DV Info Net

DV Info Net (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/)
-   Wedding / Event Videography Techniques (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-videography-techniques/)
-   -   Asked to film for another company (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-videography-techniques/529284-asked-film-another-company.html)

Roger Gunkel August 3rd, 2015 04:39 AM

Asked to film for another company
 
Having had a late night last night, my breakfast was broken by a telephone call asking if I was free to film a wedding this coming Friday. After looking at the diary, I confirmed that It would be possible, assuming it was a last minute wedding video enquiry.

The youngish and slightly pushy sounding voice on the phone said that he films weddings all over the UK and had been let down by 'One of his guys' and was ringing me as I was only about 10 miles from where the wedding is being held. As he is based about 150 miles away I was surprised that he was going to film in my area. He asked what my hourly rate was and I told him that I don't have one as I don't film for other companies, only for my own business. I asked him what he was offering and was told that he pays the standard national rate the same as the BBC- £40 per hour. I said that as it would also involve an extra hour of travelling, parking (not easy there) setting up, breaking down and getting back, thanks but no thanks. It would also involve me supplying my own cameras, audio gear, cards etc., plus getting the footage to him.

He then seemed to be quite offended by my refusal and asked me where I got my work from as he had only found my funny little 'old school' pink looking website, so thought I must get word of mouth only! I laughed and wished him luck.

Thinking about this, I remarked to Claire that I have recently had a couple of odd texts, just asking me my prices, with no other details. Makes me wonder if I was being searched out as a videographer in a particular area for just these sort of last minute filming offers.

Having now looked at his website and found that he offers 4 hour wedding shoots for £349 I can see why he doesn't want to pay more. He also offers another wedding service at over £1500, maybe he decided to take one of those instead. I would have thought that if he was having that difficulty finding someone to film, he would have just asked me to take it on, which is what I would have done in the same position. I was a little concerned that he offers 'BBC Broadcast Quality High Definition Cameras', a personal service and direct consultation and discussion with the client, but was perfectly happy to offer the job to someone he has never met, knows nothing about and hasn't a clue what equipment they use.

I can see why David Partington. has decided to give up weddings if people are perfectly happy to book something just based on a price on a website and a load of cleverly worded sales patter. Perhaps I am mistaken in thinking that my thirty+ years in filming and editing weddings is worth a bit more than £160, or that an honest up front approach to clients is worth while. Perhaps the idea of taking on as many weddings as possible at whatever it takes to get them is what it is all about now. It does seem that for the vast majority of weddings, video is secondary, the couple's haven't a clue what to expect and they will accept almost anything you tell them if the price is right.

My new business plan is simple, weddings start at £200, arrivals and ceremony highlights, cut to one piece of music. I have a list of unemployed people that can point a camera and stop and start it, who get paid £50 cash in hand no questions asked. Takes me about an hour to edit and I can take on as many weddings a day as I can get. I also offer a £1900 package that I do myself for clients that have money and taste.

Roger

Chris Harding August 3rd, 2015 06:40 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Hi Roger

160 quid equates to a mere AUS$342.00 ..that's hardly worth getting into your car for! I'm cheap and a ceremony only package (seldom requested anyway) is a minimum of $599 for 2 hours work!!

We have a few of these guys over here too ... set yourself up as a wedding videography company and then hire a couple of uni students for a tiny price and reap in the profits. However the end results are often a disaster too. We had one guy doing this over on our East Coast who had many brides after his blood when their precious ceremony involved a student waving a camera mostly at the guests and the sky. He quickly shut up shop and his fancy website stated "We are currently not taking any bookings" after the local Consumer Protection body, along with the 60 minutes TV crew hunted him down!!

Like you if there is a wedding to be shot, I will consult with the bride, we will shoot and edit it and deliver it too...the bride deals with the same person from start to finish including during the actual wedding. I often wonder how photogs get away with sending out a freelancer to a wedding instead of doing it themselves. We actually have one local guy, extremely popular who has been nominated by the bride as "our photographer" at quite a few weddings when I was doing video only ... I never met the guy! It was always someone else hired at the last minute.

From a business point of view it can quite easily work however ! Have a nice office, have a bunch of students on call and a few people happy to edit and you can do multiple weddings on a weekend without lifting a finger!! Just think what you could do with your scheme if you employed a few homeless people with cheap camcorders!!

No thanks! I would rather not have angry brides on my doorstep ...when I get a booking the buck stops with me and Val and myself handle everything ... I also have had a few calls to shoot someone elses wedding booking but politely refused!!

Chris

Steve Burkett August 3rd, 2015 06:51 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
I think you're over-reacting Roger. Personally I'd have taken the job if offered to me. £160 for 4 hours filming. Not a bad earner. Sure if it was 10 hours it would be better income, but if you're free, only a 10 hour drive - surely better than sitting at home earning nothing for 4 hours. I've afforded a £1000 lens from doing several of these smaller jobs. I'm not too proud to accept them nor feel I'm worth x amount of money.

I'm sure his business model differs greatly from yours. Just as much as yours differs from mine. As you frequently say, as long as the clients are happy. For some, they neither have the money or value the video enough to pay the high prices. Doesn't mean there's not money to be made from them

Roger Gunkel August 3rd, 2015 08:05 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett (Post 1894130)
I think you're over-reacting Roger. Personally I'd have taken the job if offered to me. £160 for 4 hours filming. Not a bad earner. Sure if it was 10 hours it would be better income, but if you're free, only a 10 hour drive - surely better than sitting at home earning nothing for 4 hours. I've afforded a £1000 lens from doing several of these smaller jobs. I'm not too proud to accept them nor feel I'm worth x amount of money.

