Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Can anyone provide some insight as to the legality of offering digital files/downloads/streaming in the US? I have been wanting to offer these to my dance recital studios for years, but haven't due to the complex and outdated laws.

My understanding is that the studios are responsible for the fees associated with the music copyrights (BMI, ASCAP & SESAC). Even those are limited as it appears that they are only good for one production per year???

As videographers, we have to deal with obtaining a video sync license (to sync our video with their copyrighted music) and a master use license, and possibly more ...

Has anyone consulted with an IP attorney to know exactly what's involved with protecting ourselves and our many customers who will ultimately share our (possibly illegal) video all over the internet?

The laws are definitely lagging behind the times, and I'm worried that this huge movement away from discs to online viewing/downloading/sharing may cause some serious damage to the small businesses that rely heavily on this income for survival.

Thoughts?

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Jane

Before you even consider obtaining a legal online download system in the USA, may I ask how legal are your DVD's you distribute. As far as I know with US copyright even producing DVD's isn't 100% legal as far as the copyright owners are concerned or can you get a sync licence that adequately covers you 100% when you sell DVD's ?

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

You are correct, Chris. As I mentioned, my understanding is videographers are supposed to get sync licenses, master use licenses, and possibly others, which is what I was looking to others to see if they've gone down the legal path. What I'm hearing from most is DVDs/Blu-rays was the lesser of two evils being, I guess, less risky; but, customers don't want that and computers don't come with DVD/Blu-ray players anymore. And, as we know, once it is shared online, it becomes much more risky for all involved. Since my last post, I came across an article about proposed legislation: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/b...-services.html, which refers to the Music Modernization Act of 2018: https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...t%22%5D%7D&r=3. Until then...???

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Thanks Jane

Yeah I would be pretty sure that people who shoot dance recitals and sell DVD's don't pay the required prices for using the music .. seriously, if they did it would be thousands and thousands more than they actually make from the performance. I don't really know what the answer is but I could never see videographers going thru channels to obtain clearance ..For the ones I used to do I simply filmed them and the studio did the distribution ..I figured that way if there was a copyright claim the studio would need to sort it out. I see a lot of videographers just charge the studio for their time and parents pay a fee added into their daughter's dance lessons ...then the DVD's are sorta free but I have no idea how legal that is?? The BIG problem is that if others are doing recitals they would be reluctant to say "This is how I get away with it" so you will never know.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

I used to do that, until a legal friend of mine pointed out that the law (at least in the UK) doesn't allow the responsibility to be passed on. Who does the deed is apparently how the law sees it. If you client says Can you add the ABBA songs to that video please, I'll take full responsibility and get the clearances, AND they put it in writing - if they don't, then you did the deed, and you are the one who is liable. I'm pretty sure this is common in most legals systems. After all, the hit-man does the murder, and the time, no matter who paid them.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Paul

I see your point! However there is still no easy solution in most countries ! We now have a licence in Australia that allows you to put videos online as long as they have a password. However the moment you host it on any non Australian site you are back to square one as YouTube works on USA law so even if you could find a server locally It will more than likely cost an arm and a leg for decent bandwidth.

I wonder what would happen if you set up your own server as Paul Mailath hinted on, is that technically "broadcasting" ?? A private server with nothing but video files and never advertised or promoted with password protect isn't physically broadcasting or is it?? I wonder, even if that is considered broadcasting, they would still have a tough time finding your files?

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Those bit rates are ridiculously high. Netflix & Amazon stream 4K video at 15-20mbps but for 1080p it’s no more than 5mbps while 720p would be 1.5-3mbps.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

No - I'd say it's not broadcasting, but here, they add in extra terms to make sure it's a catchall. However wee have a version for online downloads that's quite cheap and just has a £12,500 annual income from downloads as a rule. Is there nothing like this available your side of the water?

