Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Whether people here think that £40 an hour for a short job is good or bad, it does raise another issue that has barely been touched on. That is the question of how this very cheap national approach of offering wedding video affects other businesses like mine and yours.

Looking at the overall picture, the company that offered the work is selling a 4 hour wedding service for £349. They are offering £160 to a camera person, which leaves £189 for editing and supplying an end product. Now I never never went as far as discussing what was required, but assume from his approach, that one camera would have been sufficient. What about sound, an alternative angle with a second camera and other things that most of us would expect to use as a basic requirement. How long does it take to view footage from a 4 hour shoot and collate it well enough to produce an edited end product?

I wonder if editing is also subcontracted out at a basic hourly rate, so for instance, 'here is the footage, we allow 2 hours @£40 per hour for the edit.' That gives a profit of £100 on the wedding with virtually no input, which could be multiplied by an infinite number of weddings. The problem is, what sort of quality do the couple actually get? With that sort of random filming and the limited amount of money that could be allowed for editing, it may just be a one song edit from any useable footage. Pure speculation of course, but I don't see that the overall price could allow for any sort of quality product.

What makes it attractive to clients is the price of course and is exactly the sort of price that can take bookings from your potential clients who don't know any better and may well have lost me a client in this particular instance. A follow up problem if this type of cheap subcontract work grows, is that as more businesses like ours lose out to them and give up like David Partington, the hourly rate will drop as more people are prepared to do the work to get some income.

In a market where the value of wedding video is often not appreciated until after the event, we need to be on our guard against quick deals that can undermine the image of wedding video that most of us have been carefully trying to build.

Just my personal opinion of course.

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

The arguments against seem to swish back and forth. One moment unacceptable because its actually 6 hours not 4, the next unacceptable because as you yourself argued Roger, it was a poor return given your experience, equipment and skills. However as you feel the job becomes more reasonable at say 10 hours at £40 an hour, the issue is less the pay per hour is too low given your experience, equipment and skills, but rather the job is just too small. Which is another matter entirely and hardly undervalues your experience and skills. I think it is a view I see shared by some Videographers I contacted for assistance, unable to accept low hours but willing to do the job at the same rate if the hours are high enough to warrant the effort. There's no excuse for the bad attitude from the guy when you turned him down however.

I do usually give myself plenty of leeway, but for 10 miles, that leeway would be a lot smaller. A decent SatNav, Google even can help anticipate most traffic situations, plus good local knowledge, which I assume you must have. To quote an original example, I could happily give myself 30 minutes to reach Salisbury, park and get to the venue. I know all the back routes, short cuts and secret parking places. As for setup, speaking to Bride, management, this I'd include in the 4 hours or else its 5 hours not 4. When contacted for similar jobs, I always say I charge from setup to departure. Fuel is also an extra. If they're unhappy with this, cheerio. Its not an unreasonable condition.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I feel that way about Photographers taking on video and adding it either as a freebie or at say a low rate of £200-£300 extra for a Photo package with video. For many Brides meeting these Photographers for the 1st time, it can be their first taste of a Wedding video and if they take it, they'll never know the benefits of hiring a full time Videographer. Speaking to some Photographers they feel the same way about Videographers offering Photos as an extra. However you may have a different point of view on that one Roger. :)

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I can certainly see Roger's point here. The prep/travel/parking time for him would be 2 hours and I agree there too so it would end up as 6 hours of your time at 160 ..a rate of 26 and a bit per hour. Take the same guy, same venue and same rate but shoot for 10 hours and it becomes 12 hours (prep time is the same) so your payment of now 400 becomes a more reasonable 33 and a bit per hour. I still say that we are entitled to say no simply on the grounds that it isn't worth it ! I was discussing the very same issue with Rob Benda a while back and as a DJ as well I'm quite sure he would also think twice about something like setting up your sound system and DJ gear for a very short gig ...unless you are paid a better rate, the setup/prep time (especially for a DJ) would actually be more than the actual gig.

Drive 10 miles with a single handheld camera and do a shoot ..sure I would do that no problem ...no setup, just walk in, shoot some footage and you are done.

I did a shoot for Coke last year when they launched their Barista Bros iced coffee ..I had to drive 20kms with one camera, film the promo van driving down the street and the guys getting out and presenting a gift pack to a local competition winner. 11 minutes of footage but over an hour or more of travelling and waiting for the van ... they paid me $350.00 as their policy was they paid their media guys a minimum of 3 hours @$100 an hour plus travel costs ... I never minded that as it covered my prep and travel!!

