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Old March 30th, 2017, 03:14 AM   #31
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Re: What no Photographer!

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
I"m actually surprised that photography in the UK is so undervalued, for videography though it's easy to find enough companies in the UK charging between 1700 and 2500 pound and there are several known videographers in the UK that have made a name for themselves worldwide. In Belgium it's just the other way round, good photographers easily can charge more then 2000 euro for a full day without album while video is generally regarded as less important.
What I am surprised about is that as someone who I have had a great deal of respect for, you have decided to track down my pricing, decide off your own back that I am charging too little without knowing the facts, then using that information without any discussion with me, as an illustration to other members that it is easy to get work by not charging as much as yourself, and suggesting that what I offer is therefore probably inferior to what others charging more are offering.

I am completely up front with my pricing with prospective clients, but don't expect and haven't previously seen other member's pricing discussed and criticised on this forum in such a way. Perhaps to balance the point Noa you are now going to be equally open about your own pricing and service. WHAT DO YOU CHARGE?

Roger
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Old March 30th, 2017, 04:51 AM   #32
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Re: What no Photographer!

It was my impression that the popularity of video/photo packages when you do them solo by utilizing 4K framegrabs are for a major part because they are much cheaper then to have a dedicated photographer and videographer. I already knew your website from much longer ago and it's not like I"m breaking into your house, your pricing is freely available for everyone to see so what's the big deal? I didn't place a link to your website nor mentioned your prices initially until Chris responded where I indeed mentioned one price to make my point, so what? I charge 1850 euro for video only, that's also for every one to see and I"m still cheaper then most good photographers I work with who charge between 2000 and 2500 without album for a full day coverage.

So again, the point I was trying to make is that if a photo/video combo package is so popular when you do this solo is mainly because it's cheap, or much cheaper then having a dedicated videographer and photographer, to me this means you specifically cater to budget brides, there is nothing wrong with that but I find it worth mentioning that this is not necessarily a general trend but more linked to budget. Couples don't pick this option out of convenience like Chris said, they know very well that having only one person doing two things simultaneously means that you have to compromise somewhere but they are ok with that, they save some money, you gain some money so it's a win-win situation but it's only a trend with couples that have small budgets, ones who have the cash would never opt for something like this if they feel compromises have to be made.

I also was responding to something you said so it was not like I picked you out randomly to prove my point, I didn't but could have checked others who apply the same strategy and I"m pretty sure I will come to the same conclusion.

Last edited by Noa Put; March 30th, 2017 at 05:54 AM.
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Old March 30th, 2017, 08:37 AM   #33
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Re: What no Photographer!

Oddly enough, the first couple that settled for my stills add on instead of having a Photographer, actually booked my top package plus extras, paying a final price of 1225. For that money, they could have found a cheap Photographer and a cheap Videographer (the Photographer I worked with on the 11th charged 550 and was a last minute replacement for one who charged 350, so quite possible to source). So whilst budget is a factor in the couple's choice in these matters, I don't think it's quite as simplistic as that.

There are also companies that handle both Photos and Video and whilst not solo operators, are still thriving and charging higher prices too as they typically send out 2-4 people per Wedding. Whilst I don't think there's a new trend for combined Photography/Videography services, there is certainly a clear demand for it and one that caters for all budgets, just as there are for companies dedicated to a single service.

Couples choosing a combined service will just as likely choose out of convenience with dealing with 1 company than out of budget. Or because they like the work they do. The fact that Roger offers a Full Length video would carry more favour than how much he charges, simply because so many companies forego this video in favour of the shorter videos.

Another factor is that some couples may not highly value Video or even Photos enough to pay a small fortune for it. I have been on many high budget Weddings where there has been plenty of money, just not for my video service and my cheap package has been booked. On the other hand I have been booked for some very low budget Weddings, where my top package has been booked and the Photographer has been sidelined. How does this factor into things?
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Old March 30th, 2017, 09:09 AM   #34
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Re: What no Photographer!

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
It was my impression that the popularity of video/photo packages when you do them solo by utilizing 4K framegrabs are for a major part because they are much cheaper then to have a dedicated photographer and videographed
.
The thing is I am not doing a solo video and photo package by utilising 4K frame grabs. As I have been to great pains to point out, I am doing photographs with a DSLR and various lenses.

Some people will book us because we are cheaper than some other companies, but there are plenty of companies that are a lot cheaper than us. It is also a complete falacy and slightly insulting to say that those with larger budgets would never choose us because they would be compromising on quality. What do you base that assumption on? You have never seen our work or have any idea why our clients book us. Maybe you base that judgement on what you would be able to achieve yourself, rather than having any particular criticism of anything we do, making judgement on what you perceive as cheapness.

The last wedding we filmed in Cheshire last week was for the daughter of a well known personality. The venue was a very expensive and prestigious stately home, there were 200 guests and the budget was big. The bride had seen us at a wedding fair where there were a number of photography and video suppliers, and loved our video and photography work. The cost was no consideration at all so she booked us after comparing our work with many others and liked both our work and us. She did remark that she would have been prepared to pay more for our services and felt that we offered a lot more quality than a number of companies charging many times more.