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Paul

We DO have an online option now but the video does need to be password protected BUT (and that's the BIG BUT) it only covers video hosted on an Australian server so you cannot pay for your licence and set up , say, a vimeo account and password because they will ping you as they recognise USA law. I dunno about the UK but here hosting is pricey and the word bandwidth causes jitters. I host my websites on an LA server (powweb) for something like $25 a quarter and that gives me unlimited files, unlimited space and unlimited bandwidth. I think the option here was designed to cater for the wedding videographer who wants an online sample of a few minutes rather than a dance recital producer that has 4 hours of a performance with hundreds of viewers.

Nigel?? We do regular livestream weddings each week and those are sent to the stream server at 2mbps and the quality looks pretty darn good at 2mbps .. Never had a complaint from brides .. in fact I shoot a backup to card at the same time at Panasonic's 28mbps but only render that out at no more than 8 mbps as an MP4 file ..I could probably get away with 4mbps for the backup

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Just found this interesting thread as I'm looking at the same options this year for my dance work. Been happily distributing via DVD however there have been a few dance studios ask about a download or USB option.

I am heading towards the USB option as that seems a lot easier route, albeit more expensive. As you say Chris, our AMCOS/APRA licences do not cover online distribution via hosting outside of Australia. I do not believe my customers are also in the position to be downloading 8GB files on their home internet NBN speeds. Some may, but I'm expecting I will get quite a few emails from unhappy parents unable to download the huge HD files of a 2.5 hour long concert. I expect that they would then ask for it on USB, defeating the purpose!

This leaves me with USB. I've been playing around with filesizes and codecs to see what is the most compatible. On my 8 yr old Sony LCD Smart TV, It refuses to play a video larger than around 4GB even though the USB is formatted for ExFat. This means I'll probably have to separate the files into Act 1 and Act 2 etc and keep the bitrate low enough in order to keep it around the 4GB mark. I've played around and 5mbps 1080p is actually pretty decent and keeps a roughly 1:45hr show to around 4.2GB. Splitting the acts up I could bump it to 10mbps and I think larger than that is overkill and would run into more compatibility issues.

Cost is a huge factor and would probably have to wear the cost of the USB as I can't see parents paying any more than they already are for DVDs. I've pushed Blu-Rays for a few years at an extra $5 but there have only been a couple of the larger dance studios that have bothered to plug it. Most of them are happy with DVDs. At this stage I can't see any of my studios going all USB instead of DVD, so I would still have to create the menus and author the DVDs along with the case artwork. So I'm not saving any time there.

If I do go down the USB route, I would have to change to a flat rate for every family. The only good thing about DVDs going by the wayside is I think a lot of people have forgotten how to pirate and/or don't own DVD drives on their computers. There's no way I'm going to do individual sales on USBs.

Has anyone actually taken this step and provide feedback from last year's run of dance concerts? I'd be interested to see how you got on.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Tim

My mate Alan lives on the Gold Coast and a few years ago he worked for a guy in Queensland doing recitals and he told me they produce the USB drives on the night for parents ... each dance section is sent to a computer in realtime and by the time interval has arrived those parents can collect their USB's and pay for them before the next session ...it seemed to work OK and is great for people actually at the performance ...I guess the USB can also be posted the next day to people that cannot attend too ...the nice thing about USB is that you can duplicate them 10 at a time and if you have spares you can simply delete the files and use them again. Would that work for you?? I find that DVD's are getting harder to find !!

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Not trying to be a downer, but since you mentioned pirating, wouldn't pirating/duplicating USBs be easier than DVDs? I mean, DVDs were quite simple to those who put some effort into learning and had a capable PC, but copying a USB I think everyone on the planet can do. (Unless you use some anti copying code/software)

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

That's a whole different ball game. I'd require staff to man cameras, direct and multi-switch as well as produce the USBs. Logistical nightmare, not to mention the quality of editing and mixing compared to having all the time in the world in post to fix anything up. This is something they do for Eisteddfods, as they're day long events and usually one fixed camera. They sell to parents a lot cheaper than shooting an end of year concert. I'm usually pretty quick at editing and getting my shows out to the studios. Usually it's the studios that go on holidays and need a break from preparing for the concerts and don't bother to check the master DVD where the hold-ups are with getting them to parents.

