people with opposing opinions and all the OP really wanted was to be able to get suggestions of what camera to get his wife that is easy to use.

We should really try and keep posts on topic guys and drift off in some direction. Yes I'm an offender too!

Anyway, Phil should have some ideas by now and some price ranges to consider from under $2K to over $20K

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Many thanks for all the replies and feedback, it did get err...... interesting, my decision is likely to be the AC90

Phil

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Phil - the AC90 seems to be a pretty good match to your needs.

Did a little searching about it and came up with these items:

12x zoom (smooth action)

Barry Greens AC90 book ($100 value - came in the package with the US version)
The AG-AC90A is the most updated camera (US version, maybe PAL too?)

Cons:
No 3.5mm jack
difficult to use with lens attachments
3.5-inch LCD screen is a touch screen and flimsy and difficult to pull out (per one reviewer but countered by another)
Cannot plug the power adapter in while the battery is installed
Battery takes a long time to recharge (4 hours)
pre-record feature has to be enabled every time you hit the record button

It's been noted that "Amazon (US) fulfilled by" and Square Trade can be a grey-market item.

Hopefully there's no "gotchas" in the list.

Edit: Forgot to mention, the US eBay "sold listings" had some nice sounding ads for low-time cams at a nice discount from new so maybe going used for the first cam would be a way to save some cash with the idea of picking up an upgrade in a year or two. Multi-cam looks really nice. The downside is having to follow the postings and putting in the bid. Don't know how the eBay EU PAL prices are but hopefully competitive.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

No Chris, Phil wanted a easy camera to work with in automode for his wife but "to go manual as she progresses her skills for video"

You can't increase your manual skills when people come in here and start questioning the most basic rules in videography like the 180 degree shutter rule and describe it as something used by hobbyist wannabee filmmakers.

If you want to learn to shoot video you need to understand what effect a high or wrong shutter can have, or when to apply a nd filter and why not to close down your iris completely and just ride your shutter to compensate for very bright conditions and then wonder why your image gets soft. There are some rules in videography that are different from photography and they are there for a reason, they all can be bent or broken but if you learn to understand them you will know what effect each setting (or the combination of different settings) will have on your image and you will understand better when it's ok to deviate from those rules. If you say it doesn't matter, then just get a gopro which is great in all auto but it's not a camera to learn to improve video skills with. Shooting good video starts with the knowledge that the shutter is not a tool to control your exposure.

That being said, the ag-ac90 is a good camera to learn to shoot video with as it has enough manual functionality + you get a lot for a small price.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Hi Noa

I also feel that there are two modes of shooting and, in fact the great photographer Joe Buissink who does famous celebrity weddings said there are two photo modes ... P for professional and M for Master ...Guess which he uses for weddings?? the P mode ... shutter is a minor issue compared to actually getting the shot and emotion .... in P mode you nail it every time cos you are not trying to adjust your camera in M mode when the moment in a lifetime comes up!

In a controlled studio/ industrial environment where you are controlling the talent and lighting, sure I can see the value of doing it by the book and obeying the 180 shutter rule ..you have the time to check and double check before you tell the talent to start. Weddings are not called run 'n gun for nothing ... the limo is due at 2pm and it arrives at 1:45pm and instead of parking in the shade where the driver was told to stop he halts in bright sunshine and the girls pour out of the door. Seriously what are going to do? Tell the girls to get back inside and miss that bubbly emotion as they get out and tell the driver to park in the shade cos your shutter was at 1/200th due to the light change...are you going to stuff the girls back in the car so you can repeat the shoot cos your ND filter was wrong and shutter was too high.

Not me!! My job at a wedding is to capture those special moments as they happen not stage everything so I can be technically correct ... Sure my shutter may shoot upwards and not be technically perfect BUT while you were adjusting your camera for the new light conditions I got the shot and the emotion and you missed it all ... your shot would have been a lot better and done "by the book" but guess which one will be a winner!!

Back on topic ..yes I do agree the AC-90 will work well ..a few shoots in full auto first though before she starts playing with settings.

Chris

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Chris, I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll keep it simple and say that whilst I do break the shutter rule, its very rare. With skill and a damn good variable ND I store in a pouch on my person, I've nailed those emotional yet rushed moments time and time again without turning off shutter control. I'm not saying at times its not necessary, but what starts out from necessity quickly becomes one adopted out of habit and a bad one at that.

On subject, I'm gonna stick my neck out and disagree with the ac90. Its an adequate start up camera at best with lots of features at a cheap price, but I'd push the boat and get something better if I was starting out now. The Sony x70 I feel delivers better results and is due a 4k upgrade. More expensive, but worth it having played with both cameras at the BVE yesterday. My only suggestion to the op is to try before you buy.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Just because we do rely on autofunctionality of a camera on occasion doesn't mean we have to totally ignore any rules that will make you a better videographer. Knowing and understanding these rules will make you a better judge when it can be appropriate to bend or break them and they will also make you understand when it will have a negative impact on your image. I sometimes see questions appear here in this forum about problems only because of lack of that basic knowledge.

If I had to train another videographer how to shoot video I would never tell him/her, just point and shoot and leave the camera in auto and that I need the shot, even if it looks like crap. No, I would explain them the basic rules of shooting video, why they should not break them and what happens if they do and after that leave it up to them to decide when they should be broken. When that moment comes when they need to make a split second decision, they can make a calculated judgment and be able to live with the consequences, knowing it was the best they could do under the circumstances. But if they do have the time to do it right, there is no excuse not to spend the extra time setting the camera right to get a better picture.