I'm sure his business model differs greatly from yours. Just as much as yours differs from mine. As you frequently say, as long as the clients are happy. For some, they neither have the money or value the video enough to pay the high prices. Doesn't mean there's not money to be made from them

Thing is Steve it's not just filming for 4 hours is it. It's also charging up batteries, getting equipment ready, parking charges, preparing files to send to the video company etc. All the additional things add up to perhaps another couple of hours. If you are someone with little income and experience but had some equipment, then maybe you can make a case for it. Let's be honest Steve if you were to hire a couple of decent cameras, tripods, sound recorders and SD cards for 4-6 hours, how much would you expect to pay? If someone hires me, they are going to get properly filmed footage, with good visual flow, imaginative shots, good sound etc. That comes from years of experience with weddings, a big investment in equipment and a good business reputation. Why should I make that available for the cost of an amateur, when that same time won't be spent sitting at home earning nothing, it would be spent editing existing productions that can be got out and paid for.

On top of that, it is quite possible that as the wedding is in my area, there may be people at the wedding who may know me or have seen me at wedding shows. If the company concerned does a bad editing job or doesn't supply what was expected, that could reflect back on me. The Bride and Groom could even be someone who saw me at a wedding show and decided they wanted something cheaper. They then tell their friends who are getting married 'If you book xxxx cheap videos, you will get the same bloke that tries to sell his own business for a lot more'! They won't see what the differences are between what I am selling and what their cheap alternative is offering.

Roger

Roger Gunkel August 3rd, 2015 08:16 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Steve, forgot to say that I agree that there is money to be made from these cheap productions if you are the business that is offering them. I have years of skill and knowledge and have invested lots of money in my business and equipment and if it reaches the stage where I have to give up a Friday to earn £160, because I need it, I would rather sell up and do something else.

It's also worth remembering that if you are prepared to do this sort of work in your own area, then you are giving companies that charge those sort of prices the opportunity to undermine your own business.

Roger

Steve Burkett August 3rd, 2015 09:25 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Roger I hear your arguments. However I find some flaws in your reasoning. Charging up batteries - really how long? Mine charge overnight, takes me a minute to slot 4 batteries into chargers plus 8 AA batteries into its re-charger. Equipment ready. Tales me 15 minutes to clean all my primes (7 plus 2 zoom's), check audio recorders and cameras and slot in SD cards. This time of year, equipment is checked regularly, so it needs no more than that - I'm a dab hand at it. Copying files can be done overnight or during next days breakfast. 4 hour shoot, how many cards will you be using. Honestly the work you describe is more 30 minutes than 2 hours. Parking fees should be added to the bill. I agree if the guy refuses this then that's a point against him.

£40 an hour is hardly an insult. How much do you charge for your services, tot up all the hours you do, home visits etc, and how much per hour are you actually making. Unless you charge well over £1000, I'd say there's little difference in price per hour when you factor in marketing, emails, pre-discussions, editing, DVD Production. None applicable for this job.

I'm not sure the people recognising you is a valid argument either. I mean if you work hard on the day and they see that, it counts in your favour I think; and as for Post production, how many will see a finished video. Does the guy do trailers? Plus as the package is limited to 4 hours, that's hardly a competitor to you unless you offered the same. Does it include Photography which you also offer. Different type of clients - different expectations. Would their friends want the same package, if so your refusal will hardly have them coming to you anyway.

I agree it can undermine your own business; I mean I can see the insult - the couple goes to this guy, get you instead and he gets the credit. You get £160.

I have equipment and skills too; I'm just rather they be put to use than sitting at home. 5 hours with travel on a Friday is no great loss - I've wasted that some days playing on the internet when I should be working. Putting that skill and equipment to use is a return on that investment, no matter how small. That's how I see it, but I admit others may feel that return needs to be larger to warrant getting into one's car for a bit of work.

That said I can understand your reasoning that these smaller charging companies are a potential threat and to help them is self defeating. For that reason alone, I think its fair to turn the work down. From my perspective, I tend to do such work for Corporate, which I'm not so big on in my business.

Craig McKenna August 3rd, 2015 09:51 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Shouldn't this be moved to the private room? I would share in there, but I'd be reluctant to do so given that anyone can read what we write here and we're under our real names - I have a few stories from recent times - will email you if not, Roger!

Roger Gunkel August 3rd, 2015 10:55 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
@ Craig, I agree that for more detailed information it could be moved to private, but by all means feel free to email if it doesn't get moved.

@ Steve, I suppose it depends on how you value your service and time. I consider that if I offer a competitor my skills and equipment that I have developed over the years, then I am devaluing my own business and worth. If I was just a freelance cameraman I may feel differently about it, but running my own business in the same field as this other guy, is offering part of what sells my business and is not up for cheap hire. £40 per hour on the face of it sounds a pretty good hourly rate, but it is not just an hourly rate as I see it. It is also a contribution to all the costs that go into purchasing equipment, vehicle, running costs and everything else necessary to be able to do the job properly. I just don't see that £40 per hour for the equipment hire and a skilled operator is great. Also If you can get your equipment prepared, loaded, get to the venue, find parking, setup, get packed up brought home and downloaded in 1 hour then you are a better man than I sir :-)

Roger

Steve Burkett August 3rd, 2015 11:17 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel (Post 1894151)
Also If you can get your equipment prepared, loaded, get to the venue, find parking, setup, get packed up brought home and downloaded in 1 hour then you are a better man than I sir :-)

Okay I wasn't factoring in travel. That said 10 miles - 20 minutes each way. I could just about do it in an hour with all the extra tasks you mentioned. Setup I'd include in the 4 hours filming as the days events unfold. I admit I'd probably give myself some leeway and not rush it. I once had short notice for filming - in London. Within 20 mins of the phone call I was out of the door, all dressed, gear checked and ready. 60 mile drive to Richmond, parked, walked to train station, Train to Waterloo, then tube to Oxford St Station, 10 min walk to venue - arrived and setup 2 cameras all within 3 hours of that phone call. This jobs a doddle compared to that. And it was only £200 plus expenses. Mind you it was a damn good job that paid in other ways - I grant you that. And not a Wedding, which I value differently to Corporate.

