Compression Codec - A happy discovery.
 

The move to a 64-bit OS for use with Vegas was pretty simple. I installed 8.0c and everything was terrific. However, installing and using Vegas 8.1 wasn't so great. I love the increased speed, but a MAJOR problem reared it's head.

Vegas 8.1 only supports .avi codecs that are 64 bit native. So all my wonderful codecs from the 32 bit program were now unusable to me. No more Cineform, Blackmagic/Aja, no more HuffYUV. Everything needed to move around as uncompressed now. The other alternative was to embrace a quicktime workflow instead of an avi one. And I did that and was pleased. However, since I do a lot of work in Virtualdub, it meant I had to render out to an avi file to do anything.

In searching around today, I was pleased to find that Lagarith offers a 64 bit version. So I decided to try it. It uses some HuffYUV code, but departs from there. I tried it in Vegas 8.0c and it was fine. I tried it on Vegas 8.1 and it read and could render to the codec. And lo and behold VirtualDub likes it too! So this is my new 64 bit intermediate.

One more thing. There was some discussion as to whether 8.1 was faster and that got knocked around a while when it was released. I loaded a 5 second 1080p clip on the timeline in 8.0c and rendered a 1080p lagarith file from it. It took 1:58. I then loaded the same 1080p file in 8.1 and rendered a 1080p lagarith. Time 0:26.

Yea, it's faster!

I realized I needed to update this information for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, the .avi file type on the PC is tied to the Video For Windows (vfw) specifications, which only allows 8-bit color. This is a huge drawback for anyone wishing to do precise color correction or grading on the PC. It also forces us into a workflow that utilizes quicktime if we want the best results.

Secondly, the Lagarith codec is not all I had hoped for. In testing this week, I found the codec to be unacceptably lossy in Chroma information. So it will no longer be my mastering format. It looks like I'll be moving to Quicktime mastering instead to get to 10-bit color.

And finally, a positive. Avid has developed some new codecs built just for what we are doing. They have found success in Hollywood and my tests have shown that they are viable for amateur work as well. The DNxHD family of codecs seems efficient, and loss is perfectly acceptable. In fact, rendering my MXF material out to uncompressed and to DNxHD 220 was virtually identical.

The Avid Codecs are available for both PC and Mac and both operate under quicktime so you can have 10 bit RGB color space. They move well on the timeline also. The DNxHD 36 codec has been used as a DI codec for Iron Man, The Darjeeling Limited, and several other Hollywood projects. In my tests, coming from the XDCamEX codec, the DHxHD 36 codec was nearly lossless. The added benefit is that it cuts as easy as SD.

For file size comparisons, I took a mock interview that I did a couple of weeks ago that was 1 minute and 2 seconds long, and encoded it to uncompressed, DNxHD 220 (Mastering quality) and to DNxHD 36, the proxy size. This was an MXF XdCamEX 1080p original

Original 1080/24p 282,021 KB
----------------------

Uncompressed 1080p 12,194,176
Uncompressed SD 1,724,920
Avid DnXHD 36 276,740
Avid DNxHD 175 (1080p/24) 1,359,354

Render times on my laptop are about 5:1 for the proxy format and about 6:1 for the mastering format. Or about the same thing I was seeing going to uncompressed or to mp4. Both are significantly faster than my QT PNG encodes.

If we look at this critically, the ability to go from an originating format at 5:1 on a core2 Duo laptop, cut on that laptop at the speed of SD, and have file sizes 1/44th size of uncompressed, 1/6th the size of SD uncompressed, and even smaller than the original in the case of the EX1 is stunning. The Mastering format is even smaller than Uncompressed SD. This means I will be able to save most of my masters on DVD instead of BluRay, saving me a small fortune in media costs right now.

The fact that this codec is a free download for both Mac and PC users and works on 32 and 64 bit OS's and software is icing on the cake.

Goodbye AVI, hello Quicktime.

Couple of questions:

How well does the QT codec work? I have heard that Quicktime is a little slow in Vegas compared to avi. Is there an interface that downloads with it or does it only work in programs like TMPGEnc Xpress or VirtualDub? Thanks in advance.

Thomas

Thomas, I am not sure I understand your questions.

You drop a quicktime encoded video onto the timeline in Vegas just like it was anything else. You don't notice anything different. When you go to encode something, you simply select Quicktime (mov) and then choose the installed codec you want to use. Works just like AVI in that regard. It's seamless.

If you have Vegas already, give it a shot. A number of quicktime codecs come standard with Vegas so try it out on a short video. Maybe 5-10 seconds worth.

I am really enjoying the 10bit support of Quicktime though. No more 8-bit limits working with Vegas.

I was mainly worried about QT codec. I have not transcoded to a QT file for editing in Vegas before because I have read from others on the forum that editing with a .mov codec is a nightmare on a PC. I will definitely give it a try.

As far as my other question, I have an HV20 and must remove the pulldown before I edit and I use TMPGEnc to do that. I was hoping it had its own interface like Cineform HDlink.

