What gives with these lights
 

From yeaterday's wedding. The DJ had 2 banks of 4 X LED lights (big circular things) and they were the only source of light in the marquee, washing saturated blue over everything, I've never seen lights so intensly coloured like this before - I could not expose properly at all unless I went really close to the subject and blasted them with my own LED light.

What I found really strange was that when my camera thought the shot was correctly exposed, to my eyes it was way over, there was no detail in the guy's shirts - I had a little time so I hooked up my smallHD monitor and took a bead on these 2 guys - they both had white shirts on so I took the gain up until I saw zebras just coming in on the brightest part of the shirt (set at 95%) and in the montor all the detail had gone from the shirts - they were simply a wash of blue, so dialling down and letting the camera think it was about 2 stops under exposed I finally saw detail coming back.

Also I tried a manual white balance on the shirt - looked aweful and then dialled through the Kelvin scale and again - I could find no WB temperature that made them look vaguely human!

Putting my light on fixed things but is far from desirable as I had to get really close - nightmare - worst reception lighting I have ever encountered!

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Very similar experience I had with last year with them DJ's. They don't give a rat's a&# about the video and I had one that just did not limit his blue wash. I really don't get what they are intending to achieve with that particular color and the only guess I have is getting that "black light" look where everything that is white will really stand out. The one I had experienced with last year I solved the problem on the spot. I simply showed the bride a few clips of that garbage and told her that is what she will get and she immediately went up to the DJ and after a few short words all went back to normal for the rest of the evening. I really think that talking about the DJ should be mentioned or at least be part of the clauses in the contract that frees us from their lighting extravaganza being recorded. If the bride says it's OK and she prefers it that way, I would make absolutely sure I record her saying that when i bring it up at the venue.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Seriously Arthur it was like being underwater!

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Was that shot with a sony a7s? I recall seeing shots during the dancing part where the camera had problems displaying blue led right. My camera's have similar problems with red led but not so bad with blue.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Please don't tell me you recorded the entire evening like that. If you did and the bride complains, I would be very quick to point out the fact that she hired bunch of incompetent clowns that had no regard for her video memories that last way longer than their few hours of their underwater display. I would imagine that it must have ben nauseating to the guests. Perhaps this is what she wanted and was her idea,

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Hi Pete

Those Colbalt Blue LED lights are the worst of the bunch! The only thing you can do is get in a close as you can and light couples with an on camera light ..of course the background and any wide shots will still be blue!

I have actually seen footage where the image posterises due to the lights. I haven't had any issues with red lights like Noa has ..only the blue ones.

However I have never seen it that bad! Maybe the A7S is just too sensitive in low light so it picks up every scrap of blue in the room?? Yeah, hopefully all the footage is not like that. That was one reason why I started dropping my packages from "end at midnight" to "end after the first dance" That way the DJ lights don't affect me but if you have the marquee lit like that from the start, there is not much you can do!!

Re: What gives with these lights
 

I ended up filming mainly near the door where people entered as more natural light was spilling in from there, and If I did enter deeper into the marquee I got up close with my own light which helped (I'm trying to upload an example jpeg but it won't let me) - but that leads to other problems such as people telling you to sod off or turning their backs or simply looking all self aware and embrassed - The reason I switched to the A7s was to avoid using an on-camera light and here I am again - back in the same position :(

During the dancing his lights switched from blue to red to green - all awful but the blue was the worst!

I can bet that when booking a DJ 99.9% of brides never consider lighting - many in fact leave it to the venue to sort out. I have a clause in my terms regarding poor lighting and environmental conditions affecting the quality of filming, but I'm thinking now about raising it with them at the time of booking. I just need to work out how to word it without making it look like I'm apologising for not having the appropriate equipment to cope with advserse lighting conditions!

Re: What gives with these lights
 

This form of cour wash lighting seems to be becoming fashionable with DJs at the moment, a bit like the annoying dancing green lazer blobs.

My standard contract also has a reference to lighting beyond our control, so I have a simple policy of recording it how it is. If I don't like the music I don't try to change it, and the same with the lighting, it''s their wedding not mine, I'm there to capture it. The lastt couple of weddings have been washed with LED light changing from blue to red every few minutes, apart from making sure that the colors aren't posterising, I just film what I see and use a camera light if I want to show closer things in more normal light, especially during the first dance. Even adding quite low level white light makes a big difference, so you haven't got to blind them.