Roger Gunkel August 3rd, 2015 12:06 PM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
I could probably do the 10 miles in 20 minutes but unloading and finding somewhere to park would add another 10 minutes to that, then checking the filming positions and setting up would add more to it. I would never cut it close to the bone, so would certainly add more emergency time. The 4 hours doesn't include setting up time, so if you relate it to driving into the middle of Salisbury next Friday, you wouldn't be far off the mark and would probably give it a miss.

I would certainly do it for a corporate client if there was the potential of building contacts for future work for my own business, but not to promote another video company. It's all academic anyway, but makes for interesting discussion :-)

Robert Benda August 3rd, 2015 12:13 PM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
I'm willing to bet he's just a middle man. His business is booking as many weddings as he can, then trying to find someone to do the actual work.

We have a fair number of them in the U.S. Often they are impossibly generic and national looking. Always with cheap pricing. As a DJ, I've gotten a couple of calls over the years from these kinds of companies looking for a sucker to do the work.

Yes, I'd call the people who work for them, by and large, suckers. These are the folks trying to drive pricing down and take a cut without doing any of the actual work. Oh, and of course they tend to not put any thought or concern into the quality of work. its all about volume. (of course, there may be exceptions, but let's not kid ourselves).

Chris Harding August 3rd, 2015 06:20 PM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
I had done (very reluctantly) a couple of weddings supplying raw footage only which essentially is what this job would be. The big issues I had was bitter complaints that the main ceremony camera and 2nd cutaway camera were not synced ... "Ummm it's raw unedited footage..what did you expect" They seem to expect no wobbles so essentially often what is referred to as "unedited footage" still means that you ate expected to at least top and tail each and every clip and keep them in order (one bride expected the unedited footage to be just one single clip for the ceremony and one for the reception)

Unless you are sent blank cards and they are picked up the next day without you having to touch them at all then you have to also start adding time for downloading the footage onto your computer and then off again to a suitable delivery device and all this takes time ... so if your 4 hours turn in 6 hours your rate does drop somewhat!! It's important to make sure exactly what the client wants or expects otherwise you might end up working for a lot less than the original rate!

Steve Burkett August 3rd, 2015 11:34 PM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Chris, does your computer require some kind of manual handle that you have to constantly turn every time you download footage. Downloading footage is as easy as popping cards into the drive, I assume you have a multi USB port to download more than 1 at a time; select all the files and copy across. Then leave it to do something else; have a bite to eat, answer some emails, watch a bit of tele, nice nights sleep. For similar jobs I just copy to my computer for backup and post the original cards. 4 SD 32GB cards takes 15-20 mins to download. I have plenty of them, so its no trouble to send the original cards. Quite effortless and quite nice to occasionally do some filming without having to edit it all.

And I think there's a big difference between a Bride wanting raw footage and another Wedding Business. The Bride is asking for RAW footage as a final product whereas I imagine the 4 hours of footage would be edited by this other company. In fact if anything they would be aghast if you top and tailed each clip. Anyway it's all academic as Roger said no.

Chris Harding August 4th, 2015 12:47 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Hey Steve

I guess you don't have a mechanical computer like me where I have to pull the lever and the little balls roll out as footage ..you should get one ..it's like playing the slot machines.

I can copy my clips (the whole folder actually) to a 16gb drive in a few minutes and pop that into the mail. That's NOT the issue at all ...the issue I get is "But I expected ......" If they ask for raw footage they get my clips that each camera created all in a folder and it's up to them to sort out what goes where. OK, probably someone you shoot for expects to get that sort of delivery but any couple that have asked for footage have a totally different idea of what raw footage is? I simply don't deliver it any more! They seem to expect a file covering say, the ceremony neatly topped and tailed with all the cutaways dropped into place AND in a format that their computer can handle too. Give them B-Cam clips that total about 100 +++ and they say "What are these" ...they seem to expect one file for the ceremony and one for the reception all neatly put together so they can do some simple cuts and say "Ok that's all edited now"

I certainly wouldn't offer to do a shoot only until the "editor" was 100% sure about exactly what they expect to receive and most don't so it always ends up as "I cannot fathom out all these files so you had better put it all together as "raw footage" !! For me raw footage is what's on the camera card untouched and copied onto a USB drive ..it's up to you to sort it, grade it, cut it and sweeten the audio too ... maybe the term "rough footage" should be used where the clips are made up into one but not tweaked.

Noa Put August 4th, 2015 12:59 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Years ago I offered my assistance as a favor to a videographer who send me several of his double bookings before, since he gave me extra work I offered my help for free once, a bit later he comes back if I can help out again as second shooter but this time I want to be paid, I tell him "just pay me whatever you pay your second shooters and thats fine by me" and then he pays me an amount which I won't bother mentioning how much it was because I"m sure you all will have a laugh at me. I accept the money and don't complain.

After that he calls me several times again to act as second shooter but I decline all his requests just saying that I"m busy. Like Roger I was insulted by the fact that I got paid for a full days work (17 hours on location) to shoot with my own equipment on the other side of the country (2 hour drive one way) and got the same amount what I normally would charge for kilometer allowance.