Yes, that's why I'd only do it if every parent paid a fee.

A while back I ended up getting my own DVD Duplicator to bring costs down, and when a parent came to me 2 months later and asked for a DVD I could run one off instead of getting a supplier to do 1 or 2 copies of a show. I would probably do the same for the USBs and buy a duplicator. I source all my materials online from wholesalers as you're getting higher quality discs compared to what you can buy locally (if you can find them instore).

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Thanks Tim

Both Alan and I do live streamed events with often just one camera and our server guys create a DVR directly from the live feed which can be downloaded too as long as they have the link. It's a neat solution for people wanting online and downloadable content and the DVR files are able to be edited too. However we tend to stay with weddings and funerals shot on a single camera/dolly setup. The whole idea was of course to be able where possible to eliminate hours of editing to make it cost effective so we can do a wedding ceremony (which takes 20 minutes) and be home within the hour done and dusted!

Your current method is probably the best for what you do! The only thing that bugged me was I could get DVD disks for 30 cents a pop ..a tiny bit more for a case and printing but certainly within a one dollar cost whilst now days you struggle to find a USB under 16GB capacity and those come out at $6 or $7 each which as you say, you have to bear the cost of!!!

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Why not just charge the extra $5 for the USB and be done with it? It's in the ball park of the cost of a good coffee, which the parents wouldn't bat an eyelid over. Plus ... they get to keep the super-handy USB! :-)

It may well be time for a price rise as it is, and this gives it some physical legitimacy.

Andrew

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Andrew .. I would add on to the price too but Tim sounded concerned about having to cover the extra cost of USB's
"Cost is a huge factor and would probably have to wear the cost of the USB as I can't see parents paying any more than they already are for DVDs."

Let's face it DVD's are on the way out ..and already I have clients saying "we don't have a DVD player" ..I dropped DVD's for weddings a while back but still get the odd person saying "Our parents only have a DVD player and cannot play a USB drive.

With the USB Tim, just split the files into each performance song and use intelligent naming so a TV will play them in sequence so : 0001Song1.mp4, then 0002Song2.mp4

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Thanks guys, I think I'll just increase the cost by $5 which would equal the same net profit if it costs me a couple of bucks for the DVD production

That sounds good in theory, but I don't have the patience to manually do IN and OUT points and then export each of them for 30+ dance items in a concert. Act 1 and Act 2 files will have to do!

Has anyone experienced file size or codec problems with playing on a TV?

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

In addition you can’t count how your tv or computer works that the clients will or that how they prefer to watch. Imagine the director or client wants to watch the show in it’s entirety and you’re sending them 40 individual files that don’t automatically play consecutively. Let alone all the time to individually in/out and name them.

I have many (most) clients who want a dvd, it’s not a matter of price that’s what they want.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Tim

So you don't do any editing and render out your footage apart from act1 or act2 ?? As long as you keep the files under 4GB then most devices will play it. With regards to bitrate we actually only live broadcast at 2.0mbps and clients are quite happy with that. We obviously also supply a USB and I do that at just 8mbps and it looks great even on a big screen TV. Just for interest, at the recitals we have done I have stopped and started the cameras after each dance. The idea here was to allow parents to be able to use the USB on the TV and actually skip down to their little angel's performance. If you shoot each performance as an individual file they are nice and small and it does give you the option to supply custom USB's A string of files on a USB played on a TV will play seamlessly anyway!

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Yes I fully edit all the shows. Multi-cam timeline in Premiere with 3-4 cameras, overdub the music, add in the tap mics and any other vocal performances, add audience applause when needed and remove all the gaps in between the dances :) Each DVD has full menus with chapter points for each dance, so although they are getting the whole show, they can go to a menu and select the dance they want to watch.

