Cineform Connect HD Essential?
 

Hi folks.I thought that Vegas 6 already provides HD editing capability until I read an article on VASST about Cineform Connect HD plugin. It seems that Connect HD is essential to convert the m2t transport files via an intermediate codec, Cineform, to avi for editing. After completion this can be reverted to HD. My question is,why cant Vegas perform HD editing since there is an option for downloading HD when you capture a video from the camcorder? Please correct me if I have misunderstood.

Vegas includes everything needed to edit HDV. A version of the Cineform codec is also included. The full purchase version adds more features but is not required for editing HDV.

A...h thaz a relief. It could stop me from moving to HDV.Thanks Edward! Btw I learnt to do the number plate masking effect finally from yr newletters. Great job!

Sean,
While it would be nice for Vegas to have all the HDV bells and whistles; the fact remains that to extract the BEST HDV performance from Vegas, you'll need to look too products such as ConnectHD and Gearshift.

The developers of these non-core appz can concentrate on refining the performance of their product in dealing specifically with HDV, where the Vegas development team must try to enhance the whole appz video capabilities - not just HDV...

There are actually a number of ways (other capture utilities) to get HDV into Vegas, but very few are as efficient as ConnectHD in how they do it - even the Cineform capability of Vegas 6 is not as efficient as the updated ConnectHD package, because Cineforms tech's are constantly refining their app. for maximum performance.

For the price, ConnectHD is one of the best pieces of software to be found for HDV camcorder owners.

Sean,
That article is from back when Vegas 5 was the only thing available, and doesn't cover Vegas 6 at all. I've just now added a disclaimer, it's hard to keep all the articles up to date.
As Edward and Steve mentioned, you'll want to use either CineForm or GearShift for your editing. Editing native HDV is painful and silly, not to mention difficult to color correct and work with at any accurate level. So, convert to either color-corrected DV proxies, or convert to CineForm after you capture your m2t files.

Oic...thanks for the updates, Spot.So what you mean is the current Vegas6c only offers HD editing in native, which is a very difficult task as you mentioned below. Therefore it is better to get the 2 alternatives to convert HD to an intermidary codec for editing, thereafter reconverting it back to m2t, rite?

My next question is, how do we go on? As blueray is not ready, we have to render it to PAL/NTSC widescreen? After which we take this mpg2 to DVA3 for DVD burning? I noticed Vegas6 has the option to render as HDV 1080i.May I know how good is this? Will the wm player be able to play it?

(Sorri I'm quite ignorant able HD, still trying to find out!)

Sean, Vegas 6 comes with the CineForm codec, but no converter. So, you either need to convert from the timeline, or use a tool like GearShift to do the conversions.
Whether or not you'll use the CineForm codec or a DV Proxy is entirely up to the speed of your computer.

for delivery, currently we're delivering most HDV as SD, but some are also delivered HDCAM. Yes, you'll be rendering to either NTSC or PAL for delivery formatting until we start seeing more delivery options, whether it's Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, HVD, or other hard-good delivery format. Too bad Windows screwed up and didn't license out for settops like they'd promised last year. We'd be watching WMV-HD right now off of regular DVD players.

Sorry I m a little confused now. So what does the cineform codec exactly do in Vegas 6 if there is no convertor?

Assuming I do not have a tool like Gearshift, what am I getting when I stream the footage from the HD cam? If it is m2t does that means I'm editing raw HD on the timeline? Therefore I need Gearshift to convert it to an intermediate codec for editing and reconversion to HD?

Sean,
You can edit the raw m2t's on the Vegas timeline, although there are a lot of reasons to not do so.
You can convert on the Vegas timeline without GearShift, it just takes longer and a little more attention needs to be paid to file management. You can convert to DV, CineForm, or several other formats without GearShift. So in other words, you don't *need* GearShift but it will make your life easier.

To convert to CineForm without GearShift, put your m2t files on the timeline, and choose "File/Render As" and then locate in the avi template, the CineForm/Intermediate templage for 1080i. You're good to go.

question on gearshift?

does gearshift convert the files to cineforms "direct show" version file or "video for windows" version file ?

from cineform site:
Vegas only uses the Video for Windows version of the CineForm codec while HDLink uses the DirectShow version. The DirectShow version is a bit more sophisticated about the manner in which we can code our files, so we get approximately a 30% reduction in file size with HDLink. These smaller files also perform "faster" on the Vegas timeline. There is no quality disadvantage with the VfW codec, and the bitstreams are 100% compatible.

Thanks Spot.. I get it now.

Both Gearshift and ConnectHD are great tools and well worth having. Personally, I prefer the ConnectHD approach though. The workflow with ConnectHD is almost exactly like it is working with DV. The ConnectHD scene splitting works great. The Cinneform files alone are only slightly larger than the combination of M2T and proxy files. Cineform renders are much quicker than M2T renders because they smartrender. The quality of both approaches is about the same in the end. With M2T renders using Gearshift proxies you have at least one generation upon rendering. Working directly with Cineform, you have one generation upon capture, but because of smartrendering, no further degredation unless you are applying filters or some other change during the render. I've seen posts saying that working with M2T files directly avoids a generation, but in reality, both approaches are going to be at least second generation in the end.

OH yes..this reminded me of another pt. I heard that HD doesnt split up the files like DV does. Is that true? Does HD connect & Gearshift does that?

What do you mean.. "split up"?

Are you talking about seperate video and audio tracks?

or

The ability to make seperate clips from the recorded stream by using "scene detection"?

Either way it's a bizarre question... HDV isn't some new form of Voodoo that requires all new spells and incantations to achieve what DV is capable of.