I didn't complain because I got what I asked for and I did owe him a favor but it was clear he saw a great opportunity of hiring a cheap experienced videographer, what started out as a favor ended in taking advantage of a person just for the sake of making money.

Paul R Johnson August 4th, 2015 01:08 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Like I said before, different worlds in the same place.

Forty quid an hour to walk in walk out. Plenty of people will take this and not object to charging a battery! Plenty of my friends have twenty grand worth of camera and glass on their shoulder and have finance plans on it. Not using it is bad business, so would take the money. Sitting at home watching countdown, or a few hours shooting it? If work is thin and the diary empty, I would take the job, and do. If you consider the amount demeaning, don't do it. Please remember that some of the people who are sneered at as being useless may actually be extremely skilled studio or location guys. Have you ever tried doing broadcast? Freelance guys might get one contract paying five hundred quid a day, and next day be working for one fifty. This has nothing to do with their quality or professionalism and skill. Freedom of work is a right, and if you say no that's fine. Wedding prices are in their own bubble. Nothing wrong with it, but it is NOT reflective of the video industry in general. Forty quid an hour is a lot of money. I suspect weddings may have drifted into one days work equals a week elsewhere. Good business. Today will be probably thirteen hours for me with a big production and will probably be £240. The six people working with me will get between 100 and 180 for their contribution. They pay for their own travel and food. Tea and coffee is supplied! Wedding people would not be my first port of call because they'd be disgusted with the money. Three of my crew are VERY experienced and competent people. We have five days of this. They consider it a good deal!

Noa Put August 4th, 2015 01:39 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Quote:

Today will be probably thirteen hours for me with a big production and will probably be £240
You are more or less getting the same as what I get for each wedding, remember that a wedding is not one day work, it's a week work including the editing where the actual shooting day can be counted as a double shift with an average of 16 to 18 hours on location.

Steve Burkett August 4th, 2015 01:43 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Paul whilst I agree with some of your points raised, it still goes back to the level of work involved when covering Weddings. What I charge for Corporate and even theatre jobs differs greatly from Weddings; mainly as the latter is so much more stressful than the former. Its hard to explain to anyone not familiar with the days work, but trying on your own to deliver tv and movie quality shots at the pace of live news reporting is extremely challenging; not at all like the many times I have worked as part of a team covering some Fashion Shows, Theatre productions and Corporate events. It demands a level of skill not called on when you're working within a team and the expectations of pay often goes hand in hand with it.

Those in the Industry I frown on or criticise may be highly skilled in their field, but if they're entering mine, I would expect some comparable skills to myself. Same as if I was to go into Broadcast, I would be expected to deliver to its standard of work, or else stay out of it.

That said, I do agree that the high prices of Wedding work, which does take into account pre-production and post production can blind one to think that £40 an hour is indeed a poor wage. Have there been times when I have felt exploited, yes; but I just don't work with that company again.

From Roger's perspective, I can see the issue - you're offering your skills, equipment and experience to a company that is potentially your competitor. I would ignore the other arguments such as time to charge batteries, SD Card downloads as this time is arguably negligible. Travel time could be a factor, but to be honest, it's not one I consider except for the cover of fuel costs.

I don't think the guys offer was so bad; I may disagree with his Business plan and 4 hour package, but he was offering in my mind a fair wage for the work. Would I take the job; I don't know. It would rather depend on how much a threat his business was to my own.

Roger Gunkel August 4th, 2015 03:19 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Paul, I think you are being a little disingenuous here. You said you are getting £240 for what could end up being a 13 hour day, but then you follow that up with saying that you have 5 days of it. In my eyes, that amounts to £1200 for 5 days work which is somewhat different to £160 for a few hours work competing with myself. If I could end up getting £1200 for a wedding I would be delighted.

I'll also repeat my earlier comment that £40 an hour is not a lot of return for the massive investment in time, equipment and experience that goes into being in a position to carry out the work. There are other considerations as well, one being that you can break it down as £40 per hour, but it is actually a days work as you would be unlikely to be able to take another job on the same day. It may sound a lot compared with what the UK minimum wage is, or what an average weekly wage broken down into hours would be, but that is only relevant if you are doing it for a whole week, plus there is the addition of the equipment that is being hired along with the operator. However, give me a camera, take me to a venue and pay me £40 an hour dry and I will be quite happy to film all day for you.

Have you seen what plumbers charge, how about car repairs, electricians, drain cleaners, or anyone that has specialised knowledge and equipment. Then of course you can try going to a solicitor if you really want to see huge hourly rates, or an accountant, medical specialist and others with years of experience.

I think this is becoming more of a thread about how we value our services and clearly many undervalue it. There are undoubtedly many who are able to point a camera and get ok footage that would be worth paying a minimum amount to, but there are many who I would consider experts who are worth much more. To be able to work in the rapidly changing environment of a wedding, coping with the unexpected, constantly changing lighting, audio problems, and fast action all as a matter of course while producing highly competent footage, coupled with high quality equipment, is not a service to be sold cheaply. Of course if you are sitting on your backside earning nothing and need some money to pay the bills, then anything is better than nothing. Fortunately I am not in that position and would rather sell up and do something else than denigrate what has taken years to build.

Roger

Steve Burkett August 4th, 2015 03:58 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
I think its not that we undervalue our work; its more to what level of pay we don't mind working for. Last minute call up for a job - £160; if I was offered this 3 months in advance, I'd say no, but with a few day, how likely would I get other work for that day. And I've tackled a couple of 3-4 hour jobs in a single day. Requires a bit of juggling, but I've combined a few Weddings where I'm starting 1pm with some work in the morning.

