Vegas Video discussions from 2006 (Q1Q2)

Eric Stromblad · February 19th, 2006, 02:48 PM

I've done a lot of projects in vegas (6) recently and rendered an ntsc mpeg video stream (this comes out as .m2v) and an ac3 file and brought them into DVD architect (3). I then add the chapter points in architect, make the menu, and burn. This works fine, but does anyone know any time saving methods?

The big one would be if there was a way to set some markers in vegas as chapter points to be remembered in architect. This would be way better for me because I bring in video by the chapters from DVD, line them up and then make my edits. It would be a lot simpler to put markers there than having to right down time code and then go frame by frame and find them in architect.

Also, since I'm pulling these in by the old vob and ac3 files to edit, do I still have to render new mpegs and ac3's or is there a way to send some kind of edl to architect and let it use my vegas timeline for the main movie file?

These projects are for a local tv talk show who sells their shows to viewers. They had an old editor who made some cheesy looking dvd menus and there were some products that they no longer sell. My job is to re-edit the video, deleting some product offers, adding in new ones, and making a new menu, sometimes keeping parts of the old menu (contact information). The chapter points usually stay around the same basic part of the show, but at a few minutes ahead or behind.

David Bird · February 19th, 2006, 05:27 PM

DSE...
Thanks for the tips...I was trying to capture HDV instead of DV...so of course V6 couldn't find the #$#@ device!
As usual, it's the "little things" that make life unpredictable :)
Regards - David

Paul Cascio · February 19th, 2006, 05:35 PM

nm

Thanks

Edward Troxel · February 19th, 2006, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Stromblad

The big one would be if there was a way to set some markers in vegas as chapter points to be remembered in architect.

You CAN. Just add markers to the timeline (properly named) in Vegas. When rendering, make sure the "Include Markers" option is checked. DVDA will then read those markers as chapter points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Stromblad

Also, since I'm pulling these in by the old vob and ac3 files to edit, do I still have to render new mpegs and ac3's or is there a way to send some kind of edl to architect and let it use my vegas timeline for the main movie file?

If you're editing in Vegas, you'll have to re-render the MPEG2. If the edits are "cuts only", you might look at some other program that doesn't require re-rendering (like Womble, for example)

Finn Hensner · February 20th, 2006, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredrik Forsell

2. The film is only 30 min long. Do I need to encode the audio in ac3 or can I render it as PCM? I read somewhere in this forum that the audio might get to low when using ac3, and I thought that if I simply make it PCM I get around that problem? I have never burned a dvd before; can I use an PCM audiofile or does it have to be ac3 when making the dvd? The project is in stereo, not surround. (A sidequestion: what level in the audiometer level should I try to aim for when I´m editing the audio? Should I keep it well below 0db, or always try to keep it as close to the red area as possible, or in the middle? I know that for dramatic events I shoudl increase the volume in order to surprise the viewers, but other then that, what level should I aim for in general?)

3. Might it be a good idea to render the project as avi (and pcm) if I want to keep a sourcesfile on my hd, and then render the avi to mpg2 when making the dvd? I ask that question since I never have worked with mpeg2 files in Vegas and are a little bit afraid that I after the long rendering see something I want to change, and that it´s more complicated to do that with a mpeg2 file.

2. You could leave the audio in PCM if space on the DVD is not an issue. Otherwise use AC-3. The term itself not equal to 5.1, you can compress a 2-channel project with AC-3, it will show as 2 channels when playing the DVD. AC-3 will not to my knowledge alter the output level of the audio.

As to levels: I would not let the highest peak exceed -2dB, that leaves you with some headroom. Set a limiter or compressor on the master bus. You would like to keep your dialog levels below that peak level, or it will be kinda loud. And make sure that the dialog track is evenly compressed so nothing sticks out too much. I like the Waves Ultramaximizer+ but Sony's Wave Hammer will do the trick. Try different levels for the dialog and listen to it both on a TV set and in a home theatre environment. Many movies keep the dialog around -12dB, but that's generally a little low for TV audiences. As to levels of sound effects, ambience and music, all that really works is to try and listen.