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Steve, I don't think the argument is swinging back and forth between different arguments. There is no point in raising every argument in each and every post. My turn down of the work is based on my experience, skills and equipment investment being worth more than the £160 for giving up my day. The alternative is not sitting on my backside doing nothing, but editing my own work, processing photos, improving the website and doing accounts, all part of running a full time business.

You have said that 4 hours for you would include setting up etc so you would need 5 hours for 4 hours filming or the guy would only get 3 hours of actual filming. That wasn't the deal, it wasn't 4 hours base to base it was 4 hours filming, so whatever way you hack it up it is still more hours than the 4 that are being paid for.. If I was asking another professional company to film a wedding for me I wouldn't be offering them £160 whether it was 4 hours filming or more and I certainly wouldn't make derisory comments about their business if they turned me down.

I don't intend to comment on my joint photo package here as it is irrelevant to this thread, but if you want to start a new one about joint packages, I will be happy to contribute, as I'm sure Chris would as well :-)

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Hey Steve

Bring it on!! Our photo packages are a lot cheaper combined with video as we are already there so it would make interesting reading!!

Sorry to jump topics but Roger? I have our new season first wedding rehearsal tomorrow evening and I'll zap some 4K and 1080 footage inside the Church and maybe ask you 100 questions but not on this thread!!

Chris

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

The merits on joint / non joint have been discussed at length already. There is little more to say. However I did laugh at Roger feeling that this guy was lowering the value of video by offering £349 for 4 hours work, when no doubt he's undercutting other Photographers with a full days Photography for perhaps a similar amount. Yes you can say the cost is divided with video, but a low fee is a low fee and still undercuts others prices whether justified or not. I'm sure this guy could object to Videographers offering full day fees and nothing else to ensure they get booked for their top prices whilst ignoring those couples who may not want a full days filming but have no choice if they want some kind of video, and justify his price plan.

Now I'm not defending the guy or his attitude. I think his business model is unsustainable in the long run. However at least he's not offering that fee for a days filming, which I'm sure others do.

And yes £160 for what would take up much of your day seems an un-tempting offer. If offered to me, I would make clear that the 4 hours includes setup and departure. If more was required then the job is 5 hours. Simple as that. The moment I arrive at the venue, I'm working in my eyes and charge for it. Unless the guy is asking for 4 hours continuous filming, those 4 hours will include some setup and down time. If I take a loo break, do I have to stop the clock and add 2 minutes to the end time. Am I not able to attach a single camera to a tripod during those 4 hours or must this all be done before I start work. Setting up gear is a continuous process throughout the day, not something you do an hour before the commencement of filming.

I was booked for 4 hours by one couple for February this year, I can assure you I didn't film continuously for 4 hours nor did I need to or was expected to. I arrived 1 hour before the Ceremony and left as the couple entered the Reception for their meal. Setup was included in those 4 hours for the Ceremony, but in that first hour I still got venue shots and guest arrivals enough for a 4 minute intro piece, plus successfully set up 4 cameras and audio recorders for the Ceremony.

By all means turn the job down as you have better things to do, turn it down because the hours are so small and the end fee too low, turn it down because it would be a nightmare to park, or you have a lot of editing, but all this talk of setup time, SD cards download, shower time, getting dressed and it seems the enormous time spent charging batteries is just over justifying a reason to refuse.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I think my reasons for turning down the work are perfectly justified and you are entitled to have your own opinion on it as are others reading this thread.

As regards the joint photo/video package, already discussed as you said, but I am not subcontracting someone else at low rates and as Chris said it is not offering a cheap photo package, it is a different way to working to both photographers and videographers based on already being there. There are also photographers in this region offering photo packages for the same price and less than my add on cost but how that is possible I have no idea.

If anybody would rather have a totally independent photographer whose work they like, I have no problem working with them. Of course, every photographer out there can also add video onto what they offer if they have the skills required :-)

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Perhaps at this stage I should also add that if anyone wants to book our photo package without the video, we will be offering a standalone photo package next year for the same cost as our stand alone video package.

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Actually your reason for turning the guy down on the basis of not giving your skills and experience to a competitor was a good enough argument. I'm not criticising your refusal, just some of the silly stuff being made to support it. Battery charge and Shower time indeed. If I told someone I was unable to do the job as the x number of hours didn't factor in my shower and getting dressed time, I'd be laughed at.

As per joint packages Roger, I should stress I'm not saying you're undervaluing your work. Joint packages should be cheaper for so many reasons. However it can have an impact on photographers prices just as this guy is setting a price that as you say has an impact on other videographers. Bare in mind it's £349 for 4 hours filming, not for the day. If it was £1047 for 12 hours filming, would you suggest he was damaging the video business. Just as in your case, it's a different type of package. I offer a Ceremony only package but how many couples take it, approx 1-2% of them.