Personally I feel Plumbers, Electricians, Car Mechanics and especially Solicitors charge far too high. They've created this niche, where because it's not a luxury expense, people have to pay it. Video is in most cases an expense some couples can cut out, therefore this does limit the prices. Why do you think Photographers can charge more, its because its seen as more essential to Weddings than Video.

I think if you feel in a position to be able to turn down work, then that's a good thing. Maybe you feel that with x number of years experience, you deserve more to warrant taking a job. Fine, but there's money to be made in these smaller jobs. You shouldn't begrudge those who are prepared to take them or even those who offer them.

Daniel James August 4th, 2015 04:11 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett (Post 1894212)
Why do you think Photographers can charge more, its because its seen as more essential to Weddings than Video.

You cannot put a wedding video on permanent display, although it may need more effort to produce, from a buyers perspective, you may watch it once or twice and that's it.

My wedding video (ok vhs...) is still on the shelf, my wedding photos are still on the mantelpiece..

Noa Put August 4th, 2015 05:32 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Quote:

My wedding video (ok vhs...) is still on the shelf, my wedding photos are still on the mantelpiece..
You are right about that permanent display, it's something we never can achieve and a client always has take extra effort to watch their weddingfilm again. But times are changing and I see a 4-5 minute trailer as one the most important parts of a weddingday because they can easily share and watch it whevener or wherever they please, they can look at it on their tv, their tablet and smartphone and have it with them all the time, just like their wedding photo's. The time it takes to show some photos to friends they meet in a public place is the same time to show the trailer, they just take out their smarthpone and show your carefully crafted 4 to 5 minute summary of their weddingday.

Quote:

Why do you think Photographers can charge more, its because its seen as more essential to Weddings than Video.
I don't agree anymore though that photographers are paid more then videographers because their work is valued more (I used to because I live in a country where weddingvideo always has been undervalued), I see a clear change in how people value video, especially because it's so easy to share these days, I"m planning to stop shooting weddings as soon as I am able to but I am currently charging the same price as high end wedding photographers where I live, I don't get nearly as many booking requests as they do but considering I still do get requests means people are willing to pay the price if your work is good enough and I expect to see that changing more the next years.

This year for instance I also got a few couples with me that wanted to book me and asked if I could recommend a good photog, something that hardly happened in the past because the photog was also hired first, that for me is also a sign peoples opinion on videography is changing.

Steve Burkett August 4th, 2015 05:48 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Noa, the word I used was essential rather than valued. I still hold to this, though agree times are changing. How many couples hire a Photographer compared to a Videographer. How many Weddings lack a Professional Photographer or even someone handling Photography vs someone handling video or Professional video. That to me suggests Photography is viewed in some way and form as an essential requirement of a Wedding. Couples will have the conversation - we need a Photographer, but many won't even consider video. My last Wedding was a case in point; booked late, the couple never considered video till a friend of theirs that I filmed their Wedding for, persuaded them.

As you say times are changing and mainly because our work can now be viewed by people wider than the immediate family; at least for those Videographers who offer online videos. Many of my videos, no doubt like yours get new views on the couple's Wedding Anniversary. In fact one got more views on the anniversary than it did first time round.

Daniel's point about the mantlepiece is fine, except I have some photos I took 10 years ago on display, when I was heavily into Photography. They're there, but how often do I really look at them - hardly ever. They're just in the background. Whereas a video of a recent holiday I've got on youtube I've viewed more as it's so accessible to so many of my devices.

David Barnett August 4th, 2015 07:00 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Odd, I got a call similar to this back in April. The caller ID was a Texas ph#, but googling the # didn't find anything. The caller said his shooter cancelled on him, and he neededa video shooter for a wedding nearby tomorrow (He called me on a Friday). Only thing is my cousin was getting married that evening, and as a guest, I wanted to have my turn in the fun, not taking it easy & thinking about the next days last minute shoot.

He didn't seem like he was calling from a big box company, which there's a couple of in the US, just seemed like a guy with a bad business model & trying to expand & accept gigs too fast. I never asked the rate, as I didn't want it to sound like 'Oh, that's all, I can't do it', since I really wanted to pass on it anyway. But the guy sounded desperate, so I gave him a ph# of another guy I know who shoots them. I called him a few days later, and he said it went well, shot it, edited it, got paid a decent rate. So I'm not sure if that's what the guy was originally paying his videographer, or if he knew he needed to jack up his rates in the final hour to book somebody, and myb he just wanted him to edit it to just be done with it.

Anyway, the whole thing struck me as odd. While it would be great to try to massively expand & run a business model of finding cheap video & photo available at the last minute and book mass quantity weddings, the stress of things like this would make it not worthwhile for me. I guess some people shot a few weddings and feel like they'd rather run the business end of it, taking the bookings & outsourcing the crew. Not ideal, especially when you got a bride & groom relying on you for your big day.

Roger Gunkel August 4th, 2015 09:10 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel James (Post 1894213)
You cannot put a wedding video on permanent display, although it may need more effort to produce, from a buyers perspective, you may watch it once or twice and that's it.

My wedding video (ok vhs...) is still on the shelf, my wedding photos are still on the mantelpiece..

I do wedding photography and wedding video and have spoken to a large number of previous customers. I find that almost without exception, those that have both, watch the video far more often than they look at the photos. They may well have a picture on the mantelpiece, but I am frequently told that the photo album gathers dust where the video is looked at on their anniversary, the kids often get it out etc, whereas the photos are just a still image frozen in time. The video captures their laughter, emotion, tears and so much more.

Whenever I see a previous customer, I always ask them if they ever look at their video and/or photos and it is always the video.

