Harsh?

Noa Put · June 7th, 2016, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clive McLaughlin

IHow are the speeches more our thing than the photographers?

How is the photoshoot more the photogs thing then ours, it might be called a "photoshoot" but that's also the time I might need to do a videoshoot with some posed shots with the couple. If you are professional you work together so both can do their job, you just don't tell the other person to stay away completely.

Noa Put · June 7th, 2016, 09:57 AM

Not sure if you watched Ray Romans workshop, he also considers the speeches his domain, he sets the lights and the mood and even supplies his own mike and decides where it's going to be placed. I"m sure he never would have gotten where he is today if a photog would tell him what to do, he also need that time during a photoshoot to get his beautyshots and I"m sure he works together with the photog to achieve that.

I think if a couple would just buy what a photog tells them they most likely don't respect your work as much but if they have to pay 10K for a Ray Roman video and they want their film to look exactly like the examples they have seen you can be sure they will not accept any private time with a photog if that would mean Ray loosing some important time/shots.

Should you care? I think if you value your work and reputation, you probably will, if you are in it for the money and just want to move on to the next assignment asap, you probably would care a bit less. If caring means having a ego, then I"m guilty.

Peter Rush · June 7th, 2016, 10:41 AM

Well i seemed to have opened a can of worms there! It's particularly annoying as i usually get my intimate shots from the photoshoot. What will happen is that having posed for the tog and being kept away from family and friends they will not be as keen to re-create some of it for me.

Also with my last conversation with the bride she asked if i would position myself at the front on the bride's side as the photographer has requested they go on the groom's side! I told her no as that is my preferred side as well - we'll just have to buddy up - it's this saturday and i'm not looking forward to it

Steve Burkett · June 7th, 2016, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

Not sure if you watched Ray Romans workshop, he also considers the speeches his domain, he sets the lights and the mood and even supplies his own mike and decides where it's going to be placed. I"m sure he never would have gotten where he is today if a photog would tell him what to do, he also need that time during a photoshoot to get his beautyshots and I"m sure he works together with the photog to achieve that.

I think if a couple would just buy what a photog tells them they most likely don't respect your work as much but if they have to pay 10K for a Ray Roman video and they want their film to look exactly like the examples they have seen you can be sure they will not accept any private time with a photog if that would mean Ray loosing some important time/shots.

Should you care? I think if you value your work and reputation, you probably will, if you are in it for the money and just want to move on to the next assignment asap, you probably would care a bit less. If caring means having a ego, then I"m guilty.

And if I was charging 10K, I would think and demand differently. I work hard and protect the integrity to my work as much as I can and no I don't just bow down to the Photographer. However I do pick my fights and some are not worth fighting. If I have the couples support, then yes. However if the couple don't care enough about video then whilst I'll try to fight my corner a little, in the end I'll take the money and write it off as just 1 of those Weddings. I still work hard on the day; you can care without letting ego get in the way.

Its a Photo Session at the end of the day; clues in the name that the Photographer does call the shots. I don't see the word video or photo in Speeches, Ceremony or any other part of the day, so I would expect more freedom.

Noa Put · June 7th, 2016, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Rush

Well i seemed to have opened a can of worms there!

It's not a can of worms, just some polite discussion and some strong opinions :)

Quote:

Also with my last conversation with the bride she asked if i would position myself at the front on the bride's side as the photographer has requested they go on the groom's side! I told her no

I"m sorry, you have to listen to the photog :) And why would you care when the bride seems to be happy with that? At least when I follow some of the logic here we should just bend over forward just to please a egocentric photographer. Like Steve said, as long as you are paid it's ok, no?

Steve Burkett · June 7th, 2016, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Rush

Well i seemed to have opened a can of worms there! It's particularly annoying as i usually get my intimate shots from the photoshoot. What will happen is that having posed for the tog and being kept away from family and friends they will not be as keen to re-create some of it for me.

Also with my last conversation with the bride she asked if i would position myself at the front on the bride's side as the photographer has requested they go on the groom's side! I told her no as that is my preferred side as well - we'll just have to buddy up - it's this saturday and i'm not looking forward to it

I grab intimate moments more on the go rather than 1 session. So after the Ceremony, I'll ask the couple to stop and have a kiss. Then when they're in the car either before leaving or when they arrive, whichever is best, I'll ask that they to raise their glasses of bubbly to each other and have a kiss. Another thing I try is that I suggest the couple have some alone time whilst I film them from a distance using a long lens. I got that a few weeks back when the couple were sitting alone for a quiet moment. Worked miles better than the staged stuff with the Photographer as its more natural and real.