You keep saying its a low rate, no it's not. £40 an hour is a good rate, its just a low volume of hours. Theres a difference. Okay the guy behaved like a prick and took a pop shot when you said no, but suggestions he regularly subcontracts and even that the editing is subcontracted too as one person here put forward, is just pure speculation. He asked you to cover a Wedding and somehow he's the great Videographer ogre out to exploit poor innocent Brides. Frankly if a couple pay for 4 hours, they can't value a Wedding video that much to care who the hell films it.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Hi Steve, actually it wasn't me who mentioned anything about getting showered, dressed or having breakfast, it was Chris so you can have a go at him (sorry Chris) :-)

I did refer to time involved in preparing equipment and getting ready, which for me would include checking all batteries and charging as necessary, (I never charge them and leave them unless the next job is already booked a couple of days away), checking the cameras have fresh cards, printing the licence if it is a church, making sure the remote controls are all working and the general things that I do before every shoot to minimise the risk. I also allow enough time for the car not starting, unexpected diversions etc, because if I don't do all those things, previous experience tells me that something will go wrong. Probably different to how you work, but for me, following a tried and tested routine is essential for peace of mind.

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

This time of year, batteries are charged after every shoot. I'm never more than 4 days away from another bit of filming. Batteries hold their charge very well. Same with AA batteries and GoPro batteries. I load SD Cards into the cameras, clean lenses and ensure audio recorders are working. Licenses are downloaded on my phone - any objections and I just tell them I work paperless. Mostly they're emailed before the day.

Long journeys I allow more time, but shorter 20-30 minutes I allow approx 10-15 minutes extra. That goes up to an hour or more for 1-2 hour drives. However this is my schedule for my own Weddings. For a 4 hour shoot like this, I'd be less cautious and certainly not for £160.

Basically my kit is made ready for the next shoot the morning after the last one. I then do a check the night before, so I don't have to think about it when I wake up the next day.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Just on your point Steve that I am speculating that he subcontracts regularly. Yes I am you are quite correct, but as this booking was 150 miles from him and he stated that he books all over the country, I think it highly unlikely that he would normally make a 300 mile or more round journey to film and edit a 4 hour wedding shoot for £349 if he can pay someone locally to film it.

Contrary to what you think I feel, I don't mind anybody offering a cheaper wedding video than me, but when they talk about using BBC broadcast quality equipment, personal pre wedding meetings, a minimum of two cameras and confidence in the years of experience of the business, I find myself questioning what people think they are going to get for £349 from a company that may be 100s of miles from them. When I get a call such as I did, it makes me even more concerned. Sure his top priced packages probably include all that, but people will make assumptions based on what they see, not what they don't see.

So many of the couple's that I see haven't a clue about wedding video, what they get or what it costs and it is easy for them to buy into a glossy promotion. Perhaps I am just too concerned about other people and should let people make their own mistakes. I mentioned in another thread a few months ago that a local photographer had strongly recommended me to a client of his that wanted a video. He had worked with me many times and even booked me to film his own wedding. The couple decided to book someone else simply because they were £100 cheaper and booked on line after seeing some examples on his website. He was also over 150 miles away. What they got was a guy with one hand held camera who filmed bits of the day, didn't film the speeches at all including their 8 year old son making a speech that had everybody in tears. The finished video was the length of one short song that he had picked and the couple were absolutely devastated. They had thought that the highlights on his website were just short examples, but the full length video that they expected was £1000 more and they were mislead by the glossy site. As far as I know it could even have been the same company that contacted me.

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

OK Steve your preparations are very similar to mine, but the point is you still do them, so if the next shoot is for a short time minimal fee, you have still spent the same amount of time doing the preparations, and you still have to do them when you get home again. Whichever way you look at it, that time still needs to be accounted for.

How about we call it a draw, as we are really getting into hair splitting over differing viewpoints. Interesting but becoming a bit pointless :-)

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I agree it's accountable, but with my gear, it's accountable to my Business in general rather than to a particular shoot. I've just been repairing my jib; which job pays for that time. I don't consider prep work to be so great as to warrant refusal of a small job, but then as I take jobs in London where my combined travel can be greater than the time filming, perhaps my perspective is somewhat warped.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

With the experience and expertise you have Roger I cannot understand what your purpose was in starting this topic. In my time I had all sorts of calls offering work I didn't want or couldn't do, I had numerous calls claiming that I'd get more work or higher positioning on google. These call came and I follow up or ignore them. I can't understand why that particular one got you so worked up. With over 25 years and your claimed over 2000 weddings under your belt and a no doubt a valuable referral list why get so excited about this particular call and find that you've have to go into such ludicrous justifications for refusing it. It's very obvious that people in a different stage of their business might find such an offer useful; you didn't so why all the fuss?