Roger

Roger Gunkel August 4th, 2015 09:30 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
I don't believe that wedding photography is seen as essential and a video as non essential. I see the photography as traditional and the video as non traditional. Photography has been around as long as the modern style of wedding, which is about 150 years. It's traditional in the same way that the dress is traditional, although the dress also is certainly not essential.

As more and more people have a video over the years, the more will see it and want one. It's a slow process but in another twenty years will probably be as common as photography. At the moment, when I am doing a joint package, I often take a really good frame from the video that wasn't taken as a still and now with two 4k cameras, I will be doing a lot more frame grabbing. I can see over the years that stills will be more commonly taken from video and certainly as 8k eventually arrives as it certainly will, it would be logical to use video and lift whatever frame is the best, not bothering with a stills camera at all.

From a cheap wedding viewpoint, things will change as it will be easy to use one camera and crop the video to get the closeup, with perhaps another for a different angle. All stills could be lifted from the video, with the only differences being the need to pose groups and romantic shots. It's basically how I work now on a solo joint shoot, but no doubt there will be companies subcontracting in operators as the accuracy of the footage will be less critical when you can crop from 8k, or even 4k at the moment.

Roger

Paul R Johnson August 4th, 2015 09:46 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
My wedding video is on Betamax, and I can't play it anymore, not that I have even tried, dating back to 1980, but some of the photos are still in frames. I guess they're just different products.

Noa Put August 4th, 2015 10:15 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Quote:

My wedding video is on Betamax, and I can't play it anymore
Send it to me, I still have a betamax player here so I can put your weddingfilm on dvd. Actually, there are many who provide betamax or vhs to dvd tranfers but maybe you don't want to be reminded how old you actually got. :)

Steve Burkett August 4th, 2015 10:17 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel (Post 1894230)
I don't believe that wedding photography is seen as essential and a video as non essential.

As more and more people have a video over the years, the more will see it and want one.

I can see over the years that stills will be more commonly taken from video

Okay I'm thinking along those lines, I just used the word (misplaced maybe) essential rather than traditional.

I don't think frame grabs will replace or limit true Photography. They are 2 disciplines despite some combining them. Shutter rule which I feel becomes more relevant with 4K limits quality with frame grabs, not to mention nailing focus with moving subjects and besides most Photographers are frequently shooting portrait throughout the day. Things become fashionable and yes frame grabs may have their time, but not necessarily at the expense of Photography. There's too much skill in great Photography to simply be replaced with a video camera still. I agree for budget Weddings it will be become more an option and there will be companies capitalising on it. However when those stills are competing with guests taking Photos themselves, some on expensive dslr's, those frames will have to be HQ to be seen to compete. You can't fire a flash whilst taking video.

As for accuracy of the footage being less critical if you crop from 4K and 8K; I think you need to shoot a whole lot more of 4K before making that statement. Accuracy is if anything even more important with 4K. The slightest and I mean slightest out of focus and I can see it clearly even on my 720p screen. At some point a small external monitor will be an important investment for me if I wish to one day shoot 4K to be seen as 4K.

Matthias Claflin August 4th, 2015 11:07 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
As I read through all this, I see that Paul mentions that he would rather work for less on a day when he wasn't working, because at least that way he is making money. However, isn't the supply/demand supposed to dictate the price? Meaning the supply of videographers not working (probably few if it is in the heat of wedding season) with a high demand, should be more money, not less?

To me, I've been shooting music videos, concert videos, corporate stuff for the past 3 years and only entered into weddings this year so maybe I don't understand.

I just recently had a potential music video client ask me to shoot them a video for their song, literally two days after I heard the song for the first time. He then wanted me to shoot this short notice video at my usual rate, to which I told him it wasn't going to happen. I told him I could shoot the video but because of all the planning that was involved in a music video, even if it is just a "performance" video, and the editing (since the turnaround was a week later), I would have to put other projects off to finish it in time, and therefore he would have to pay a premium price if he wanted the job done on his time frame. He wasn't interested so I wished him well and went about my day. Did I make money that day? No. But I also didn't devalue my product or my other products in order to make a few extra bucks.

Bottom line, you get to choose between good, fast, and cheap, but you only get to pick two, and I refuse to make anything that isn't my best work.

Paul R Johnson August 4th, 2015 01:09 PM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
While understand the concept, in practice I have bills to pay, and principles are great, but don't buy food. I'm lucky in that I do quite a few different things and really don't have the luxury of saying no that often. I'm sure many wedding people can do other work too during the week, but many are properly in business. I turn work down when I can afford it, but sometimes I have to do stuff I really don't want to. I does not devalue my work. It's business. I have to sometimes do less than my best work because events conspire against me. This evening, for instance, two hours of careful plotting is wrecked when at the last minute the turns move the kit around on stage with the house tabs in. When they go out, all the carefully lit and marked X's on the floor are no longer right, and the only solution is to light big chunks of the stage. Many songs look dreadful. Not my best work, but out of my control. This afternoon's was much better. Pay is nothing to do with it? I do the best I can at any negotiated fee. Price does NOT indicate quality for me, and I suspect the fees are just what is economically viable for a particular production. If weddings allow you to charge lots of money, because the whole industry is a premium product, that's fine. It's not an indicator of quality. If you had an expensive finance package on broadcast kit, would you care what you are using it for if it generates income? A day of shooting industrial washing machines is not as exciting as hang gliding, but pays more?

Roger Gunkel August 4th, 2015 03:31 PM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Paul you can probably employ Gordon Ramsey at his normal rate then ask him to fry chips all day, it's not his fault if he can't do his best work for you. but you wouldn't get him to fry chips at a chip fryer's rate when he's not working so why expect a respected videographer who is capable of much more to work for less if he doesn't need to.
Also Paul I think you will find that not only the technical quality, but also the production values and content of wedding video has advanced considerably in the last 35 years.

