working with lawyers

Mike Cook · December 30th, 2005, 08:43 AM

Well thank you folks for all the input. Very interesting.

After much thought, quite a few phone calls and a meeting this is my impression. First, the client needed some education in the ways of video. Once some things were explained to her, she understood and removed most of the offensive language. It was not a case of "trying to get away with something". Rather, it was simply not understanding the nature of live action video.

I agree with the post stating "you ought to be able to put away your day job for a while". She doesn't agree. Her take is that she is simply putting in writing all the things I state on my web page and the things we talked about. Her position is that this just makes it clear what both of us expect to do.

My first reaction to all this was to run like hell. She is, however, a pretty nice person in person. Upon further investigation it turns out she has been in the bridal party of two weddings that had vendors go bad. In one case the video guy.

Now before we get all defensive and say things like "you can't go around judging others that way" let's review this. Here is LA there are a HUGE number of jokers out there who buy a camera and nail up a shingle. The horror stories are endless and the wedding industry in general does a pretty poor job in self policing. So, with that kind of reputation I really can't fault her too much for the paranoia.

I am going to give it a run. I tend to trust my gut on people and I think she is straight up. I will post anything interesting that transpires.

Thanks again for the views, they helped make the decision.

Mike

Mike Teutsch · December 30th, 2005, 08:48 AM

Sounds like you have thought it out well. Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

Mike

Rick Steele · December 31st, 2005, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Cook

My first reaction to all this was to run like hell.

I still think you should trust this initial instinct and follow through with it but no matter...

Quote:

she is, however, a pretty nice person in person.

And I still think "her" contract indicates she's not willing to say the same about you. (Or to the extent it matters).

Good luck!

Douglas Villalba · December 31st, 2005, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Cook

Well thank you folks for all the input. Very interesting.

After much thought, quite a few phone calls and a meeting this is my impression. First, the client needed some education in the ways of video. Once some things were explained to her, she understood and removed most of the offensive language. It was not a case of "trying to get away with something". Rather, it was simply not understanding the nature of live action video.

I agree with the post stating "you ought to be able to put away your day job for a while". She doesn't agree. Her take is that she is simply putting in writing all the things I state on my web page and the things we talked about. Her position is that this just makes it clear what both of us expect to do.

My first reaction to all this was to run like hell. She is, however, a pretty nice person in person. Upon further investigation it turns out she has been in the bridal party of two weddings that had vendors go bad. In one case the video guy.

Now before we get all defensive and say things like "you can't go around judging others that way" let's review this. Here is LA there are a HUGE number of jokers out there who buy a camera and nail up a shingle. The horror stories are endless and the wedding industry in general does a pretty poor job in self policing. So, with that kind of reputation I really can't fault her too much for the paranoia.

I am going to give it a run. I tend to trust my gut on people and I think she is straight up. I will post anything interesting that transpires.

Thanks again for the views, they helped make the decision.

Mike

A high pesentage of my wedding clients are Lawyer and Judges. The only ones that try changing anything on contracts are the ones still in school or resently graduated.
I just tell them to trust me, that before they started going to school I was already doing this for many years.

Bob Costa · December 31st, 2005, 08:46 PM

Well, my contract basically reads that I will do my best, but if I miss shots or events for any reason at all, sorry about that. If you have this kind of clause in your contract (and you should), she should be smart enough to know that nothing else she adds really matters.

At the very least I would add enough to their bill to pay for a lawyer to review her changes. And I would probably add in enough to buy some lawsuit insurance, since it costs her NOTHING to go the court route if she feels slighted or thinks she looks fat. More likely I would just use my contract as-is, or write up in my own language anything that needs to be changed or added.

Mike Cook · January 1st, 2006, 09:54 AM

I don't think I will allow and "addendum" again. We made the mistake of opening the door on this by "having a look" at what she sent. From now on there will simply be no discussion about this sort of thing. Either you take us as we are or not. Nothing personal, just business.