3. Always keep uncompressed projects. Burn backups to data-DVD:s for safety. Then export smaller portions to MPEG-2 and see if they're ok. When you're satisfied, export the entire project.

Good luck/lycka till!
Finn

Declan Smith · February 20th, 2006, 12:10 PM

How do tell Vegas which DV codec to use ? I have the mainconcept DV codec installed but don't know how to get vegas to use it. I have unticked the "ignore 3rd party codec" check box, but I can't tell from anywhere which codec it will pick up. What I did notice was that when that box is unchecked, text overlays result in a sudden brightness change at the end of the overlay, which doesn't happen when the box is checked.

I have had problems with Vegas & levels between Combustion renders and Vegas renders. Vegas seems to render everything darker, so I assume it is working at different ire levels or something. I am in PAL land so if anyone knows the best way to set vegas up for PAL then please advise. I would like as "lossless" as possible between compositing app & vegas, but still using the DV codec (hence mainconcept).

Douglas Spotted Eagle · February 20th, 2006, 12:20 PM

you can instruct Vegas about which codec to use when rendering by hitting the "Custom" button and in the video tab, select the codec you want. If you're rendering an intermediate for Combustion, I'd use uncompressed instead.
Keep in mind that Combustion is set up for 0-255 whereas the Vegas codec is 16-235. You'll want to use setup on the render from combustion.

Don Donatello · February 20th, 2006, 01:23 PM

Vegas DV25 codec maps 16-235rgb ... combustion mapping depends on the codec you choose but in general it is set up for 0-255 mapping using 8 bit clips and 0-1000 something with higher bit codec's ....

combustion will default to use microsofts dv codec which maps 0-255rgb .. in combustion you can choose to render using the mainconcepts dv codec ( same in vegas) .. i think mains codec maps 0-255??

i use combiustion. if the section is short i render out of vegas uncompressed avi/qt .. if long then i render out using the microcosm codec ( $$ - you buy it) .. i render the same back out of combustion then drop uncompressed rendered clips back into Vegas TL

Aanarav Sareen · February 20th, 2006, 02:03 PM

I am looking to upgrade my copy of Vegas 4 to 6 and I was wondering if the boxed version has some extra stuff (namely: manuals and other extras)

Edward Troxel · February 20th, 2006, 02:22 PM

The box (most likely "envelope" but NO box) will have a quick start guide (NOT the full manual) and few other pieces of paper (some ads and the serial numbers, etc...). For the full manual, you have a PDF file (which many have taken to a "quick print" location to get printed) and/or the help file.

Even if you DO get the media shipped to you, ignore the programs on the CD's and download and install the most current update anyway.

There *may* be a few "extras" on the CD. I don't know the contents of the shipping CDs.

Declan Smith · February 20th, 2006, 02:28 PM

Ok, got it!

I went through this exercise a while back to fix differences between Combustion & Vegas. Having changed everything to widescreen I forgot to setup my templates to use the right codec (and forgot how to change it!), but all sorted now!

Why the difference in levels though ? is 16-235 generally used for NTSC and 0-255 for PAL? Why/when would you use one over the other?

Aanarav Sareen · February 20th, 2006, 05:30 PM

Hi Edward,
Thanks for the info. I think I will go ahead and purchase the "enveloped" version instead :-)

Declan Smith · February 20th, 2006, 07:53 PM

Now when I print to tape, and click the custom button, I can set all the correct parameters for the codec I want etc, but when I click ok, it goes back to the template screen and selects NTSC template, and doesn;t appear to have saved the one I just created.

It all worked for normal rendering and for pre-rendering, but not for printing to tape.

Dave Largent · February 20th, 2006, 10:58 PM

Not too impressed with the one that comes with
Vegas, in Film Effects. Looking for something more steady and rythmic.
Anyone know of any plugins, other than the one with
Magic Bullet?

Glenn Chan · February 20th, 2006, 11:10 PM

DV records video as Y' Cb Cr.
The Y' is the luma component, which approximates brightness. Think of it as black and white. Cb and Cr handle color.

The legal range for 8bit Y' values is 16-235. Maximum black is at 16, maximum white at 235. The rest is dedicated for over/undershoot of the signal, and 1 of the codes (0) is reserved for something else (sync pulses I think).