Steve, when I say less accuracy I mean more regarding composition and precise closeups etc, rather than focus, which I think is a prerequisite at any level. I agree with you that there will always be a requirement for imaginative and artistic photographers, but I do think that much of the mundane photography work at weddings will be perfectly achievable with HQ video frames in the coming years. You can still set a pose as for a still, but shoot 5-7 seconds of video to pick your still frame and also use in the video.

Matthias,'Bottom line is you get to choose between good, fast and cheap, but you only get to pick two'
Great line and absolutely on the nail!

Roger

Steve Burkett August 4th, 2015 04:12 PM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel (Post 1894247)
so why expect a respected videographer who is capable of much more to work for less if he doesn't need to.

Well obviously if you don't need the work then you have every right to not do it; no one is forcing you. I think the original post you made suggested the work offer was almost insulting. I think the arguments being made here is that its not. It may feel insulting to you. Maybe it's too low a fee to merit getting in that car. However others may feel differently.

I've turned down work when available because to do it and edit the material would impede my other work. However I still feel £40 an hour is a worthwhile fee. I can't help but wonder if this was £40 an hour, for 50 hours of work, you would have replied differently, subject to whether doing this work would cause other issues like helping a competitor or impede other work you're doing. If so, then the fact you refused it comes down really to the small number of hours involved, making the £40 an hour somewhat a low fee for a Wedding.

Now I would take an offer of £40 an hour for 50 hours work. £2000. Yep, do me nicely. However if I can take the job for £40 an hour for 50 hours of work and not feel like it's insulting my worth as a professional, how is it an insult when the work is 4 hours for the same per hour rate. Should more be paid per hour when the hours are 4 rather than 50.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel (Post 1894247)
You can still set a pose as for a still, but shoot 5-7 seconds of video to pick your still frame and also use in the video.

That would work very nicely; so many Photographers complain of blinkers in a crowd and video would help limit or even solve that problem. Mind you, come wet weather when you're forced indoors, then that is where the Professionals earn their fee. I've seen good ones and bad ones handle those conditions. The Professionals have proper studio lighting equipment and effortlessly get through it whilst those less experienced try and make it work with a bounce flash. Delivering good work when conditions are right is easy, delivering when everything is stacked against you is another matter. So video whilst a solution in some cases would suffer in others.

David Barnett August 4th, 2015 05:39 PM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias Claflin (Post 1894238)
As I read through all this, I see that Paul mentions that he would rather work for less on a day when he wasn't working, because at least that way he is making money. However, isn't the supply/demand supposed to dictate the price? Meaning the supply of videographers not working (probably few if it is in the heat of wedding season) with a high demand, should be more money, not less?

To me, I've been shooting music videos, concert videos, corporate stuff for the past 3 years and only entered into weddings this year so maybe I don't understand.

I just recently had a potential music video client ask me to shoot them a video for their song, literally two days after I heard the song for the first time. He then wanted me to shoot this short notice video at my usual rate, to which I told him it wasn't going to happen. I told him I could shoot the video but because of all the planning that was involved in a music video, even if it is just a "performance" video, and the editing (since the turnaround was a week later), I would have to put other projects off to finish it in time, and therefore he would have to pay a premium price if he wanted the job done on his time frame. He wasn't interested so I wished him well and went about my day. Did I make money that day? No. But I also didn't devalue my product or my other products in order to make a few extra bucks.

Bottom line, you get to choose between good, fast, and cheap, but you only get to pick two, and I refuse to make anything that isn't my best work.

Its a bit of give & take. Similar to airlines, I think they jack up the prices as the date gets closer, however in the final days prior to the flight the prices drop, as they have the vacant seats still & are better unloading them for cheap. Same with hotels.

Sure you can ask for higher rates, and the guy will likely pass & call around, If they don't find someone else, they'll call you back in a pinch. Otherwise, you lost the gig. Sometimes I could've used the money, sometimes admittedly I enjoy a summer Saturday off.

I don't normally receive or get these type of phone calls or emails. I think I received a strange email that I passed on, it was up near NYC & just some red flags, plus I think they also wanted it edited all for cheap, as I know the NYC rates are wayyyy higher than mine, and I didn't want to travel 2 hours & fear about traffic up that way. AFAIK the regular big chains do not operate this way & schedule people a few months in advance. I don't like last minute things being dropped onto me as its not my problem. But if the wages are ok (isn't $80 UK a pretty decent rate? I'm converting to US Dollar), is that just to shoot it or also for editing fees, delivery, customer service end of it as far as feedback, re-edits etc..In other words I would shoot a wedding for $100/hour, but I wouldn't shoot, edit & deliver a 4 hour wedding for $400.

Chris Harding August 4th, 2015 06:52 PM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
My personal view here is not the rate per hour but the actual hours involved! If someone wants me to do a 2 hour ceremony it does cost them more per hour than an 8 hours wedding per hour because both events still have the same pre-event setups, loading, unloading and travelling!! Let's say (just rough figures) prior to a wedding, I need to shower, change, check and prepare gear, load the car and drive to the venue and setup early and lets put that "time" at 3 hours in total. If I'm paid $100.00 an hour I'll make $200 for the 2 hour gig and $800 for the 8 hour gig since the company isn't going to pay me for any prep time ..it's only onsite time.

So the 8 hour gig actually soaks up 11 hours of my time reducing my hourly rate to $72.00 an hour. Now, the short gig involves 5 hours of my time so for this one I only make $40 an hour ...only 40% of my offered rate. Set up and travel/ prep do take up your time so there is a point where you have to say XX an hour isn't worth it! If I shoot a ceremony I cost it out at a much higher rate for onsite time that the client sees simply because whether I do a 2 hour shoot or a 22 hour shoot I still have prep time to consider.