Don't worry about the codec. Work's just fine. Just use a codec designed for editing, and not one designed for finishing!

Why do you need to remove pulldown? I never did with my DVX.

It is complicated, but the DVX adds "flags" that the NLE can then remove. The HV20 is a consumer camera that does not add flags and therefore must be removed, as the NLE can not figure out the proper cadence. Plus, working with an intermediate rather than M2ts, as I'm sure you know, is a lot less degrading of the footage.

Perrone, just a heads up. You probably knew this already but it was a discovery for me. If you drop your MXF onto the Vegas timeline, you can smart render it back out to the same MXF format with no recompression to XDCAM-EX HQ 35 mbps 4:2:0.

It will re-encode the frame on either side of a cut-edit, and no-recompress the rest. The exception of course would be your color graded edits.

In what scenario would you do this? I am generally in a hurry to get my files OUT of the 4:2:0, mpeg2, MXF format.

Two scenarios:

1.) Fast, lossless edits, where I want to shorten or combine mxf clips.

2.) I want to author in AVC a 23.976p Blu-ray project in DVD Architect without encoding the source twice. The Vegas AVC Sony template doesn't support 23.976, and the Vegas mainconcept AVC template does support 23.976 but won't pass through DVD Architect natively without rendering it for a second time.

For example, you put your 23.976p mxf clips on the vegas timeline, do your cut/splice/join edits, render back out losslessly to mxf, it takes no time, no loss in quality.

In DVD Architect, open the mxf you just rendered and author a 23.976p Blu-ray project in AVC at 18mbps. DVD Architect takes it's sweet time, but outputs a *Beautiful* AVC 18mbps average vbr encode that will peak between 2 and 34 mbps. I haven't seen that range of variability from other input codecs, nor the quality of the encode. DVD Architect really likes mxf.

GREAT info! I wish I could use it! Practically everything I shoot needs titles, or other work. Including color balancing, skin tone work, etc. So I am nearly always pushing my stuff around. Hence why I choose 10bit codecs whenever possible.

But for cuts only, this is really terrific info. I've burned a number of BluRays, but none for movies yet. Hopefully in a few months time...

It's just something to be aware of. Vegas is very fast rendering titles. That along with your color grading may only be needed for certain parts of a clip and not others. So if those are the circumstances, (you know best) Vegas will speed through some sections without recompressing, and slow down for others, only rendering what it needs to. When it reaches a part of the timeline it doesn't need to render, it will indicate this to you on the edit window, which will go black and display "No Recompression," so you will always know.

Anyway, just a tip...

What am I missing?
 

Perrone,

I downloaded and installed this codec, but don't see it as an option when I want to render the video.

What am I missing?

Regards,

George

Never Mind, I found it...
 

Thanks for posting the link!

GP

Perrone - which DNxHD codecs would you recommend for converting 1080i m2t files to edit with in Vegas Pro? Have you noticed a huge performance gain by going VP8.1 64 and the DNxHD codec as opposed to editing with VP8?

I'd like to have files that could me dealt with in something like an Avid MC situation if needed.

I tend to use the DNxHD 36 for my stuff. It cuts quite easily in Vegas, even on my laptop. I do notice a significant performance difference in 8.1. But I use both programs still because 8.0c has codec support that 8.1 does not.

Perrone,

Are you saying that you can convert your existing .m2t HDV clips directly into this DNxHD 36 codec and then edit these in Vegas 8.1? Do you find the performance editing these clips is superior to editing HDV .m2t on the timeline?

Jon

No, that is not what I am saying. The EX1 shoots Mpeg2 wrapped in an mp4 containter. I can convert THOSE directly to DNxHD outside of Vegas. I can render HDV files from within Vegas (8.1/8.0c) to DNxHD.

I don't know, I tend not to edit HDV on my timeline. I prefer to transcode before bringing my files into Vegas. This includes a change to square pixels, a deinterlace, and often a file size change. Occasionally it also entails a frame rate change from 60i to 24p.

Spent most of the day testing and my conclusion is that Quicktime on the PC is the bottle neck. I have Procoder 3 on my machine so could do a batch convert of the 1080i m2t files from my HC7's to the DNxHD 36 codec - set everything the way I thought it should be - based upon some input Perrone gave in private email exchanges. Bottom line is Quicktime is crippleware as far as I can determine - and since there's no way I can see to rewrap the MOV to an AVI, looks like Cineform NEO Scene is the way I will be going.

Tested on both my Dell D620 2.0Ghz Core2Duo with a WD 320GB 7200RPM System drive and WD 250GB 7200RPM video drive in the second bay. My Q6600 desktop with separate HD's fared a little better - each machine has 4GB of RAM running Vista 64. Latest version of Quicktime Pro as well. Could barely get 16 fps at 1/4 preview rez in the timeline monitor window - even less on my laptop.

Unless proven otherwise, I'm pretty sure the DNxHD codec route with Vegas Pro 8 is a no go for me at least - I was hoping otherwise.