Editing and producing live isn't really my business model as I prefer to have a quality product a few weeks later.

Getting it down to under 4GB should be fine if I stick to the 5-10mbps limit and split the show up into each act. No need to go overboard with the bitrate when they're used to DVD quality.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Tim,

I have a very similar workflow to you, I also was looking at how to supply alternative formats affordably to DVDs. I also have another issue where many of my customers expect me to sell individually to each parent rather than one price for all.

I couldn't find anything out there that met the need, so decided to design something from scratch.

You can see a couple of examples published on https://view.creative-films.net under the examples heading.

The idea being we offer 3 options:

1. Public viewing - open link (so it can be shared to anyone that they want to see)
This option is not very common

2. Show code - the company hiring me pays a fixed price and then I give them a show code. they can then share the code, parents still have to register on my site and then they add the code to get the film added to their library. Each year they can simply add the next show to their existing library.

3. Purchase code - Each parent can purchase a code from my website and that gives them access to add to their library.

The key to this is that the shows can only be watched by streaming on our site. No option to download, no option to watch embedded on anything but my site.

There is still the potential that parents could make one purchase and share the login with others when using option 3, but I have yet to see this happen, and I also can see how many views are being made concurrently so if it happens I can at least investigate. But to date, no one has.

Also, option 2 is what I am promoting, which for one customer this year means we have published 21 shows for them and only offered distribution this way.

I have also given the option for a cheap DVD purchase also should it be needed, but just disc only, no complex menus, just simple and cheap to make and post should someone want the physical disc.



Has the option to add scenes as well. Would be interested in feedback on what people think, I am very happy with the product after using it for 6 months now, considering there really was nothing out there (not that I could find anyway) it is great to have a future model for delivering on a medium other than DVD, and great to be able to give nice HD.....

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Tim

A slightly different slant on the methodology here but what sort of costing are you looking at. You seem to have quite a complex edit process with 3 - 4 cameras and extra audio Do you cover your actual time involved for each recital and do you still make a good solid profit???

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Chris,
The smaller dance studios that run for no more than 90 minutes I'll only shoot with 2 cameras, won't worry about extra tap mics as there may only be 1 tap item and I walk away with minimum $1600, with around $100 of that going towards disc expenses and printing. Larger schools...well I'm not going to say, but it's very profitable :) I've been doing this for many years and am pretty quick at editing and usually only need to run through a dance one time multicam switching realtime in Premiere. A decent 2 hour show I could edit in 1 day from footage import to final DVD - that's not including duplication though.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Nice profit Tim !!

I see all these wedding videographers who boast that they spend at least a week full time creating an exquisite masterpiece for brides (one guy actually said it took him 2 days to perfect a 2 minute clip) Then they advertise a 12 hour wedding shoot with all the bells and whistles for $3000!! I often wonder if they ever calculate the actual cost and their hourly rate ...probably make less than a guy flipping burgers at Maccas!!!

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

This is an interesting thread, thanks for posting. I'm trying to focus more on dance recitals because there are so many dance studios out there. I currently have one client that is local and we charge a set price to the parents for each DVD set. I think the school has around 200-250 dancers and we sold 90 last year but then only 60 this year so our profits dropped significantly. I would like to come up with a different model for selling the DVDs and I would like to get some input about what might work. I think I read on this thread (or another similar one) that some videographers ask the studios to build the cost of the DVDs into the price they charge their clients (or just require that each client pay for a DVD). If anyone is currently doing this, how do you require the parents to buy a DVD? Do you have the dance studio write it into the contract and then send them an order form and hope they comply? Or do you just ask the studio to add the cost into the membership fee?

I'm speaking with the director of a brand new dance studio and she doesn't know how many dancers there will be so I don't have a way of knowing how much to charge to ensure we make enough money.

Also, if you have any other ideas as to how we can require each parent to buy a DVD please let me know because it's tough when you sell so many DVDs one year and then not nearly as many the following year.