The wedding the week before that was in Coventry Guildhall and a prestigious hotel for the reception. They had a huge budget for the wedding including outfits for 12 bridesmaids but had already booked a photographer who charged half our photography only package. They felt that video was more important and had chosen us because we were the only ones offering exactly what they wanted, with price being secondary.

We also had a wedding 3 days ago where Claire filmed the video only, and the photographer that had been booked charged 250 for all day including 2 assistants. The wedding was on a low budget, but they had turned down a 300 videographer because they said "Our video was in a different league and totally professional".

You can draw whatever conclusions you like, but please stop dismissing our work as inferior or compramised because of your opinion on our pricing.

Roger
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Old March 30th, 2017, 09:19 AM   #35
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Re: What no Photographer!

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Originally Posted by Steve Burkett View Post
Oddly enough, the first couple that settled for my stills add on instead of having a Photographer, actually booked my top package plus extras, paying a final price of 1225. For that money, they could have found a cheap Photographer and a cheap Videographer (the Photographer I worked with on the 11th charged 550 and was a last minute replacement for one who charged 350, so quite possible to source). So whilst budget is a factor in the couple's choice in these matters, I don't think it's quite as simplistic as that.

There are also companies that handle both Photos and Video and whilst not solo operators, are still thriving and charging higher prices too as they typically send out 2-4 people per Wedding. Whilst I don't think there's a new trend for combined Photography/Videography services, there is certainly a clear demand for it and one that caters for all budgets, just as there are for companies dedicated to a single service.

Couples choosing a combined service will just as likely choose out of convenience with dealing with 1 company than out of budget. Or because they like the work they do. The fact that Roger offers a Full Length video would carry more favour than how much he charges, simply because so many companies forego this video in favour of the shorter videos.

Another factor is that some couples may not highly value Video or even Photos enough to pay a small fortune for it. I have been on many high budget Weddings where there has been plenty of money, just not for my video service and my cheap package has been booked. On the other hand I have been booked for some very low budget Weddings, where my top package has been booked and the Photographer has been sidelined. How does this factor into things?
A good post Steve and one that I completely agree with. Most of the combined package weddings that we do, have liess to do with budget and everything to do with convenience, getting on with the people and a documentary length video. Certainly budget does sometimes come into it with some couples, particularly for weddings local to us, as South Lincolnshire is one of the poorer regions of the U.K.

Roger
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Old March 30th, 2017, 09:21 AM   #36
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Re: What no Photographer!

Thank you Chris! :)

It seems that for convenience some couples would go for a combo package so they could deal with one company if they wanted both services and possible idea of saving money.

I think photography is usually higher on the list of priorities than video so offering it would increase the number of potential brides. But then some brides will just want to hire you for photos.

What I've seen where I live regarding combo packages is usually photographers trying to add video and while they may do great photos, the video is usually quite lacking.

What has kept me from adding photography to my wedding services is the lack of help. My people are good enough for B or C cam (video) under my supervision, but I don't have a person good enough to be a main photog or main video person. I do not consider myself a good photog by my standards, but neither are many of the photogs I have worked with through the years.
So I could do as good as many of them but then I need a video person to take my place, which I don't have.
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Old March 30th, 2017, 09:30 AM   #37
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Re: What no Photographer!

Hi David

Totally agree! In fact our wedding next Saturday is two photographers and stills from bridal prep to end of first dance. The only video they want is the ceremony which we are doing too but the bulk is stills. The bride wanted video for the ceremony only but also wanted photos so hiring two vendors would have cost her a lot more because ceremony only packages still require the same travel/set up even though it's a 30 minute shoot. She booked us not on price at all but purely on convenience as we could easily do both services.

I do the main photography with my wife as the second shooter except for the actual ceremony where she becomes the first shooter, I do the video and if I can I will zap a few extra stills

Works very well and you can offer either video, stills or both
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Old March 30th, 2017, 09:31 AM   #38
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Re: What no Photographer!

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Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel View Post
You can draw whatever conclusions you like, but please stop dismissing our work as inferior or compramised because of your opinion on our pricing.
Never said your work is inferior but a compromise it is when you do 2 different jobs by yourself at the same time.
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Old March 30th, 2017, 11:24 AM   #39
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Re: What no Photographer!

Chris, sounds like you have a good system figured out.
Thanks again for the help!

Can the Panasonic FZ2500 take stills while it is recording video at the same time?

How long does the battery last if I just mounted it and let it continuously record 4K video for the entire ceremony?

One thing I like about doing photos and video is it's all your team, so you aren't having to dance around the other photogs. You can work together to tag team stuff like a system. Plus as mentioned above it is nice to have both photos and video for case artwork, missed shots, marketing stills and other benefits where having shot both stills and video comes in handy for your company.