I believe this is a case of the artistic world meeting the cynical lawyer world. A lawyers job is to clearly outline a transaction with as few loopholes (or as many) as possible. Ours is a much more nebulous, free spirited approach with the goal of creating something the client will love with as few restrictions as possible. Two parties seperated by a common language....

I suppose the bottom line is that I trust in our product. Maybe I am too optimistic and will get flattened here but I refuse to give in to the cynical approach. I'll keep you posted!

Mike

Mike F Smith · January 17th, 2006, 08:45 PM

This is a great thread Mike. Keep in mind a young lawyer singing your praises is a good thing to have. I wouln't worry about not getting paid personally. I would want to be covered should things go the other way and you had a major system failure. It's good that you were able to give her some edducation on what it takes to do good work. If your contract says basicly that you are not to be held liable should things go bad then I'm ok with it. Personally I think it kind of small for someone who can make $300 or more an hour all day long to come back at a guy with a seven page addendum who is trying to make it work with his video camera but maybe she doesn't know how long it takes to make a good product and hopefully you have brought her up to speed on that. I do in the future favor the idea of you holding firm on the contract that is there to protect you. I used to do a lot of custom home building and additions, people were always asking me do to things that were sub code. I always said sorry but you need to get someone else. 90 percent of the time they would then elect to do it right the other 10 percent weren't worth working for. As far as having a shot list, I make it very clear that any list of shots is a wish list and not in any way to be construed as a to do list for a successful project.

Mike Smith

Travis Cossel · January 18th, 2006, 08:06 PM

I had a wedding couple just recently where the groom was the lawyer, and to boot he was also the front man for the wedding planning. The bride was much less involved. He had a few issues with my contract (mostly just questions), but nothing like a 7-page addendum. I could understand an extra page to clarify things, but from where I sit a 7-page addendum seems awfully excessive.

Now, to your bride's credit, I sincerely doubt that she was trying to get away with anything. I never thought that of my groom lawyer. They are just trying to protect themselves. However, you have to protect yourself as well, and live events are nothing to sneeze at, especially weddings since much of what is planned does not actually go as planned. I know I would never change or add on to my current contract unless I felt totally comfortable with the change or add on. And for that matter, the fact that I have nothing but satisfied clients would make me even less inclined to cater to the whims and fears of a lawyer. I think you did the right thing in educating the bride so she could understand the challenges you face.

It sounds like you have worked things out, so good for you. She will likely be a good source of referrals for future work.

Tim Borek · January 19th, 2006, 08:15 AM

Sounds like it's this woman's bad experiences and not her profession that make her overly critical of Mike's contract. My wife was in law school when we married in '96, and neither of us agonized over our videographer's contract. Of course, videography's come a long way in ten years, so client expectations these days are (and should be) higher.

My point is that lawyers are people too, and some of them have hearts :)

December 30th, 2005, 08:48 AM	#17
Mike Teutsch Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 2,614	Sounds like you have thought it out well. Best of luck and let us know how it goes. Mike __________________ Chapter one, line one. The BH.

December 31st, 2005, 08:46 PM	#20
Bob Costa Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Venice, FL Posts: 850	Well, my contract basically reads that I will do my best, but if I miss shots or events for any reason at all, sorry about that. If you have this kind of clause in your contract (and you should), she should be smart enough to know that nothing else she adds really matters. At the very least I would add enough to their bill to pay for a lawyer to review her changes. And I would probably add in enough to buy some lawsuit insurance, since it costs her NOTHING to go the court route if she feels slighted or thinks she looks fat. More likely I would just use my contract as-is, or write up in my own language anything that needs to be changed or added. __________________ You are either growing or dying.