Thank you for your help,

Mike

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hey guys,
I run pretty much the same model as Tim, multi cameras and audio, and about the same turn-around being about a day for a larger gig.
A couple of hrs for a 2 cam shoot, just J,K,L ing and chapters/transitions.
It all happens fast in concert season.

Ive just about got all the delivery methods being spoken about here happening across multiple schools.
We have the oldest (our original) model currently performing the best.
Copy protected DVDs sold to individual parents.
Order envelopes sent to school for hand out, picked up on concert night in a bundle. Lots of orders come in after we post a sample clip up to the schools Facebook page the next day.

Over the last few years we have some schools that pay a flat fee for a digital download (about $3500).
The school just adds the fees in per family so they aren't out of pocket. The Principals like this model but I get feedback from some parents (only some), that they would still prefer the DVD with Jacket and chapter list on the inlay, motion menus and credits etc. Nostalgia maybe....

We have a couple of schools that pay the flat fee for a set amount of DVDs.
More are enquiring about this. They then have the compulsory payment scheme so the school is not out of pocket.

Ive been pushing 1080p downloads for years as it crushes me to turn my HD Prores files into MPG2 files for DVD. Im kind of easing my push now. If 98% of the parents are happy with the DVDs then so be it.

The only thing I wont do is individual sales for USB.
I spoke to another videographer in my area last year who is now offering DVD and/ or USB because he wanted to keep up with the times. He then said the industry is dying and its time to get out because he cant make enough money on previously profitable jobs........

IMHO it comes down to this-

Be a producer AND a retailer and sell copy protected DVDs with jackets, menus etc.
They can hold it, look at it on the shelf and give a copy to Nanna.

Or,

Supply a service and let the Dance school be the retailer.
Just get paid to deliver the file and don't worry about who's receiving (and paying for) the end product.

Just my thoughts.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Gerald,

I'm speaking with four dance companies right now and I'm having trouble selling our services to them. In an ideal world, I would be able to tell them "we will film your dance recital, you don't have to pay anything, parents will just purchase DVDs from us directly and we will ship them to them without you getting involved". The problem with this is that we have done this in the past and one year we sold 90 DVDs which was great but the following year we only sold 60 so we made quite a bit less money. My goal is to shoot dance recitals for dance studios in other states (and also have others shooting for me) and if I have to send someone to another state but we only make $600 from DVD sales then I lose quite a bit of money.

Do you know of a way to bill parents directly and also ensure that you sell enough DVDs to make enough profit?

In my post above I believe I mentioned the idea of asking the studio owner to charge parents for the DVDs when they sign up their children. This would ensure that every parent pays for a DVD which would mean we would definitely make enough money since all parents would be required to purchase DVDs. The problem I'm running into is that this gives the studio owner more work to do, they have to keep track of the payments, and they also have to deal with the few parents that don't want to pay for DVDs.

So, is there a way to simply send online order forms to all the parents, take payments from them directly, but also not run the risk that only 20-30 parents will buy DVDs? If there isn't then what would you suggest doing?

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

It's always a gamble. I did a recital recently and figured I'd lucky to sell 20, but had some new kit to try out for the first time, so took a gamble and they bought 40? I've had 0 blu-ray requests and 0 USB delivery, and all delivered on good old DVD in SD. Crazy!

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Michael,

No, there isn't a way to make sure you sell enough - that's why I always got the studio to bring the orders in and tell them they need a minimum order number. BUT then you run the risk of the studio making a profit off of your product. One studio I had done work for were selling my $40 discs for $60! I understand that it takes them a bit of time to organise selling and collecting money, but not for more than $5 a DVD and making $2000 off of my work. I think this is also why some of the studios prefer to collect the orders themselves (not that they've ever said). I don't think some of them understand that the higher the price, the less orders we'll get. The parent doesn't know that they've marked the price up and blame us for the ridiculously high price!