If Phil and his wife want to learn how to shoot video professionally the right way I would advise them to get the basics right, even if some might say it's a load of nonsense, it will make both better videographers at the end.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Where is the best source to learn how to structure/shoot video during the day.

Whilst not a total novice as I shoot documentary stills for weddings etc so understand the story telling element

When we have shot video it is clearly lacking and is coming across more like still images with movement in as opposed the something more interesting.

Thanks Phil

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Hi Phil

It really is refreshing to see a photographer who actually realises there is a difference between shooting video and taking stills. So many clips posted here instantly reflect the fact that the author is/was a photographer who has discovered their DSLR can, in fact shoot video!

Know the basics of film making as opposed to photography will set you up very well indeed as rules and techniques are quite different and the last thing you want to create is a slideshow of stills but actually create a motion picture.

This is an interesting site which focusses on film making as opposed to "How to shoot a wedding video"

Free Online Film School in 12 Filmmaking Tips

You will see how different the mindset is between the two mediums and is definitely worth a look!!

Chris

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Phil, while it's a bit expensive, Ray Roman's "Creative Live" course is by far the best single resource that I've found. There are certainly other ways to learn wedding cinematography, but if you're looking for a structured course from one of the world's top wedding cinematographers then this is a great option.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Thanks Chris, the videography aspect has given me a refreshing look at things after being a stills Photographer for so long, I have shot a few family/friends events and whilst everyone has loved them they aren't a patch on what I have seen on vimeo etc.
I'll check that out

Phil

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Thanks Michael

I will look into Ray Roman, I have actually watched the fusion training by vanessa and rob, there second name fails me at present.

Phil

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Phil - here are a couple thoughts ....

1) Ken Burns Effect: If your video camera partner is working with just one cam, what one might want to do is spice up the video with some of the stills you're taking. One way to do this and keep the action going is to use the Ken Burns Effect, utilizing the still as a clip with motion.

2) Coordinating the bokeh: If some stills are incorporated then it will be easier to grade and edit if the bokeh of the two cams are closer together. At least there should be some consideration.. My wife is the still camera shooter and I've incorporated some of her shots in my video from time to time with good effect.

3) What application do you think will be used for editing? Might check the app for file compatibility with the cam, and if not okay, then the aftermarket apps for converting file types.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Just watch as many wedding trailers as you can, eventhough they are only a few minutes long their approach can be extended or applied to a 20 minute film as well.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Hi John

I am using Premiere Pro for editing, that's been another learning curve in itself.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Regarding File format.

I am a little confused as to what recording format to use.

With some Cams there seems to be options between MP4 and AVCHD.

I notice that when you import they appear differently. I use Premiere Pro.

AVCHD appears to be all in one large file, where as MP4 seems to record each clip as a separate file.
My 5D's import individual clips which I then cull, but this does not seem to be an option with AVCHD
as it is all one large file or am I missing something here.

If I end up buying a XA20 or AC90 what is the recommended format?

Thanks for all the advice I am getting.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Hi Phil

The AC-90 records in AVCHD 2.0 so every time you press start a clip is created and every time you press stop the clip is closed ...so very start stop sequence creates an MTS file

There however is one exception and that is if you are recording continuously and the file exceeds 2GB a new clip is created and this goes on and on ..let's say an example recording at 50i and 17mbps the file will split every 17 minutes so a 40 minute recording will actually create MTS0000, MTS0001 and MTS0002 ... it is important to import a split file sequence correctly otherwise you get a 12 frame audio gap between the files ...there is a lot written about how to import Panny AVCHD on DVXUser but the software that comes with the camera will have the facility to seamlessly import spilt files as one file complete.

Compared to cameras that keep writing to one file, you do have to get used to not shooting lots of 10 second sequences otherwise you end up with 100's of clips!! However the camera can handle 999 clips anyway if that's how you prefer to shoot.

If you get an AC-90 then definitely order Barry's book at the same time ..it's a bible for the AC-90!!

Chris

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Thanks Chris that is really useful, is there a preference regarding MP4, Mpeg or AVCHD, or should we be choosing whatever the highest MPS is.

Phil

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Cameras tend to be varied in what file format they offer, with a mix of AVCHD, MOV and MP4 for HD footage. Personally I'm not a fan of AVCHD; it's not an easy file format to edit, especially in Premiere. Version 6 I'm using can be a pain in the ass at times and I have to use a proxy file just to play it back smoothly. Quite frustrating when I can playback 4K with no trouble at all. I'm not sure if further versions of Premiere have corrected this. Premiere 6 had updates supposedly to correct AVCHD problems, but not altogether successfully in my opinion.

MOV is better for MACs, whilst MP4 is more targeted for PC. However both systems can handle them. They're the preferred format for me to shoot in. They do tend to be larger in file size, but I prefer a higher bitrate for editing.

Re: Good starter Cam for Video
 

Somehow this thread just begged for a link to THIS thread....

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/area-51/...filmmaker.html

Remember when you're shooting weddings and events you have to do almost all this stuff all on your own... film making takes a "village"...

They did forget to mention the nuances of shutter speed though...