For a fixed rate offer from another company you surely must get down to a point where the shoot is so short that is doesn't become viable for you to do it ??

Steve Burkett August 4th, 2015 11:35 PM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Oddly enough Chris I tend to have a shower everyday regardless of whether I'm filming or not. Perhaps things are different in Australia. Including shower time in ones working day seems a bit of a stretch, but there you go. Takes me 5 minutes to get dressed, 15 to check equipment and 5 minutes to pack the car. Journey time, well if it was lengthy like an hour or more, I agree the £160 seems less appetising. A 10 mile drive Roger described, if only all my jobs were so close.

As far as I'm concerned setup at the venue is part of the filming time. Sure I may arrive early as I left in good time to get there, but I don't feel the need to start work till the 4 hours scheduled. I suppose I could factor in 90 minutes as extra time, but 3 hours. Maybe I just move a little quicker than everyone else. :)

Chris Harding August 4th, 2015 11:53 PM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Just for interest I have regular shave/shower times especially to wake me up in the morning. If I was doing a ceremony shoot only it would be more than likely around the 2pm to 3pm time slot so I certainly don't want to get into my gear at 7am so in those cases I would shower after lunch, check and load gear and head off .. if I wasn't doing a wedding then I would be lounging around in scruffy clothes and just have an evening shower so yes, it adds into my work period. I also have the habit of arriving earlier than necessary after I had the unfortunate experience of heading to the Church once to set up with the limo right behind me! When I cost out a wedding it includes not only shoot time but also setup and travel time too ... on an 8 hour wedding I cost myself out at 10 hours just for the shoot ...doing a ceremony only I need to not cost for 4 hours but for 6 hours so there does come a point when it's no longer a viable shoot if someone else is paying by the hour.... Ok at 40 pounds an hour what would you do if the client wanted you just for an hour??? Is it really worth your while heading out on even a 10 mile drive to earn 40 quid??? There must be a cut off point at a fixed hourly rate where you decide "it's just not worth it"

Paul R Johnson August 5th, 2015 12:18 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
I like to separate money and job satisfaction when I can. For example, I quite fancied the three days on a P&O mini cruise that involved an out two hours work, and a day in port. Decent fee, easily worth being away three days. Said yes, and as far as I work, saying yes means I do the job even though the contract comes afterwards. The job lost the sparkle when I discovered the word "cruise" should have had "booze" before it and the port day is in a Northern European industrial district! Still money of course, and still exactly the same job.

I also do a few freebies for worthy causes, when I volunteer. I rarely do freebies when they ask me, because they are just taking the pee.

Yesterday ended up as 14 hours start to finish, with perhaps 4 of hard work, including a half mile walk with camera and kit from the nearest parking, for the fee I mentioned. It's a job. It's not high art, or bafta material.

Steve Burkett August 5th, 2015 12:20 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding (Post 1894275)
Ok at 40 pounds an hour what would you do if the client wanted you just for an hour??? Is it really worth your while heading out on even a 10 mile drive to earn 40 quid??? There must be a cut off point at a fixed hourly rate where you decide "it's just not worth it"

I think 4 hours about the minimum for a Wedding shoot. To be honest if as low as 1 hour, then travel time becomes less absorbed into the day's fee and you have every right to include it in your hourly rate. If I was hiring someone for an hour, I'd factor in travel time in hours worked. I'd probably not expect to have to pay the guy to have a shower or get dressed, but once leaving the house...

However my years working for a University help me to see the other side here. There were times I had to pop in for an hour or two for one reason or another. Oddly the University never thought to pay me for getting ready or for travel time. I admit fulltime work carries different bonuses than a one off job, but I think working for yourself in Weddings filming can blind one to the real world. My brother is a manager for a firm that pays crap wages, take home pay less than £1600 a month. 37 hours a week, plus he's often expected being a manager to stay late unpaid. Often this works out as 1-2 hours a night - so as much as 10 hours a week unpaid. Their answer to this - you're lucky to have a job.

You want to think £40 an hour for 4 hours Wedding work is exploitation, fine, but maybe if you had a taste of real exploitation, you might look at that money and be grateful for it.

Roger Gunkel August 5th, 2015 03:38 AM

Re: Asked to film for another company
 
Steve I think you are digging your heels in on an arguable point with no real need. For a 4 hour shoot, it would be 4 hours of filming, so for me, whether it was for myself or someone else, I would allow 6 hours. In this particular instance although only 10 miles away, it was for a venue in the middle of a busy town centre on a Friday where the venue has no parking and other parking is a nightmare and would involve a long walk. I also like to allow for unforeseen emergencies like breakdowns, accidents etc, plus checking out the venue, talking to management, meeting the Bride and setting up gear. If you are happy to only allow 30 minutes to get ready, load up and hope there are no hold ups etc, then that is fine and we obviously work with different margins and safeguards, but that is our own choice. Again in this particular instance, we are talking about starting filming at 11am and finishing at 3pm so once I am home, unpacked, downloaded footage and put batteries on charge, then I have basically done a days work. I don't consider £160 less fuel and parking a reasonable return for that effort and equipment. 10 hours at the same rate, would still be a days work but would bring in £400 which would be a fair return.

I was also not insulted by the pricing offer as you said, but if you look at my original post, it was the fact that after I turned it down he proceeded to insult my 'Funny little pink old school website' and question how I could possibly get work from it and that it must be word of mouth only. At that point I just laughed and wished him luck.

Roger


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:51 AM.

DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2024 The Digital Video Information Network