Setting white balance in these colour washes is pointless as there is nothing to balance to. Even if you get the colour temperature right it will still be blue (or red) :-(

Roger

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Not saying these blue led look fine on my camera's, they don't but they at least retain detail, red led's otoh make my footage look out of focus, if I in post switch to black and white all detail is back again. I have had parts of the dancing where I made it black and white, just because it looked horrible in red.

These colored led's are here to stay, I have seen them appearing the past years and it's something the couple has not much to say about, it either can't be changed or they don't think about that.

I often mention it to couples when we first meet and show them how bad red light can look and if they could ask their DJ or venue if they could limit the use of red light or if they just could add just white light but when the wedding is there it's as bad as it gets, even if I ask the venue or dj for some changes nothing happen so this year I just took it as it came.

Adding a videolight doesn't help that much, unless it's a strong one and you are shooting up close but that is not something that is appreciated on the dancefloor.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Here's a shot from my CX730 with an LED-5080 light on full - still didn't make much inroad into the blue light

Re: What gives with these lights
 

But you can see that the cx730 deals a lot better with the blue light, at least it looks better from a distance but I might be wrong, I think it's a typical a7s problem that it can't handle these kind of blue led's well. The led lights are much more powerful then a videolight, you almost need to stand next to your subject for best effect.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

This is from the CX730 set to auto exposure but minus 1/2 a stop with no additional lighting from me - just the DJ horrible lights

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Still I find the blue with the a7s much more harsh.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Pete I really think you are worrying too much about this. If you were making an independent movie about a wedding, then you would have it all scripted and lighting and sound carefully prepared. You are not though, you are making a record of their day to the best of your ability based on choices made by your client.

Unless the couple and their guests are actually complaining about the lighting, then you need to accept that they are happy with it. If the cameras can't give normal looking pictures in blue and red lighting, it's not a movie set, it's not your problem. The scenes will just look blue or red on the video, just as they did on the day- job done!

Roger

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Never encountered lighting conditions this bad, however I did have a couple of DJs with colour-changing leds or rgbs. When this happens, I usually add an extra fresnel or two to overpower their lights and make sure to shoot from the opposite direction (so any coloured light that's left only acts as back light).

Re: What gives with these lights
 

That's what I would think too Roger, that's how it was and someone said its pointless trying to white balance in those lighting conditions, yes, that's right, you cant. I've a PMW320 and when I come across lighting like that I just select the indoor preset white balance and you know, it turns out not so bad but I would also use my video light. (LED-312A)

Re: What gives with these lights
 

For the first dance, cake, speeches and first dance I'll shine a light on them from a light stand. I don't like the look of a light straight on from the camera so I think it gives a better look. Usually it's enough light to off set the colored lights from where they are dancing.

I usually take the dancing footage either as it is or shine those lights on the dance floor. If it's dimmed enough and doesn't take away from the atmosphere of the evening I've never had anyone complain.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

One thing I never do with strong coloured lighting is to shine my white light to counter it. All it does is create a mixed lighting effect - I have coloured filters to ensure my lighting is consistent with the room. When it cycles between different colours I'll use something like orange or not bother with the light at all.

I've had extreme lighting situations, couple of times with a strong pinkish colour. White balance is pointless here; for normal lighting conditions its the golden rule, but for indoor lighting, trying to force the video to natural skin tones and colour seems to me to rob the image of some of the rooms ambience. Now okay the blue is perhaps a little too much ambience for taste, but if that's how it was, that's how I record it. Lets not pretend the lighting was something else. I personally don't mind a bit of colour in my image - DJ lighting may not be to every person's taste, but often there's no lighting at all and I find that more an issue than strong coloured lighting.

The only issue I see in lighting is if the camera records it in a way that is not consistent to how the room looks or if there are technical problems like banding and/or posterization in the image.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

My lights are usually set to 3200 not daylight. I didn't explain that well. It matches closely enough to the actual lights in the room and offsets the colored LEDs.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Theres no way to WB out the colour but I find if you use a daylight temp of 6000-7000k it stops it being so bright and neon.

Watch strictly come dancing on the BBC and you will see they get the same problem.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Here is a post I went on about these cheap LED lights. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-...se-lights.html

It's just laziness. DJ's buy these cheap lights, make the whole room red/blue/green and think nothing of what it does to the photographer, videographer, or the product they produce. Not all DJ's are this naive, but some are.