I've also had horror stories of the studios spending my money they've collected and waiting months to recoup the loss and finally pay me - again the parents look at us for the blame of the DVDs taking so long to get out to them. The studio principal was cagy whenever the DVDs were mentioned. Thankfully some eagle-eyed parents tracked me down through an instagram tag of their school when I was filming on the night and were able to put the pressure on her.

In saying that, I'd only do direct orders with parents where I know the ballpark of orders I'll receive from the studio. After doing the same studio for a few years the parents get to know the quality they're getting.

I'm trying to approach the concert fee at the moment with a few of my schools and explaining to them it'll actually be cheaper for each student if it's just included and I'll still make the same amount of money or more.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Michael

I found that dance studios love the "we will shoot it for FREE" and no extra work for them regarding distribution and getting payment from parents. I have done this method halfway (so we shoot for free but send the ordered disks to the studio and they get the cash when the parents/kids come to their next session at the studio) The studio found this time consuming and ended up having to deposit cash into their bank account and then pay us in batches and it got very messy. Yes, their ideal is to give you permission to film the recital and the rest is your baby ..so that's the easiest sell. Parents that actually attend the concert can be given an order form either at the door as they come in but the parent that cannot make it are lost unless you give each dancer an order form ...the studio doesn't really want all this extra work unless they are going to make a bucket load of money!

I honestly think that your problem is purely a marketing one so you need to figure out how to get to parents without giving the studio tons of work!

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

I’ve experienced some of what you said. Bigger studios with a lot of orders want to sell to the parents or want me to pay them a 10% commission. I go along with it for a few reasons. First I net more even after paying a commission than retaining all the profits on a small studio. Second I don’t have to spend the time, money and headache of individually shipping each order. Finally, I find studios who have a vested interested ie making a profit will make it a point to sell as many dvds as possible. They will man a table at the show taking orders and collecting money or send out reminders via email or social media to the parents. I’d rather share a bigger pie...

All that being said they get a really good deal not only do they get a professional to film and produce a video of their production for free they also look to eat into the small profits we make. I filmed a theater camp of like a hundred kids and the parents had to pay $650 per student to be a part of it then pay for a ticket to the show and after all that they’re aren’t too keen on paying much for a video. They’re grossing $80k and I’m eaking out $500 from the parents. What can I say it’s a tough business. I’m often in the dark about the financials behind the scenes, we really seem to be at a disadvantage.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Hi Micheal,
Sorry, I don't have any way to invoice the parents and make them pay. The school needs to do that.
As mentioned above, my original schools were single order and each mailed out. It is a pain but we still are getting the biggest sales from those schools.

With new business and going out of area to get new business IMO you would have to be a wholesaler to the Principal of the school.
Give them copy protected DVDs with Jackets, printed discs etc with the school branding all over them but more importantly your branding as well.
I would make an agreement to capture and supply 50 DVDs for X amount.
If they want more they have to ask for more at, say, $50 each in lots of 5 minimum. (we always get another run of orders once they go out and they can't copy them easily).
The principal can mark them up if they want (some of ours mark up 20% ). Thats great, you will sell heaps more with the school pushing it for you.

Off topic a little, but how do you guys deal with the double ups?
I have a few Saturdays and Sundays in early December where Im doing 3 in a day which is fine if they work out neatly like 10.30am then 2pm then 7.30pm starts and the traveling works. But what about when you have two a 100km apart at the same time?
Do you hire contractors or let them go?