If feeling that such a business model will undermine your business, well undercutting or offering a different/cheaper service has been around and a nuisance for full-timers for as long as I have been in the business and it'll never stop, new people with different ideas will always be coming along. If you feel it was a personal insult to your experience and credibility I'd have thought that all of the challenges and problems you must have encountered during those years of weddings would have given you a thicker skin.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Very late to this discussion, but in a very simple way I'm just going to say hourly rates are neither here nor there.

If you stand a chance of being paid higher for those specific hours by somebody else, then by all means, stick to your guns.

But the reality is you have two choices:

- Leave house and gain profit (amount irrelevant)
- Remain in house and gain nothing


What it all boils down to is nothing to do with principal, or pride, or 'the going rate' - it's this - do you need more money??

I suggest that in this case, Roger was not in great need of a few hundred quid.

Others may be. It's not wrong for them to accept any amount, or for anybody to offer any amount.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Ahh George, have we crossed paths at sometime, you seem very keen to discredit me again and doubt my past credentials? I will ignore the tone of your post as I don't believe this forum has any place for any sort of personal argument. I started this thread because having been approached by the company or person concerned I was then mocked in an extremely arrogant way for turning down the work and wondered if others had been approached in the same way. It also made me think that most of us offer a personal service and try to earn a living wage from it, whereas the type of service on offer from this person seemed to offer something that could be a concern for businesses like many here and also potential clients that may not be getting what appears to be being sold.

Now that is just my opinion, but seemed a valid subject for discussion, however a discussion means putting different viewpoints forward that certainly don't have to agree with mine. The debate on this particular one seems to have wound up a few people, some of whom have similar views to my own and some totally different, but I like to think that they can all be discussed without malice. The obvious answer for those that don't think it is a valid topic of discussion, is to just not bother to post if they have nothing of value to add.

The type of work that was on offer may well be of interest to those who have gaps in their schedule and need a bit of extra income, but there may or may not also be dangers in supporting that type of work and approach, which seems to be a reasonable thing to discuss in my opinion.

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Only just seen this post; you confuse me posting twice in a row. To be honest without seeing his website I can't comment further on his Business methods. Fuel wise, it could be cheaper to drive there than pay someone else to do it, less riskier too. If he's taking multiples for a day, then he'll come unstuck soon enough, so I'd leave him to his future mistakes.

I think having been insulted by this guy, you've come on here to blow off steam. Most websites have some marketing flannel. From those who say they worked for the BBC but don't mention in what capacity (tea boy maybe). To those who attack others work like a guy who once frequented here, whose website I saw attacked cinematic videos and basically any other professionals fullstop. I agree its misleading as is most marketing. Do you really get the burger in macdonalds that looks like the photo. Er no. Which leads to this...

We can't protect the consumers who won't help themselves.

Couples just don't give enough thought to video and they're their worse enemy. Requesting samples, asking questions - standard stuff really. A Bride takes an age to decide her dress, her cake, her hair and makeup and then spends a few hours browsing Video samples before making the call. In such cases they deserve what they get, but in the end its our duty also to ensure our website is clear and inform them of what do expect from a Videographer. Have a page devoted to helping couples choose a Videographer. Useful tips. You don't have to insult others work, but at least you could make them ask the right questions to your competitors. I'm thinking of doing one myself. Once this blasted season is over and I have time, I'm planning an overhaul of my website and marketing. Choosing the right Videographer is one of the pages I plan to do.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Hi Clive,
I don't dispute your reasoning but I think that if is not as simple as you suggest. Maybe I am looking for demons under the bed, but your choices above could also be:-

-Leave house and gain profit (amount irrelevant)
-Remain in house and gain nothing.
-Leave house and work for offered amount and lose out on your own wedding booking
-Remain in house and spend the time building your own business

I don't know how much you charge and how many wedding bookings you take, but let's assume that every wedding booking that you do is subcontracted and. earns you £160 less costs, would there be enough to give you a good income? Of course if you were taking weddings at a low rate and subcontracting them out yourself, you could do many in one day and make a very good income.

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario that concerns me, John and Jane call you and enquire about their wedding on 28th September. You visit them, show them your work and give them your price, let's say £800. You hear nothing more, then receive a phone call asking if you will film a wedding for 4 hours for £160 on 28th September. As you have nothing booked, you accept, then find out that it is the same couple that you saw, but had decided to book with a 'National company' which was less than half the price of yours. this happens a few times and you are faced with a possible , choice to make,

-offer weddings at the same or even lower to claim back the market in your area
-carry on as you are and hope to pick up those clients who want to spend more
-push for more subcontract work
-do something totally different

Ok I am scaremongering to some extent, but with the fairly minimal percentage of videos to weddings, it doesn't take a lot to change the landscape. A similar thing happened with photography a few years ago, where companies like Kodak flooded the market with national advertising, subcontracting in local photographers some of whom were abysmal but cheap.