I also have a clause in my contract as well as one in my planning sheet. And I'll walk right up to a DJ and let him know that if he doesn't include white light on the dance floor at least, it's going to affect my video pictures. Sometimes they care, and sometimes they just blow me off. If that doesn't work, I crank my Frezzi's and keep his lights to my back at least.

Again, to make the whole room blue is a lame attempt to reproduce something seen on the bachelorette tv show. I still hate these lights.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

This is a well documented problem with Sony cameras which they seem unwilling or incapable of fixing. Best work around is to use white balance above 5600k and adjust colour in post

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Yeah, but, let's face it... most are.

I still DJ 30 weddings a year and bought wirelessly controlled up lighting a few years ago. That means I can CHANGE the color on the fly. So, during speeches and the first dance, the entire room turns white instead of plum or, last week, dark red.

Doing video I've had issues with this sort of lighting and lasers... so many lasers. Dots everywhere.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

I love it when we dig up old threads like the one linked to. Mainly because since that one was started, LED brightness has gone up drastically. Don;t blame the DJs for using cheap lighting. I'm heading off to pantomime in a couple of weeks and going through the technical specs I'm organising, the LD is spending a huge budget on LED moving lights. Three grand a pop and he has loads of them. Lighting designers in professional shows and TV simply love them because for them, the ability to throw huge quantities of saturated light is a bonus. The DJs now have access to modest priced kit that can do the same, and I have to admit that I love the effect. In one show recently, at the last minute I had to record the show, and the blue scenes were horrible. However, nobody had asked the lighting people to set lighting for the video, and as it had taken days to rehearse, changing it simply to make the video better was out of the question.

Is the video more important than the DJ's set? In a wedding it's always a clash between people who think their contribution is the critical one. If the bride and groom (or in my case, the client) are happy - then that's it.

A nice get out clause in the contract just in case seems a good move, but don't lose sleep on the lighting. Unless the event is so well planned that all the contributors meet and talk before hand, then just do what you can.

Saturated light is here to stay, and getting brighter month on month. Why does nobody ever blame the camera manufacturers who seem to ignore the problem.

In TV and Theatre, it's common practice to give the lighting designer a monitor during rehearsals so these issues can be seen and tweaked before lighting is plotted. If you watch things like strictly - you will see the light on the people is always controlled and the saturated stuff used with great care. They don't just make everything blue. They could, but the vision people talk to the lighting people. In a wedding this is impossible.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Paul, you shouldn't blame video guys for being concerned about video. It's our job to be concerned. It doesn't mean we think we are the most important people in the Wedding, it just means we are concerned about doing our job as well as we can.

Issues that can cause us problems should be discussed as only through shared experiences and know how, some solution can be found or at the very least an acceptance of the problem. It may seem like moaning and in some ways it is, but if this was a conversation down the pub, perhaps you'd be more forgiving and take it in its proper context.

That said, I'm not one of those whose bothered by the lighting. Yep even those dots thrown about on people doesn't really faze me. Personally I can't see the issue. DJ lighting is what it is, don't fight it, don't try and make it something it is not. If the camera struggles with it, do the best you can. Really we are talking dance footage. I've seen too many videographers struggle with lighting and forget to capture some good dance floor footage. I prefer DJ lighting whatever weird form it takes to no lighting at all. So what if they're dots. You're filming people dancing the boogie not having a romantic moment to be captured in cinematic glory.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

I agree about the dancing part, colored lights are just a part of it and here I don't care what color they use but the most important part, the first dance, is also lit in harsh red only, or blue only, and that is just plain horrible to watch. Only for that part I always ask the DJ if he can add some white light or at least cycle true different color lights but that is most of the time not being considered and they use red because "it looks so nice".

Talking about DJ's, in my 10 years of doing weddings I never encountered a female DJ, why would that be? Who knows they would have better taste then men when it comes to selecting lights for the dancing part :)

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Well, the lasers can wreck your sensor, but sometimes they take it too far.

I couldn't find the worst shot, but to give you some idea...

Re: What gives with these lights
 

Lasers are a different matter as they can damage my cameras. In such cases I never shoot into them. There's also lighting that can cause other issues with the camera like banding and posterisation which is a concern to me.