So that's where the 16-235 comes from.

Both PAL and NTSC are like this. To be more correct, digital video formats for PAL and NTSC markets are like this (PAL and NTSC are analog video encoding schemes, and not digital formats).

2- The DV codecs mentioned need to convert from Y' Cb Cr to RGB.

Going with 16-235:

Helps to avoid rounding error on the conversion back to Y' Cb Cr.

Some DV cameras record stuff in the 235-255 range (referred to as "superwhites). They provide an additional 0.3+ stops of exposure. The material has the video knee applied to it, which compromises hue/saturation to provide additional highlight detail / stops of exposure.
A codec that decodes to 0-255 will clip this information right off the bat.

Lets you put superwhites and superblacks onto tape... i.e. if you want to record SMPTE color bars properly.

Going with 0-255:
These are the proper levels for display on a computer monitor. Computer monitors see black level at 0 (not 16), and white level at 255 (not 235). DV decoded to studio RGB will look wrong on a computer monitor.

Is easier to code filters for. Many filters are coded to work in 0-255, even many of Vegas' filters.

I hope that answers your questions Declan. My preference is to stick with the default Sony DV codec.

February 19th, 2006, 02:48 PM	#511
Eric Stromblad New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 15	Vegas to DVD architect I've done a lot of projects in vegas (6) recently and rendered an ntsc mpeg video stream (this comes out as .m2v) and an ac3 file and brought them into DVD architect (3). I then add the chapter points in architect, make the menu, and burn. This works fine, but does anyone know any time saving methods? The big one would be if there was a way to set some markers in vegas as chapter points to be remembered in architect. This would be way better for me because I bring in video by the chapters from DVD, line them up and then make my edits. It would be a lot simpler to put markers there than having to right down time code and then go frame by frame and find them in architect. Also, since I'm pulling these in by the old vob and ac3 files to edit, do I still have to render new mpegs and ac3's or is there a way to send some kind of edl to architect and let it use my vegas timeline for the main movie file? These projects are for a local tv talk show who sells their shows to viewers. They had an old editor who made some cheesy looking dvd menus and there were some products that they no longer sell. My job is to re-edit the video, deleting some product offers, adding in new ones, and making a new menu, sometimes keeping parts of the old menu (contact information). The chapter points usually stay around the same basic part of the show, but at a few minutes ahead or behind.

February 19th, 2006, 05:35 PM	#513
Paul Cascio Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bristol, CT (Home of EPSN) Posts: 1,192	Thanks! NM nm Thanks __________________ Paul Cascio www.pictureframingschool.com

February 20th, 2006, 12:10 PM	#516
Declan Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Posts: 187	Vegas & Codecs How do tell Vegas which DV codec to use ? I have the mainconcept DV codec installed but don't know how to get vegas to use it. I have unticked the "ignore 3rd party codec" check box, but I can't tell from anywhere which codec it will pick up. What I did notice was that when that box is unchecked, text overlays result in a sudden brightness change at the end of the overlay, which doesn't happen when the box is checked. I have had problems with Vegas & levels between Combustion renders and Vegas renders. Vegas seems to render everything darker, so I assume it is working at different ire levels or something. I am in PAL land so if anyone knows the best way to set vegas up for PAL then please advise. I would like as "lossless" as possible between compositing app & vegas, but still using the DV codec (hence mainconcept).

February 20th, 2006, 12:20 PM	#517
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	you can instruct Vegas about which codec to use when rendering by hitting the "Custom" button and in the video tab, select the codec you want. If you're rendering an intermediate for Combustion, I'd use uncompressed instead. Keep in mind that Combustion is set up for 0-255 whereas the Vegas codec is 16-235. You'll want to use setup on the render from combustion. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

February 20th, 2006, 02:03 PM	#519
Aanarav Sareen Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: NJ, US Posts: 183	Vegas 6 boxed vs. download I am looking to upgrade my copy of Vegas 4 to 6 and I was wondering if the boxed version has some extra stuff (namely: manuals and other extras) __________________ http://www.sareen.tv