January 17th, 2006, 08:45 PM	#22
Mike F Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 156	Good Thread This is a great thread Mike. Keep in mind a young lawyer singing your praises is a good thing to have. I wouln't worry about not getting paid personally. I would want to be covered should things go the other way and you had a major system failure. It's good that you were able to give her some edducation on what it takes to do good work. If your contract says basicly that you are not to be held liable should things go bad then I'm ok with it. Personally I think it kind of small for someone who can make $300 or more an hour all day long to come back at a guy with a seven page addendum who is trying to make it work with his video camera but maybe she doesn't know how long it takes to make a good product and hopefully you have brought her up to speed on that. I do in the future favor the idea of you holding firm on the contract that is there to protect you. I used to do a lot of custom home building and additions, people were always asking me do to things that were sub code. I always said sorry but you need to get someone else. 90 percent of the time they would then elect to do it right the other 10 percent weren't worth working for. As far as having a shot list, I make it very clear that any list of shots is a wish list and not in any way to be construed as a to do list for a successful project. Mike Smith

January 18th, 2006, 08:06 PM	#23
Travis Cossel Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,933	I had a wedding couple just recently where the groom was the lawyer, and to boot he was also the front man for the wedding planning. The bride was much less involved. He had a few issues with my contract (mostly just questions), but nothing like a 7-page addendum. I could understand an extra page to clarify things, but from where I sit a 7-page addendum seems awfully excessive. Now, to your bride's credit, I sincerely doubt that she was trying to get away with anything. I never thought that of my groom lawyer. They are just trying to protect themselves. However, you have to protect yourself as well, and live events are nothing to sneeze at, especially weddings since much of what is planned does not actually go as planned. I know I would never change or add on to my current contract unless I felt totally comfortable with the change or add on. And for that matter, the fact that I have nothing but satisfied clients would make me even less inclined to cater to the whims and fears of a lawyer. I think you did the right thing in educating the bride so she could understand the challenges you face. It sounds like you have worked things out, so good for you. She will likely be a good source of referrals for future work. __________________ Black Label Films www.blacklabelweddingfilms.com

January 19th, 2006, 08:15 AM	#24
Tim Borek Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Westfield, IN Posts: 353	Lawyers Sounds like it's this woman's bad experiences and not her profession that make her overly critical of Mike's contract. My wife was in law school when we married in '96, and neither of us agonized over our videographer's contract. Of course, videography's come a long way in ten years, so client expectations these days are (and should be) higher. My point is that lawyers are people too, and some of them have hearts :)

December 30th, 2005, 08:43 AM	#16
Mike Cook Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Portland OR Posts: 190	Well thank you folks for all the input. Very interesting. After much thought, quite a few phone calls and a meeting this is my impression. First, the client needed some education in the ways of video. Once some things were explained to her, she understood and removed most of the offensive language. It was not a case of "trying to get away with something". Rather, it was simply not understanding the nature of live action video. I agree with the post stating "you ought to be able to put away your day job for a while". She doesn't agree. Her take is that she is simply putting in writing all the things I state on my web page and the things we talked about. Her position is that this just makes it clear what both of us expect to do. My first reaction to all this was to run like hell. She is, however, a pretty nice person in person. Upon further investigation it turns out she has been in the bridal party of two weddings that had vendors go bad. In one case the video guy. Now before we get all defensive and say things like "you can't go around judging others that way" let's review this. Here is LA there are a HUGE number of jokers out there who buy a camera and nail up a shingle. The horror stories are endless and the wedding industry in general does a pretty poor job in self policing. So, with that kind of reputation I really can't fault her too much for the paranoia. I am going to give it a run. I tend to trust my gut on people and I think she is straight up. I will post anything interesting that transpires. Thanks again for the views, they helped make the decision. Mike

January 1st, 2006, 09:54 AM	#21
Mike Cook Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Portland OR Posts: 190	I don't think I will allow and "addendum" again. We made the mistake of opening the door on this by "having a look" at what she sent. From now on there will simply be no discussion about this sort of thing. Either you take us as we are or not. Nothing personal, just business. I believe this is a case of the artistic world meeting the cynical lawyer world. A lawyers job is to clearly outline a transaction with as few loopholes (or as many) as possible. Ours is a much more nebulous, free spirited approach with the goal of creating something the client will love with as few restrictions as possible. Two parties seperated by a common language.... I suppose the bottom line is that I trust in our product. Maybe I am too optimistic and will get flattened here but I refuse to give in to the cynical approach. I'll keep you posted! Mike

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