David Partington in another thread already mentioned the downward trend in his area and has now pulled out of weddings after many years, so I do think the subject is worthy of discussion.

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

But Roger as you yourself pointed out once in a joint package discussion, the idea of combined packages is changing the market, with the potential to drive down prices. Don't you think I'm asking questions myself over whether to include photos in some capacity. DSLR's changed the market, multiple cameras, non linear editing if you go further back. The market is always changing and those who adapt survive, those who don't will either struggle on or bow out. Now Photographers can shoot video and Videographers can produce 4K stills. All of which impacts more than this guy doing a 4 hour package at £349.

I have a Ceremony only package at £295; I've run it for 5 years. It's had such low takers as to make me consider removing it. Is a 4 hour package that much of a threat. If you offered one yourself, do you think you'd be flooded with requests for it or just a few cash strapped Brides. If could well be this guy has this 4 hour package as I have the Ceremony only one. I did have the misfortune of getting a full Wedding booking on the same day I had a Ceremony one in Winter, so I subcontracted out to a guy who occasionally 2nd shoots for me. Its not necessary a reflection of a permanent business model, just adapting to a particular circumstance.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Good post Steve, and I would agree in some areas and disagree in others.

My joint package is only done in conjunction with the video and costs more than many videographers and. photographers charge. My photo only package next year will be in the typical photography price range with all the things that the joint package doesn't offer. I am though, not subcontracting to bring prices down the whole joint package is by my business for my business and is moving with changes in technology. Your ceremony only package is just you and you choose to set a price that you are satisfied with. You could of course subcontract in student camera operators for a low rate, do minimal editing and advertise over a wide area to bring in lots of weddings on the same day. But you know as well as I do that quality would suffer considerably and you may well lose some of your full priced weddings as a result. There are always those couples who just assume that a video is a video!

Another point is that I doubt you would travel 300-500 miles round trip for a £295 wedding.

Regarding your own thinking on some sort of photo inclusion, is that because you like the idea of a more flexible and wider based offering, or because you are worried that photographers who are now offering video may take work from you? At the last big wedding show that I did, out of 10 photographers, 5 were offering some sort of video add on, so I wouldn't worry about taking work from them, they outnumber videographers by 10 to 1

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Hi Roger

Since you are talking about photo inclusion my reasons are totally away from the fact that more photogs are offering video. That doesn't worry me at all. My primary reason for offering photography and video is simply because I'm sick and tired of arrogant photogs taking over the shoot and me having to beg to get a mere ten minutes to do a stedicam shoot ... that was the number one reason I decided on dual packages and from our entire new season I have only TWO video only shoots .. all the rest are combined. Shucks if it meant I could rid my shoots of photogs for the entire season, I would do the photos for free rather than put up with some photogs!! There is of course a little spinoff here and that is by marketing photos and video brides will look at us for photos and then usually consider video too as we give them a hefty price break when they both combined. Yes we offer photos only and video only too and do book photo packages but for me it's nothing to do with what other photogs are doing or offering ..the less I see them the better and so far it works a treat. Yes we CAN offer lower combined costs as we are already onsite doing one or the other so the bride doesn't have to pay to get a photographer to her wedding .. we already have two right there (or still have one while I'm shooting video)

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I read this with interest despite me not into weddings. I will never be into weddings as that is not my cup of tea.

People have to understand that we are a business ie. we make a living out of filming. I often get these kinds of offers to shoot much below my rate. Clients request me to do it one time as this project doesn't have budget etc etc. I simply decline even though I am available.

Someone earlier in this thread wrote that by accepting several small jobs one can buy a lens. However, remember if you once cave in, then your rates are gone for ever. If an agency or lot of folks in the market know that you have done one project for cheap, then when you are trying to bid for a good project, someone or the other will know that you were doing it for peanuts.

We are not selling products in the mass market. Management guru C.K. Prahalad had said that there is value at the "bottom of the pyramid". He said that if you can sell something for as low as a rupee/dollar or whatever denomination to millions of people, then you make millions. However, as videographers/cinematographers you can't do a million shoots. So forget the notion of shooting cheap.

So what can you do?

Differentiate. Stand out from the crowd. Market your 30 years of experience.

Why is the discussion going on about cost+ pricing ie. cost of parking+ cost of battery charging + cost of equipment etc plus a small margin for your business?