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Thanks for the replies. I just heard back from one person who said my prices were too high. Another one didn't respond to my follow up email. I think that by asking them to require that everyone buy a DVD might be a tough sell but I just hated the fact that for the company we're shooting for currently we sold 90 in 2018 and then 60 in 2019. If i'm traveling 5-6 hours to another state and I only sell 20-30 DVDs then I'm barely making a profit. I may stick with it and see if some school's are willing to add the cost of the DVDs to the fee they charge the parents. Also, if the cost is added into the registration fee then I can offer an online link as well which isn't any trouble for me but it's an added bonus for the clients.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

I'd suggest a minimum order number then to make sure you're covered. The way I've always done it is the school organises all the orders and collects money. They just have to make sure they meet the minimum number of orders. I know I'm getting at least $$$ for the show, any extra is a bonus. Unfortunately that's the industry with drop in numbers. I had quite a few drop in sales last year (student numbers were also downn, so it's not necessarily the DVDs...). I think it's just the last thing on a parent's mind after paying all year for school fees, concert tickets, costumes etc and then forking out for a DVD which they may watch only once.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Minimums are good in principle but difficult to enforce. Let’s say you have a 20 order minimum and you only get 17 are you really going to try to get the studio to ante up the money? Again let’s say you require 20 pre orders or you won’t film are you really going to pull out a week before? Think they’d want you back next year? If you don’t film there is no way you’ll be able to rebook that date on that short of notice. The best you can do is if the minimum isn’t met, you can’t film next year performance.

Another reason for lower sales is parents using their smart phone to record their kid. That’s hard to complete against since you have to film every one on stage.

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

I've always done minimum order amounts whereby the studio organises the orders. I've never had a problem. They know 6 months out how many students they have and how many they think will be needed based off previous years. There would have only been a handful of studios (generally first year studios) that don't know how many they can bring in and usually only have 20 or 30 students. In which case they generally get by with a parent videoing it until they have bigger numbers, or I make an arrangement where I just give them 1 USB with the edited concert and nothing fancy for a set fee.

I figure if the studio is 3 short of numbers, the extra margin they put on the DVDs covers themselves if they fall short anyway.

To be honest I don't see any other industry where someone can get a full on video production of their own business while not forking out a cent. You'd think they'd be ok with paying a couple hundred if they fall short, but nope!

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

Over the past decade I've tried taking orders/payment and mailing out the DVDs to the parents and I've tried having the studio take the orders and payment and then we deliver the DVDs to the studio/school them to distribute.
The latter is clearly the way I prefer.
One good client/studio sets up a table the night of event and takes orders. The DVDs are marked up $5 for them to pocket so they make about $500 so it's worth their effort. At their table they also sell shirts and whatever else they have.
About a week after the event the studio tells me the number of DVDs to make and I deliver them to the studio for payment and the studio gives them to the parents. It works out great. My contract is worded that the DVDs are produced for resell so the responsibility of tax is on them.

I've also had clients where they take the orders/payment but there is no markup and it didn't work out very well because there was no financial incentive for the studio.

If the studio owner does not prohibit audience photos and video during the event I'll see ~100 phone screens held up during the show and the orders will be few.

I agree we video companies are at a disadvantage because we can't shoot and edit the show in the best artistic way but rather showing everyone all the time. The parents only care about their own child and not the show usually. I make a cool intro video that is artistic though, showing tight shots so at least it starts off impressive and they can see what is possible.

If it's a first time client we set a minumum order and a price for each DVD beyond the minimum order.

We price the DVD according to the time and resources needed and also factor in the number expected t be sold. And as someone stated earlier in this thread it really is a great deal for the studio to have a video crew come with 2-5 cameras and mix the mics and music feed into a finished DVD with menu, full case with artwork and be out no expense themselves.

We've tried Blu-rays and USB drives and though I cringe crunching an HD and 4K source down to SD it just hasn't been worth it to offer all three. I hope to do more USB drives in the future.

While I very much enjoy making a professional keepsake for families I personally don't see this working out too much longer. While we have and can offer a product with production value way beyond what mom can do with her cell phone or dad with his camcorder - clean sound, multiple mics, good camera angles, etc...I think just a tight shaky closeup with lousy sound of their kid is what they want. Who cares about the other kids or the rest of the show. We just want to see Suzy. Why pay $20 or $40 for a DVD of the whole show when all we want is 7 minutes of just Suzy.