I've had brides call me later to provide stills that their photog missed.
And one time I traded a couple stills for a photo that I missed when I was tearing down, because the couple did something I didn't know would happen even though I had specifically asked them ahead of time and they said No :-/
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Old March 30th, 2017, 12:20 PM   #40
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Re: What no Photographer!

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One thing I like about doing photos and video is it's all your team, so you aren't having to dance around the other photogs. You can work together to tag team stuff like a system. Plus as mentioned above it is nice to have both photos and video for case artwork, missed shots, marketing stills and other benefits where having shot both stills and video comes in handy for your company.

I've had brides call me later to provide stills that their photog missed.
And one time I traded a couple stills for a photo that I missed when I was tearing down, because the couple did something I didn't know would happen even though I had specifically asked them ahead of time and they said No :-/
Hi David,

Not having to work around a photographer makes like so much easier. If we only have one wedding on, I work with my wife and we can both take video and photographs. So brides preps can be covered by my wife while I am setting up cameras for the ceremony or taking shots of the guys if they want it. She will also shoot the video during the group photos and arrange the dress, bouquets etc.

We are also both capable of working on the combined package solo, but not to be recommended unless you are very experienced at both and have a fast setup and breakdown system. Solo is a lot of pressure so we enjoy working together as it lightens the load. We also have total confidence in each other's video and photo work.

I had a conversation with a vicar today regarding a wedding in his church this coming Saturday. He is quite happy to have it videoed but is adamant that there will only be stills from the back and no flash. I will be at the front filming in 4K, so it will be another instance of stills from the video rather than none at all from the front and just Claire taking stills from the back.

Roger
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Old March 31st, 2017, 01:52 AM   #41
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Re: What no Photographer!

I'm a little surprised with the animosity against photographers, but then I'm sure there are plenty of them who wouldn't want to see a videographer either. The bottom line is, we're there to work for the client and that involves coexisting with the other vendors who are also working for the same client. It doesn't have to be some silly battle where you get your panties in a bunch.
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Old March 31st, 2017, 03:34 AM   #42
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Re: What no Photographer!

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I'm a little surprised with the animosity against photographers, but then I'm sure there are plenty of them who wouldn't want to see a videographer either. The bottom line is, we're there to work for the client and that involves coexisting with the other vendors who are also working for the same client. It doesn't have to be some silly battle where you get your panties in a bunch.
I don't have a problem working with other photographers with the odd exception. Most are professional and are aware that we need to be there aswell, but they need to set up poses and arrange things their own way, so we work around them. When we are doing the combined package either dual or solo, we are controlling the whole thing and find it so much more straight forward as we can work in the most convenient way to us.

Roger
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Old March 31st, 2017, 05:38 AM   #43
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Re: What no Photographer!

A basic problem with photographers is that most (all?) like to get in close while taking their photos. They also keep moving about looking for different angles & shots. This means that they are in the videographer's field of view far to often messing up the images. In general videographers are standing back & often static.

During the ceremony or speeches for example even though the participants are staying in one place the photographer(s) will be bobbing about all over the place looking for variety in their shots. It's very distracting & is one reason why celebrants get hacked off with photographers.

It will be rare that the videographer with their equipment appearing in shot is an issue for a photographer whereas the opposite is often true.
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Old March 31st, 2017, 06:13 AM   #44
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Re: What no Photographer!

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A basic problem with photographers is that most (all?) like to get in close while taking their photos. They also keep moving about looking for different angles & shots. This means that they are in the videographer's field of view far to often messing up the images. In general videographers are standing back & often static.

During the ceremony or speeches for example even though the participants are staying in one place the photographer(s) will be bobbing about all over the place looking for variety in their shots. It's very distracting & is one reason why celebrants get hacked off with photographers.

It will be rare that the videographer with their equipment appearing in shot is an issue for a photographer whereas the opposite is often true.
Too true Nigel! We always give priority to photographers due to the way photography needs to be done, but it is so much easier when we are doing both ourselves. My wife did video only and worked with a photographer and two assistants at her last wedding. Being a photographer herself, she was amazed that at all times, both assistants were taking the same shots as the main photographer, even during the preps, groups and romantics. What was the point of that unless it was a lack of confidence, it certainly made it challenging for her getting the video.

Roger
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Old March 31st, 2017, 06:29 AM   #45
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Re: What no Photographer!

I had two today that were a bit of a pain! We were just live streaming a ceremony and they were ducking and diving around the couple. Really, do you have to rush in front of the bridal party walking in and drop to your knees and take a low angle shot so the bride nearly trips over you. I don't mind them in the shot now and again but seriously when you leave plenty of space for them to walk behind your camera why do they purposely walk right in front and across it? Then again on yesterday's wedding the photographer was a real gem ... he worked with me not against me and I would gladly work with him any time.

To get to Roger's answer it's all to do with co-operation so at least if you supply the photographer you know you won't have any hassles. We don't have any photographer animosity we simple have animosity against arrogant "so called professionals" who treat the wedding as their own and not the brides. What they never realise is when they get into situations where it's all about their shot they not only spoil the video but also the view of all the guests too!
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