A newbie will be looking at cost+ pricing strategy. A man of considerable experience should be charging a premium.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

The last thing I'm looking at is a discussion on joint packages, their merits, price structures. I brought it up only as Roger questioned this others company package of £349 for 4 hours video and suggested it could harm other videographers. My argument is that its harm is no greater than yourself and Roger running joint packages, in terms of having an impact on price and other Videographers / Photographers income. Its not a challenge to say you and Roger are undervaluing either your service or Videographers work in general. Impossible as I don't know what you charge, though have seen similar companies prices to make guesses. We are all entitled to compete in a competitive market at the end of the day. It's those offering £349 for a full days filming you need to worry about not 4 hours.

Now I agree that obtaining bookings for £349 from couples 150 miles away is a dubious practise, and I can't see how it can be sustainable or why those couples would even do such a thing. However a 4 hour package at £349 sourced locally isn't entirely unreasonable. 12 hours at £1047 isn't a bad price and the same rate as 4 hours at £349. I've seen joint packages at £1200, not too far off and a lot more work in comparison. I would have more to fear from Photographers offering video than this guy, as their low prices would cover the day and not 4 hours.

I'm thinking of offering some photo function even if via 4K stills and some basic photo taking, but more to keep my business modern and competitive. Certainly I wouldn't do formals as I hate the concept and the type of photos they produce. I've seen some fun ones, but only with the right crowd who don't take it seriously.

That was me. And I keep saying this, but £40 an hour is a good rate; its probably more per hour than what I'm getting with my top Wedding package when I factor in all the work I do for each one. The issue here is that the number of hours is small. People here may well be glad to work 10 hours at £40 per hour but not 4 hours at £40 an hour due to the effort involved in undertaking this work. However we all have a different threshold. For me that would not be an inconvenience. It doesn't devalue my work, my experience or skills.

My justification is this, if I can work £40 an hour for 10 hours, I can for 4 or even 2 if need be. The question is then can I be bothered to take the job given the low number of hours and consequently lower fee. Is it worth giving up my time, which I could always put to better use. Many here would say no. For me in most cases I can say yes. 20 small jobs may not individually offer much, or seem that attractive, but as a whole can be very lucrative. If it allows me to indulge and buy a more expensive lens, then it's worth the trouble in my eyes.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I will admit, I kind of don't agree. 40 an hour would be fine IF it covered all the work, not just "filming" time. And if I wasn't using all my own gear.

Sabyasachi has some fair points. For us, the date itself has value. I suppose last minute booking makes any rate seem appealing since its better than not working. I would have been more interested in that several years back than I am now. Now I don't *need* the booking at any cost.

------

Mostly, my problem with the original booking in question is how.... scummy it looks. I still think the guy is just a booking agent. He's trying to book as many events as possible, at a low rate, then farm out the work. He's a high volume-low satisfaction guy. Personally, I am not and don't care to work for or with those kinds of people. The booker is taking chances with their wedding.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

If you're happy with £40 an hour if it covered all the work, then it emphasises my point that £40 is an acceptable fee per hour when for big jobs; it's just this job is so small, making the £40 an hour not appealing. As I said previously, people would work £40 an hour for a 50 hour job, just not for 4 hours. However whether its still worth doing depends on whether you want or need the work or not.

As for the guys business model, we can but speculate. Apparently he does have a much higher price for full day. I offer Ceremony only for a low fee package, but that doesn't make me a booking agent. The fact he takes bookings so far from his location suggests outsourcing I agree, but could just be a willingness to travel as far as it takes to get some work. I know I did when I first started. I did Weddings all over the Country during my 1st 2 years. Pared it back since then mind, but he could just be a newbie.

We have but 1 example of his booking, just 1 and Roger's assessment of his website, but websites only tell what the business wants couples to read. No ones gonna put, I'm new to the game, finding my feet. Only a few Weddings to my name etc. Mouthing off to Roger is wrong, but lets not accuse and convict the guy based on 1 phone call.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

The overwhelming majority of wedding photographers at the low end are 'Weekend Warriors'. For many people a couple of hundred quid (that they will not declare to the tax man) for a day taking snaps is a fair rate & easy money. I am sure that there are plenty of people who would photograph a whole wedding for the £160 that Roger declined.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I would have turned down this offer of work too but not because I don't think that £160 for a few hours work is a bad rate for a day that I had no work booked. However I would be very worried about turning up at a local wedding & filming for this budget outfit. Even if you were just filming & had no other involvement because you were the local guy you would be associated with the quality & value of the finished product. If the couple were unhappy with the finished product then you would be tainted by that & if they were happy with the video then you would be known as a guy who does wedding videos for £349.