February 19th, 2006, 05:27 PM	#512
David Bird Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Sikeston, Missouri, USA Posts: 118	DSE... Thanks for the tips...I was trying to capture HDV instead of DV...so of course V6 couldn't find the #$#@ device! As usual, it's the "little things" that make life unpredictable :) Regards - David

February 20th, 2006, 01:23 PM	#518
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	Vegas DV25 codec maps 16-235rgb ... combustion mapping depends on the codec you choose but in general it is set up for 0-255 mapping using 8 bit clips and 0-1000 something with higher bit codec's .... combustion will default to use microsofts dv codec which maps 0-255rgb .. in combustion you can choose to render using the mainconcepts dv codec ( same in vegas) .. i think mains codec maps 0-255?? i use combiustion. if the section is short i render out of vegas uncompressed avi/qt .. if long then i render out using the microcosm codec ( $$ - you buy it) .. i render the same back out of combustion then drop uncompressed rendered clips back into Vegas TL

February 20th, 2006, 02:22 PM	#520
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	The box (most likely "envelope" but NO box) will have a quick start guide (NOT the full manual) and few other pieces of paper (some ads and the serial numbers, etc...). For the full manual, you have a PDF file (which many have taken to a "quick print" location to get printed) and/or the help file. Even if you DO get the media shipped to you, ignore the programs on the CD's and download and install the most current update anyway. There may be a few "extras" on the CD. I don't know the contents of the shipping CDs. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

February 20th, 2006, 02:28 PM	#521
Declan Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Posts: 187	Ok, got it! I went through this exercise a while back to fix differences between Combustion & Vegas. Having changed everything to widescreen I forgot to setup my templates to use the right codec (and forgot how to change it!), but all sorted now! Why the difference in levels though ? is 16-235 generally used for NTSC and 0-255 for PAL? Why/when would you use one over the other?

February 20th, 2006, 05:30 PM	#522
Aanarav Sareen Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: NJ, US Posts: 183	Hi Edward, Thanks for the info. I think I will go ahead and purchase the "enveloped" version instead :-) __________________ http://www.sareen.tv

February 20th, 2006, 07:53 PM	#523
Declan Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Posts: 187	It Won't save templates when printing to tape Now when I print to tape, and click the custom button, I can set all the correct parameters for the codec I want etc, but when I click ok, it goes back to the template screen and selects NTSC template, and doesn;t appear to have saved the one I just created. It all worked for normal rendering and for pre-rendering, but not for printing to tape.

February 20th, 2006, 10:58 PM	#524
Dave Largent Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,483	Looking for a decent "old movie" projector flicker Not too impressed with the one that comes with Vegas, in Film Effects. Looking for something more steady and rythmic. Anyone know of any plugins, other than the one with Magic Bullet?

February 20th, 2006, 11:10 PM	#525
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	DV records video as Y' Cb Cr. The Y' is the luma component, which approximates brightness. Think of it as black and white. Cb and Cr handle color. The legal range for 8bit Y' values is 16-235. Maximum black is at 16, maximum white at 235. The rest is dedicated for over/undershoot of the signal, and 1 of the codes (0) is reserved for something else (sync pulses I think). So that's where the 16-235 comes from. Both PAL and NTSC are like this. To be more correct, digital video formats for PAL and NTSC markets are like this (PAL and NTSC are analog video encoding schemes, and not digital formats). 2- The DV codecs mentioned need to convert from Y' Cb Cr to RGB. Going with 16-235: Helps to avoid rounding error on the conversion back to Y' Cb Cr. Some DV cameras record stuff in the 235-255 range (referred to as "superwhites). They provide an additional 0.3+ stops of exposure. The material has the video knee applied to it, which compromises hue/saturation to provide additional highlight detail / stops of exposure. A codec that decodes to 0-255 will clip this information right off the bat. Lets you put superwhites and superblacks onto tape... i.e. if you want to record SMPTE color bars properly. Going with 0-255: These are the proper levels for display on a computer monitor. Computer monitors see black level at 0 (not 16), and white level at 255 (not 235). DV decoded to studio RGB will look wrong on a computer monitor. Is easier to code filters for. Many filters are coded to work in 0-255, even many of Vegas' filters. I hope that answers your questions Declan. My preference is to stick with the default Sony DV codec.