Last 3 Weddings I've been on the Bride side. It's annoying but in cramped places I'd rather have the freedom to work than fight for my shots with a Photographer.

Noa Put · June 7th, 2016, 11:08 AM

Quote:

I'd rather have the freedom to work than fight for my shots with a Photographer.

But a photog moves around, they rarely stay in one position so why does he demand a position? I always tell the photogs they can move in front of my camera's when they want to take a picture but they need to assure not to continue blocking a unmanned camera when they are not shooting, if it's a manned handheld camera I can shoot around them if necessary.

A few years back I had a photog demanding a spot at the legal part of the wedding (over here that's separate from the ceremony) and she said just after we had entered the room, "this is my spot, you can stand over there", only from "there" I had to shoot against windows where the sun came in so I said "no, I will stay here but I"ll shoot around you if you need to stand in the same position", instead of working together with me she started an argument just when all guests where coming inside the room which I found very unprofessional but I didn't move, couldn't care less.

Steve Burkett · June 7th, 2016, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

I"m sorry, you have to listen to the photog :) And why would you care when the bride seems to be happy with that? At least when I follow some of the logic here we should just bend over forward just to please a egocentric photographer. Like Steve said, as long as you are paid it's ok, no?

Its not bending over backwards, its choosing your fights. All our work is compromise is one shape or form. Never enough time when you need it. I'll fight my corner when I feel its right and not just to satisfy my ego. I care about my work but I also care the couple have a great day without squabbling Professionals fighting for a few yards of space for the best shot.

We are being paid for our work and being paid means cooperating with others. Its annoying when the Photographer has been given greater priority but on such days where that has been made clear, I make my case and if this is refused, then I still do my best to deliver my work to the best of my ability. Which is about all that can be expected of me. What's the alternative. How far do you go to fight your corner? You think having a go at the Photographer or making silly demands yourself will make the day go any better. Do you think the couple will thank you for it. Sometimes you have to lose a few fights to win others.

Steve Burkett · June 7th, 2016, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

But a photog moves around, they rarely stay in one position

Its true in some of my Weddings the Photographer does move about. However in others they stay put, especially if there's 2 of them. Some of our Civil and Church Ceremonies are very restrictive in where you can stand and there's little room to move. Others you are told not to move. When they do, I find I can position myself easily on the Groom's side.

Noa Put · June 7th, 2016, 11:22 AM

When I start in the morning I immediately show the photog I care about his work, I get out of a room when I"m not shooting so I don't get into his pictures, I check for mirror reflection's that I don't see him while he is shooting because I know I will be in the picture as well and I tell them they can just tell me to go out of the way if needed. You would be surprised how much that helps to create a good cooperation. I even have carried such a flash umbrella during a photoshoot or help them out whenever I"m not shooting, those little gestures I get in return very quickly and they watch out for my camera's as well. Only once in a while I have to deal with *ssholes that have a bigger ego then the size of the room they are in, if I see their presence has a negative effect on my work I will tell them, I won't bend over forward just to keep the peace. I have not yet met a photographer that continued to make a scene, that one woman I referred to just shut up once the legal part started and because I did make sure she could stand in "her spot" no harm was done, she was however very unfriendly to me the rest of the day but who cares. At a certain point you need to take a stand, but you should also consider the other person whenever you can.

Steve Burkett · June 7th, 2016, 11:29 AM

Don't get me wrong Noa, I agree with what you say on that last message. There's a difference between issues on the day and something agreed in advance. If I have no instructions prior to the day to defer to the Photographer, then its fair game. In the case of the female Photographer, arguing in front of the guests was very unprofessional and I would have reminded her of this. I've had some unfriendly Photographers myself mainly because I've stuck to my guns.

However what I'm referring to is any agreements made prior to the day and made with the couple's backing. If the couple ask me to defer to the Photographer then as far as I'm concerned my hands are tied. I'll make my case and then just do the work.