If you weren't someone who does wedding videos so don't have to worry about the effect on your prospective customers then £160 isn't bad & according to Paul R Johnson there are plenty of video professionals who will work for £120-140 per day.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I think this is a very important point Nigel and one that I made early on in the thread. I was filming a wedding yesterday and there were two previous clients and several other people that recognised me from weddings. It was only 200 yards from the venue that I had turned down. It could so easily have been the wedding that I turned down and the finished product would have been associated with me and my business. The previous clients may well have wondered why they had paid so much more and others seeing me at wedding shows would expect the same package price. Furthermore if the end product was poor, it would reflect badly on my own business for the sake of £160. I also agree that for non wedding work it is a totally different matter, but for a wedding in your own area definitely not worth the risk.

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

As I mentioned below, I filmed a wedding yesterday about 200yards from the venue that I was offered fo £160. I'm mentioning it again as it reinforces my own reservations about time allowances.

It was a joint photo and video package, with Claire filming and photographing the Bride's Preps and me going straight to the venue for a 3pm ceremony. I know the venue well, but like to have time in hand so left at 1.00 for the drive. In support of Steve's driving times, I actually arrived at the venue 10 miles away at 1.15. Unfortunately, the day before, contractors had fenced off the carpark and started digging it up to convert into gardens, so I had to park illegally away from the building and make three trips up two flights of stairs, with the equipment, then find the manager for a room to put it while I found somewhere to park. That took until 1.30, then a 5 minute drive to the nearest paid carpark, only to find it was completely full and I got stuck for another 5 minutes waiting for 3 idiots to move who had decided to block the carpark waiting for someone to free up a space. I tried another car park that was also full and eventually spent another 10 minutes driving through the middle of town one way system to a fringe carpark. That was a 5 minute walk from the venue so I arrived finally at 1.55, needing to set up the cameras and start filming and photographing the guests starting to arrive. My first shots were at 2.05, 65 minutes after I left home.

Interestingly, one of the couple's there I had filmed 4 years ago and they had a very expensive arty photographer, who constantly ignored me and walked through my shots. The couple phoned me up after I had delivered their video and asked for some stills from the video, 50 I believe, as the photographer had missed a lot of shots that they had asked for even though I had them on video and they could sometimes see him on the video taking the pics. He also took no still at all of their daughter, or they didn't come out. That wedding was one of those that was instrumental in us adding our photography package.

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I know the feeling! 18t truck arrives, driver gets out to prepare for tipping the kit. Traffic warden says you can't park there the rules have changed. Oh dear, says the driver, I've just change the tacho to 'resting', so I cannot drive it again for 4 hours. Best just give me the ticket, I'll take a pictures, send it to the office, and they will pay it over the phone immediately. No says the traffic warden, I want you to move it. Love to, the driver says, but it would be illegal for me to drive it now - so it's a four hour wait I'm afraid, so sorry. This went back and forth. They wanted it moved and the fine was £5 more than the lorry park charge 3 roads away. He was happy with the ticket, but the traffic warden was being told by their office to get it shifted. In the end, the driver just gave him his mobile number and said give me a yell if you write out the ticket. He didn't move and didn't get a ticket.

One solution offered was that he should get there for before 10am. We sat and worked out the actual cost based on everyone's daily rates

Extra driver to cover driving hours, including subsistence payments £320
Production Manager extra cost £180
Lighting crew (2) £140 x 2 £280
Sound crew (2) £150 x 2 £300
Stage crew non-union (6) £36 x 6 £216
Stage crew union (4) £80 x 4 £320
Early cleaning call £40 x 4 £160

That's close on two grand to get there early, or £35 for a parking ticket. what a daft world.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I've just done a quick calculation on the cost of hiring my setup for a day (cameras/steadicam/lenses) not including audio gear and supports it actually comes to just about 50% of what I charge - makes you think ;)

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Roger, to sum up I think it's up to you to decide if the job is worthwhile. I never spoke to the guy, nor seen his website nor know the venue and surrounding issues that parking a car there brings. I've never had the kind of hassle you describe, so understandably I didn't take such things into consideration. That said, yes I do leave in good time for my own Weddings at least.

Ultimately not liking the venue for such a small job, not thinking the fee worth giving a day up, not wanting to aid the competition and not wanted to be associated with a company you have no respect for are all individually damn good reasons to turn a job down. Wider issues as to whether £40 an hour is a good rate, or £160 worth doing the job are down to each of us to decide. I have no issue with it, others do.