However aside from avoiding laser damage to my cameras, general lighting such as in the image you'be shown is less a concern. As long as my camera reproduces what the lighting was, I never see a problem. Even 1st dance lighting - well to be honest the photographers and guests camera flashes cause more disruption to the 1st dance filming for me than bad lighting.

Aside from lasers and a rare case where the venues lighting and not the DJs caused some of my cameras to have black lines scrolling down the screen, I've never once found issue with the lighting for the evening except where there is none.

Maybe I'm too relaxed about it all, but weird dots on people's faces are how it looked on the night. Am I suppose to also turn a wet day into a sunny one, an over weight bride into a thin one or make a dull speech into a funny masterpiece. I'm a videographer not a magician.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

With some DJ's it's pure inexperience too. On Sunday we had a young DJ (he said it was only his 2nd wedding) who looked like he was 12 years old!! He started at 5pm, the sun was still shining outside yet every light in his rig was running including lasers! I respectfully mentioned to him about what lasers can do to camera sensors and he did turn them off for me. I told him we finish after the first dance and he can then blast the guests on the dance floor with anything he liked. It was weird though with all his lights (including the one that creates millions of dots running all night even while guest were having pre-dinner drinks!! At least he did listen to me!!

Re: What gives with these lights
 

I always think of the bride, she spent 5k on a wedding dress that on her first dance is either smurf blue or puke green. I actually blame the DJ industry, those companies that make lighting so cheap, it looks exactly like the cost.

It's like our equipment, price and quality does matter. Some of the best DJ's I've worked with, put their money where their mouth was. A DJ that has three times as much in his lighting is probably more invested in knowing how and when to push the right button to enhance the event.

It's also what people see on TV, I used to watch weddings by David Tutera, and his lighting was awesome, and yep, probably 5k plus in lighting trees etc. So brides watch that on TV and say, 'hey, DJ can you give me some awesome blue lighting' so there ya have it, Blue LEDs.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

The problem is that the cameras do not reproduce the lighting as it was seen. The deeply pink image that Robert posted is typical. I'm sure it did not look as pink as that at the time. The cameras overemphasis the depth of colour & it's impossible to white balance it out. I started a thread on this forum about the issue with the pink lights over 3 years ago. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-...reception.html

Obviously from the OP there are now blue lights that do the same.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

The pink picture you refer to was more to illustrate the use of lasers and the dots you see on people rather than the colour and its hard to judge lighting from a single small frame. I've never denied that cameras can't reproduce some lighting. However as long as a close enough proximation is found, I don't see any reason for the couple to complain. They're not going to expect natural skin tones from such deep lighting. Well I've never been picked up on it despite a few occasions of intence lighting.

The issues mentioned here aren't just strong blue or pink lighting, but lasers producing dots on people, fast changing colours and other lighting effects some feel is unflattering or aesthetically displeasing. All of which I don't see myself as an issue. Cases where my camera can't reproduce to an acceptable standard the lighting effects being used, then yes this is an issue, but one equally to be blamed on my camera gear as some cameras handle it better than others. However good colour and effective lighting are issues for me throughout the day and frankly a lack of any lighting is more a concern than examples seen here.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

I have no problem with lasers dots & changing colours etc & neither do the cameras. The colours may not be accurate but as it's all so fast moving & changing then nobody notices. The deep saturated pink or blue where the cameras overemphasise the intensity of the colour is a problem for which there is no solution other than adding your own very bright white light.

Re: What gives with these lights
 

That's bad... worst I've seen. I wondered if it was at all salvageable. With a bit of massaging in post it could be pulled back to some degree of normal. It could look more like this? I suppose one could leave some blue in the scene if you wished.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: What gives with these lights
 

I just grabbed these images from a show a couple of weeks ago - one of my cameras is fixed in a position and simply feeds a couple of video monitors backstage - fixed focus but left on auto exposure, in this case on the spot setting which closes the iris a little to compensate for the typical theatrical hotspot scenario. The magenta lighting and the blue are simply horrible. The trouble is, they look really nice to the eye - the JVC camera (a 5100) has real issues with these two colours - the mixed lighting image is fine, and looks very similar. In my job I also shoot stills on DSLRs (not video) and I updated one and the newer one also has colour issues - not this blowout - but it finds red through to blue very difficult. It has issues with accurate rendering of these colours - they all seem identical. The older camera is fine.