I have enough gear and just try to make sure competent crew are at each show so we get all the shows shot right. Then I post them all.
I personally go over the details with the owners and check out the rehearsals the best I can. This can be tough since virtually everyone has their recitals on the very same day and often the same time(s)! Rehearsals usually aren't at the same time so I personally go check them out and do some testing. Then I try to make sure my crew are prepped to do it right. I make checklists for them and put someone in charge.

This has worked fine until this year when my crew in charge for whatever reason didn't do what I told them and shot the main camera way too wide and way under exposed causing me enormous problems in post trying to fix it. So in the future I plan on having a backup main camera to try to avoid this from happening again. It is really frustrating to pay someone (well) for rehearsal, explain everything, and they still don't do what you showed and told them!

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

I find it difficult to find competent shooters. I’ve experienced the same thing over exposed, too wide, etc. I always shoot 2 cameras, the second acts a back up or a safety if they get out of the frame but most other shooters don’t own two cameras let alone matched. Most of my events don’t make enough to afford a second shooter or watching their rehearsal. If you know what you’re doing it not necessarily plus you’ve got the wide camera to go to in post if you get fooled.

As far as orders I’m unlucky most of my clients don’t want to have anything to do with it. For many the performance is the last time they’ll meet, the director rents studio space, parents don’t live near by or it’s a school production, director doesn’t want the hassle of distribution, or late orders any number of problems that come up.

To film enough events I also do plays and musicals. These by far are the most difficult to get enough orders. Usually It’s only 15-25 that’s roughly $400-600 gross to film and edit. I have to film 3-4 theater performances to equal one large dance studio.

The minimum orders I was talking about is when selling directly to the parents that the studio has to buy the short fall, which they can try to resell to make their money back. When filming non dance performances that would mean asking the director to eat the cost of the short fall... But like I said usually only reasonable recourse is to decline filming next year’s performances unless they agree to get parents to pre pay.

I find it’s a 3-4 day process if you have the energy to work continuously:
day 1 to film, day 2-3 to edit, encode, author, etc, day 4 produce, burn print, mail, upload, email and deposit checks

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

For me, the really small ones just don't bring in enough to pay for the amount of work and cost involved.
I'd love to have a bunch of good clients like the one I described but I don't.

I typically have an elevated camera angle that is responsible for keeping everyone in frame. I call this the main camera. This is at the rear and either in a booth, balcony or on a tall stand. Since this is a critical camera I often man this one. But if we have more than one show at the same time obviously I cannot be more than one place at a time.

I then have another camera up on the front row that gets a dramatically different perspective. Depending on the studio demands, this camera either gets medium and/or wide shots or a combination of tight, medium and wide. I mix this together with the main camera.

I then may have a catwalk camera or another angle off to the side manned or not depending on budget.
And also may have cameras rigged up above the stage for some cool views. These angles can't be used much and are a hassle to manage but I like them.

I also have a stage mic and have mics on each camera that I can use if necessary. And I tap into the sound system with an audio recorder.

All camera ops communicate on headsets.

I'm following this great thread hoping to maybe learn something to do better or different especially in the area of order taking and distribution :)

One thing I have been planning on doing is scaling down the operation to just one camera (main) and shooting in 4K and then crop zooming in for a tighter 2nd angle. This would allow me to do the event by myself and still have a 2 camera "look". The last 2 years I've been testing my new 4K cameras in preparation for this. Of course I mean one camera plus a backup right next to it just in case...

Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited
 

I've been advertising dance recital videography on Facebook (targeting the East Coast) and we've gotten a decent amount of inquiries but have not yet booked any. It's only been 3 weeks so hopefully over time we will book a few. I really like the idea of using Facebook ads to advertise all across the East Coast so I was wondering if anyone knows of other events that can be filmed at essentially no cost to the client (DVD purchases by parents). I've seen online that high school graduations could potentially work, does anyone have experience shooting these for free and making money only off the DVD purchases? Any other events where this could work?