Mind you, 3 trips with your equipment. I see you're one of these Videographers that have your equipment spread across multiple bag and cases. I've worked with them. I find it inefficient. I have 4 cameras, 10 lenses, audio recorders, gopros x3, tripods, a monopod, 3 lights, lightstand, jib, slider and mic stand. 2 bags, that's all. One on the back, 1 on a 2 wheel trolley. So even with stairs, its 1 trip. I have handles for the trolley and had 1 venue like yours where I carted both 2 flights. This was also 1 trip from the car parked 10 mins away on Brighton seafront, where parking is non existent. When I arrive at the reception from a church Ceremony, I don't like to waste time by going back and forth.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Age and fitness levels make all the difference. A 30 year old may be able to hump everything in one go, a 50 year old may not, a 60 year old simply won't

I speak from experience.

Dave

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I exceed the 60 year old limit that Dave has set so I would have to make 4 trips then?? Seriously, I have a custom 4X4 trolley made from a garden cart chassis and I made aluminium framework on top that takes all my bags plus trays for the cameras ... takes slightly longer to load at the car than grabbing a few bags but I only have to ever make one trip and at the venue I have a "station" for all my stuff so it's less likely to get lost!

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I really don't think this is uncommon. I get calls all the time in other parts of
the video industry this way. Some ad agency or production company 800
miles from me, advertises in my area, books a client, and then posts ads on
Craigslist and similar for low rates, hoping to hire students to shoot for him.
When that doesn't work, he searches online, and starts calling locals and
offering them the work. A long time ago, when I was young and stupid, and
really needed work, I did a 'business promo' for $250. I did all the shooting
and editing and uploaded it to the 'middleman'. Later, I found out from the
client that they paid $5000.

Another time I received a call from a bride asking for a price for a wedding
(shoot and edit). I confirmed the date and time was open on my calender
and gave her a quote. She told me she'd get back to me. About 15 minutes later,
I received a call from another company wanting to hire me to shoot a wedding.....and
it just so happened that it was the exact same day and time as the wedding that I had
just quoted for. This company was hoping to pay me about 10% of what I would charge
to do the whole thing. I quoted them 95% of what I would charge for shooting and editing
for shooting only.....LOL. Because you see, I'm not in the business of competing against
myself. I knew they couldn't shoot it, and I wasn't going to give them an easy way to
get that job. They seemed rather offended at my 'unreasonably high' price.

It's kind of funny to me. Everyone has their own journey. At a certain time in
my life $40 or $50 an hour would have sounded great. Now that I am running
my own business, responsible for my own health insurance, retirement,
gear insurance, have to pay both the employer's and employee's Social
Security portion and so on, I charge about 4 times that amount. That plus
the place I live has no roads in or out, so literally everything has to be flown
or barged in and out of town....this makes it an expensive place to live. So I
just laugh when people tell me how expensive I am and how I should be
happy with $40 an hour. That's what is awesome about running your own
business. They don't get to have a real say in what I should be happy to work for.

To the OP, if you think it's too cheap, don't take the job. I turn down work all the time.
And I constantly hear this familiar refrain:
'It might be less than what you usually make, but wouldn't you rather
be working and making something than making nothing that day??'

And my answer is always the same.
'Nope! I'd rather be spending that time hanging out with my family!'

You only get so much time on this earth. My time is too valuable to
be spent doing half rate jobs for unappreciative people. I'd so much
rather have less money and more quality time to spend with the people
I love. Something I heard once about doubling my rates and only having
half as much work but having a lot more free time stuck with me.
Just my opinion.

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Gabe, as the original poster I have to completely agree with everything you have said, it completely mirrors what I feel about it and why I turned it down.

Interesting what you said about the enquiry immediately after you had an enquiry for the same date. In the week or so running up to the call I had that prompted the post, I had two texts asking me for my prices for a wedding, with no questions, dates, area or anything else. Neither came back again, and they stood out as being very unusual enquiries.

Roger

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

Chris, you fit in with what I said, because there are two options. One, stop doing it or two, find a way to carry, on as you did. Would you really be prepared to carry a load of gear on your back or shoulders now?

For my last few years at work I also put more and more of my equipment on wheels. As they say, it's no good getting older if you don't get smarter too! :-)

Dave

Re: Asked to film for another company
 

I'm still wondering if it's better to be 34 years old and dumber?? Both Dave and I share a birthday on the 30th of this month and we have both reached the majestic age of 69 and we are still going!!!

Roger? Just for interest our wedding rehearsal on Thursday ended up later than expected so it was under lights so I didn't bother too much with running test footage. The wedding is tomorrow so I think I'll just shoot this one at 1080 for now ..forecast is 60% rain, possible hail storms in the morning and a max temp of 14 degrees ...that's almost UK weather!! The outdoors stills shoots should be fun!!

Bottom line on this topic however is that we have the right to decide if a shoot for a 3rd party is worth doing or not ... straight off the line, I would be hesitant shooting for someone else to edit anyway.

On to better and more interesting topics now???