Noa Put · June 7th, 2016, 11:43 AM

I know what you mean and I can understand Peter's frustration especially now there is a second demand about a position at a ceremony. The photog is using the bride to get what he wants without even considering the needs of a videographer, it's also clear the bride just complies to whatever the photog is asking because she values his work much more then Peter's. If a priest would ask me to stay out a certain zone I would respect it without much questioning because I"m shooting on his grounds, the photog however doesn't own any space at a wedding. I think if I was in Peter's shoes it would be a very difficult case as they always say to not bite the hand that feeds you but I would make it clear to my client, and probably exaggerate a lot, that this will have a negative impact on the quality of her film and that this will be no reason to ask for a refund, and have her sign a document that she agrees with this. Eventually there would be no other choice then to please the client but I highly doubt she would agree to that, unless she thinks so little of your work that she doesn't care, so why would I. These are the type of clients that are best forgotten quickly.

Pete Cofrancesco · June 7th, 2016, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett

To be honest I get some requests from couples asking I not film their photo shoot and focus on the guests and I can see their point. It can be frustrating filming the couples photo shoot with the whole exercise designed for great photos and not necessarily great video. I usually grab some sweeping shots of the couple and a few intimate kisses, but rarely stay for all of it. Depends on the shoot really; some are more lively and offer more for video.

In your case Peter, I'd just arrange some time with the couple myself, though see you've agreed 15 mins but are not optimistic. Speaking to some Photographers they have had bad experiences with Videographers getting in the way of the photo shoot, and whilst they can get in the way of us, it is primarily a photo shoot we're getting footage of, not vice versa. So I can see some preferring to avoid the inconvenience; still I think the message was a little hostile and not a good basis for great Photographer/Videographer cooperation on the day.

I don't think the couple photo shoot is a large part of the day and as I've not filmed it on a number of occasions, I can't say its loss has damaged the video in such cases.

I'm in agreement with Steve.

One of my weddings last year I covered the guests party while I sent my 2nd shooter to do the photoshoot with a steady cam. When I reviewed the footage I could see certain points where he was getting in the way swooping into a couple of feet in front of the B&G. Part of doing a wedding is knowing where to pick your points and when to lay back once you get your shots. In my final edit I have 20 seconds tops of the photoshoot.

The photoshoot is nice to have as b roll but you should do ok without it.

I can't say why they don't want you there. Could be that they make a montage like movie or have had bad experiences with videographers getting in the way.

Noa Put · June 7th, 2016, 02:10 PM

Quote:

When I reviewed the footage I could see certain points where he was getting in the way swooping into a couple of feet in front of the B&G

He could only get in the way if he doesn't discuss his shots with the photographers which is often a reason why photogs hate videographers. Whether you find a photoshoot important or not, it's up to each individual videographer to decide what matters because everyone has a different style, for some the photoshoot might be a important part of getting some eye candy shots or maybe steadycam shots that matter for the trailer. It's not up to the photog to decide if you will be able to get these shots and as long as you are professional about it and talk to eachother there is absolutely no reason why both the photog and videographer cannot work together during a shoot.

Dave Blackhurst · June 7th, 2016, 02:11 PM

I think Steve is in the right mindset... pick your battles, let the bride know if you foresee an issue, and if she is OK with it, let it go. If there is something specific where you'll want to "direct" without interruption, then make arrangements for it in advance.

Peter could probably "shoot back" a snarky email that he'll get some great footage of the guests that the couple will enjoy, since they are off with the 'tog and doing yet another boring predictable photo shoot you've seen many times.... thank the guy for freeing you up to get some great easy to shoot "friends and family" footage!

Unfortunately the tone of the email is rather snooty, I've run into a few 'tog's that are "that way". thinking that somehow they invented posing, framing and "glamour shots", and don't want any encroachment on their creativity.... sometimes they actually are that good, but more often it's just another pedestrian photo shoot....

Perhaps part of this is that the photographer feels that they can get more "intimate" shots if it's JUST the B&G (not the entire bridal party). Sometimes it IS easier to have a calm, quiet photo shoot than a 3 ring circus.... depends some on the personalities and rapport... as long as that time is short, I can see where it could be more comfortable for the B&G, and easier on the 'tog... it certainly could have been put more tactfully, if that was the case...

June 7th, 2016, 09:57 AM	#17
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: Harsh? Not sure if you watched Ray Romans workshop, he also considers the speeches his domain, he sets the lights and the mood and even supplies his own mike and decides where it's going to be placed. I"m sure he never would have gotten where he is today if a photog would tell him what to do, he also need that time during a photoshoot to get his beautyshots and I"m sure he works together with the photog to achieve that. I think if a couple would just buy what a photog tells them they most likely don't respect your work as much but if they have to pay 10K for a Ray Roman video and they want their film to look exactly like the examples they have seen you can be sure they will not accept any private time with a photog if that would mean Ray loosing some important time/shots. Should you care? I think if you value your work and reputation, you probably will, if you are in it for the money and just want to move on to the next assignment asap, you probably would care a bit less. If caring means having a ego, then I"m guilty.