Perrone,
Sorry if this is a newb question, but how do you convert the EX1 "raw" files to the Avid formats outside of Vegas?
Pete

Sorry to hear that Cliff, but I certainly understand where you're coming from. Putting 1080 on the timeline is a bear. I have no doubt that Cineform, with the VFW pipeline is going to be faster. I'm sure my expectations were lower than yours in terms of editing speed.

I'll be curious to the results of people who've been machines around the avchd format and what their experiences will be.

There is a utility to do it. Click on my name here, and go to my homepage. Browse to Avid, and you will see the folder with the tool.

Thanks. Got it. Now I just have to figure out how this all works! Ain't life great?
Pete

Easy as pie. Point the tool at an XDCamEX .mp4 file directory, specify an output directory, highlight the files you want to convert, select a bitrate, push the magic button! :)

What am I doing wrong?
 

Perrone,

I downloaded the Avid DNxHD codec, but when I render (Quicktime 7, Video format = Avid DNxHD codec, compressed depth = 32 bpp color, quality 80%, progressive scan, frame rate = 29.970 NTSC, frame size NTSC DV 720 x 480), it takes 10 hours (PC with Athlon 5400+, 5g RAM) to render and the file is over 100 GB in size!

What am I doing wrong? I just want to make a quality DVD out of the DV video that I've shot. What codec do I need, how do I need to set it, etc, to render a quality file that I can burn to DVD?

Thanks,

GP

Dear GOD man!

First, if you are working with SD (720x480) there is no need for you to use the DNxHD codec. It's designed for HD, not SD.

Second, if you are writing SD DVDs, you need to be encoding mpeg2. That is the only codec that DVDs use.

So two questions:

1. What NLE are you using? (Vegas, Premiere, etc.)
2. How long is the program you are trying to encode?
3. What program are you using to burn your DVDs?

And yes, a 10 hour long encode on a machine of your class doesn't seem out of line at all. But you're really going the long-way around at the moment. If you answer my three questions, people here should be able to help you much better.

>>1. What NLE are you using? (Vegas, Premiere, etc.)

Vegas

>>2. How long is the program you are trying to encode?

1- 1.5 hours

>>3. What program are you using to burn your DVDs?

iDVD. I have MacDrive that allows me to use my mac drives with Vegas. I render to them and use iDVD to make the DVD's.

Thanks,

GP

I was interested to try DNxHD -- I use Vegas Pro 8.0, but haven't used QT much because I never needed to before. I downloaded the free Avid DNxHD codec, and had QT already installed on my machine. But when I tried rendering part of the Vegas timeline as a mov (for the first time, I might add), I got a warning dialogue:

"The Sony QuickTime plug-in was not able to initilaize the QuickTime components on your system. It appears that QuickTime for Windows is not properly installed. QuickTime files cannot be be read or written without a full installation of the QuickTime version 7.1.6 or greater components, including the authoring components."

I checked my version of QuickTime and sure enough it was 7.0.3, so clearly I needed to upgrade, but this was my first problem. On the Apple website it says the download is for Windows and Mac, but the only download I can find is a dmg file which Windows does not recognize. How can I get QuickTime for Windows?

I went to this page:
Apple - QuickTime - Download

Chose "QuickTime 7.6 for Windows XP or Vista" (i.e. the one WITHOUT iTunes)

When clicking on the download button, it wanted to download an EXE file.

Edward - that link is the page I used, but I don't see where I can specify the Windows version. If you click the main "Free download now" button you have to accept "QuickTime76_leopard.dmg" (or Tiger version) which Windows doesn't want to open. I can't see on the page where to get the Windows version.

Refresh the screen and it should list windows options instead (if you're downloading from Windows). The first time to the screen showed Windows options for me. After clicking on download, I clicked on Back and it then showed me Mac options. I hit refresh and it showed me Windows options again.

Be advised that Avid tests their system with various versions of Quicktime. The Avid website posts QT versions that are approved for use with Avid products. The version changes with new releases of Avid products. As far as I know, the latest version of QT is not officially sanctioned by Avid for use. This may be pertinent or not.

Edward -- I tried again, refreshing several times, but still no good. Perhaps it makes a difference that my internet machine is Linux (won't allow me to see the Windows option?). My Windows workstation isn't connected to the net, so I guess I'll have to get my friend to download it for me...

Bill -- interesting point. Anyone on here using the latest version of QT and had problems (or not had problems) rendering out with DNxHD?

Yes, the QT download page is definately sniffing browsers and operating systems. I remember seeing a QT developer area with a richer set of self-contained installers, somewhere at apple.com.

Otherwise, yes, you will have to be on a Windows OS to download it.

Go here:

ftp://98.230.31.52


You'll find what you need.

The only thing I see in the "quicktime" folder is an iTunes setup.

Yes, Apple no longer calls it quicktime on the download. Let me change the name.

They have two downloads:

1. Quicktime + iTunes
2. Quicktime only

Personally, I prefer #2

Yes, Edward am aware of that, and #2 is what I downloaded and put on the FTP site. But apple still NAMES it itunes.

Hmmm..

"How many video editors does it take to download Quicktime?" :-)

Jon