June 7th, 2016, 10:41 AM	#18
Peter Rush Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: UK/Yorkshire Posts: 2,069	Re: Harsh? Well i seemed to have opened a can of worms there! It's particularly annoying as i usually get my intimate shots from the photoshoot. What will happen is that having posed for the tog and being kept away from family and friends they will not be as keen to re-create some of it for me. Also with my last conversation with the bride she asked if i would position myself at the front on the bride's side as the photographer has requested they go on the groom's side! I told her no as that is my preferred side as well - we'll just have to buddy up - it's this saturday and i'm not looking forward to it

June 7th, 2016, 11:22 AM	#25
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: Harsh? When I start in the morning I immediately show the photog I care about his work, I get out of a room when I"m not shooting so I don't get into his pictures, I check for mirror reflection's that I don't see him while he is shooting because I know I will be in the picture as well and I tell them they can just tell me to go out of the way if needed. You would be surprised how much that helps to create a good cooperation. I even have carried such a flash umbrella during a photoshoot or help them out whenever I"m not shooting, those little gestures I get in return very quickly and they watch out for my camera's as well. Only once in a while I have to deal with *ssholes that have a bigger ego then the size of the room they are in, if I see their presence has a negative effect on my work I will tell them, I won't bend over forward just to keep the peace. I have not yet met a photographer that continued to make a scene, that one woman I referred to just shut up once the legal part started and because I did make sure she could stand in "her spot" no harm was done, she was however very unfriendly to me the rest of the day but who cares. At a certain point you need to take a stand, but you should also consider the other person whenever you can.

June 7th, 2016, 11:29 AM	#26
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: Harsh? Don't get me wrong Noa, I agree with what you say on that last message. There's a difference between issues on the day and something agreed in advance. If I have no instructions prior to the day to defer to the Photographer, then its fair game. In the case of the female Photographer, arguing in front of the guests was very unprofessional and I would have reminded her of this. I've had some unfriendly Photographers myself mainly because I've stuck to my guns. However what I'm referring to is any agreements made prior to the day and made with the couple's backing. If the couple ask me to defer to the Photographer then as far as I'm concerned my hands are tied. I'll make my case and then just do the work.

June 7th, 2016, 11:43 AM	#27
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: Harsh? I know what you mean and I can understand Peter's frustration especially now there is a second demand about a position at a ceremony. The photog is using the bride to get what he wants without even considering the needs of a videographer, it's also clear the bride just complies to whatever the photog is asking because she values his work much more then Peter's. If a priest would ask me to stay out a certain zone I would respect it without much questioning because I"m shooting on his grounds, the photog however doesn't own any space at a wedding. I think if I was in Peter's shoes it would be a very difficult case as they always say to not bite the hand that feeds you but I would make it clear to my client, and probably exaggerate a lot, that this will have a negative impact on the quality of her film and that this will be no reason to ask for a refund, and have her sign a document that she agrees with this. Eventually there would be no other choice then to please the client but I highly doubt she would agree to that, unless she thinks so little of your work that she doesn't care, so why would I. These are the type of clients that are best forgotten quickly.

June 7th, 2016, 02:11 PM	#30
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Harsh? I think Steve is in the right mindset... pick your battles, let the bride know if you foresee an issue, and if she is OK with it, let it go. If there is something specific where you'll want to "direct" without interruption, then make arrangements for it in advance. Peter could probably "shoot back" a snarky email that he'll get some great footage of the guests that the couple will enjoy, since they are off with the 'tog and doing yet another boring predictable photo shoot you've seen many times.... thank the guy for freeing you up to get some great easy to shoot "friends and family" footage! Unfortunately the tone of the email is rather snooty, I've run into a few 'tog's that are "that way". thinking that somehow they invented posing, framing and "glamour shots", and don't want any encroachment on their creativity.... sometimes they actually are that good, but more often it's just another pedestrian photo shoot.... Perhaps part of this is that the photographer feels that they can get more "intimate" shots if it's JUST the B&G (not the entire bridal party). Sometimes it IS easier to have a calm, quiet photo shoot than a 3 ring circus.... depends some on the personalities and rapport... as long as that time is short, I can see where it could be more comfortable for the B&G, and easier on the 'tog... it certainly could have been put more tactfully, if that was the case...