The ability to capture as an unbroken or split-scene data stream is handled definitely by utilities such as Cineform's HDLink (which comes with ConnectHD and AspectHD).

Editing the audio and video streams as seperate entities is exactly the same for HDV as it is for DV in all the leading NLE's.

Gearshift is a utility that allows greater speed of editing by using proxy files of lower resolution to be edited, prior to their automatic replacement by the original m2t HDV files at render time. It also allows for speedy and accurate transposition of frame rate and format for specific needs.

Seems like you're getting all concerned over nothing - by listening/reading stuff from bimboes and dolts.

Do you really reckon Sony, JVC, Canon and Sharp would have been dumb enough to decide on a new video format that was unuseable?

Granted, there were early difficulties with some software having to be redesigned to work with a much BIGGER data stream, and slightly different data perameters. That was long enough ago, that it's the dim-dark-past from my perspective!!

It'll pay for you to educate yourself about the terminology and basic processes involved if you want to be serious about Digital Video in either it's DV or HD/HDV permutations.

Hopefully you now know that "splitting up" a HDV file in ANY FASHION, is totally possible and the options for doing so are becoming faster and more plentiful...

The Cineform capture utilities split up the captures into scenes just like standard DV captures do. If you capture directly into a program like Vegas, you get one large M2T file.

Don't flame me on this one I'm a newbiee. So if I convert my large m2t file into the proper avi file will that big large file be splited up the captures? like in editing SD? I really don't like the way m2t is one big file and no "capture" detection when it comes to HDV.

Thanks

That was one of the big reasons I bought the ConnectHD software. I like the smaller scene split files. Without it you get HUGE files that make your PC really sluggish. The only real way to do it without ConnectHD is to manually start and stop the capturing so as to get smaller files.

You can also losslessly divide the M2T files with MPEG Wizard from womble.com, and I've done this recently as well. It works quite well and the divided files work much better.

CF codec is in V6 but does it still detect scenes/captures on HDV? I guess V6 flex its mucles but still not good enough. I need to pick up CF HD then.

Next concern is with CF on V6 will I be able to print to tape back to fx1 or z1? I read somewhere that it won't.

Thanks

Don't know what you're referring to there... Are you saying you heard that you can't write back m2t directly from the Vegas 6 timeline?

If you are - you could be right, but that's why I value ConnectHD, because I can render my project to m2t, then use the HDLink utility that's part of ConnectHD to record the resultant m2t back to the camera!!

Hard to say whether that's a longer process than writing directly from the Vegas 6 timeline, but I'd suspect that writing to tape directly from the timeline - especially HD with edits and fades/crossfades and multiple tracks etc, etc; would be beyond the capabilites of any currently available computing system...

Well, shoot. That sucks. I was hoping to just buy Gearshift -- since my system is a slow 2.6 Pentium 4 processor. I've tried the Connect HD demo, and although quite nice -- in fact, incredibly nice -- it is also incredibly sluggish on my system. Gearshift just runs better on my system, but I have yet to try it with my FX1 (which is on order). But I need scene file detection...

Someone correct me, I'm still trying to figure this out.
Capture HD footage from cam using Cineform HD -> palce on timeline on V6->convert back to oringal file using Cineform HD-> then using Cineform HD to print to tape? or someday blue ray!!!???

Thanks

As far as I know, nobody's printing HDV back to tape yet. It's been announced as a future Cineform feature though, so some day we should be able to.

Another thing about using the Cineform ConnectHD capture utility is that not only does it split scenes, but it writes files about 30% smaller than Vegas does (not Vegas's fault, but that's the way it is). 30% on files this large is quite a bit of hard disc space!

Lots of people are printing back to HDV tape, myself included. You can do this via either Vegas or via CineForm. This is what the Export tab is for. It really should be named "Print to tape" rather than export, so that it conforms with industry "speak" but it's the same thing.

Thanks lawrence.. I was asking specifically if the scene detection is available in V6.. so the answer is I need ConnectHD or Gearshift.

Thanks Spot. I see now. Can I "print to tape" from Vegas with the Cineform codec. I see that the HDLink utility will only print M2T back to tape. I'd rather save a generation and just "export" the cineform codec file if possible.

NOTE: Temporarily Connect HD will not export edited material from the Sony Vegas 5 timeline back to the HDR-FX1. An update will be made available from Sony to add this feature in the near future. Anybody who purchases Connect HD is eligible for this update. Please check the Sony Media Software website for updated information about this.

This info was taken from videoguys.com web site. What good will editing HD do when you can't even do the final step in video production..DELIVERY.

Vegas 5 not Vegas 6, and not later versions of Connect HD. The first version of Connect HD had issues printing to tape. Those are long, long over.

hey folx,

was about to start a new thread about this when i read this thread. so i should continue the thought here.

i have a dual amd 2.1ghz CPU, 4GB ram, etc. i recently downloaded some of the footages from XL H1 and wanted to edit them into one file w/Vegas 6c. the m2t files played fine through my media player classic, but after i imported them into vegas 6c timeline, it was so pixelized and sluggish that i can't use them. does this have to do with cineform/gearshift or is this a preference feature that i haven't discovered yet? i can edit regular DVs fine.

if there is no solution in editing the m2t's directly, how do people edit it? i've read through the thread, but i'm still not very clear. it sounds to me like if my system can't handle m2ts directly, i should use either a proxy or convert it to a format that i can edit properly. but wouldn't conversion hurt the image quality? if so, wouldn't one want to use the proxy? how does one setup a m2t->preview image proxy edit?

BTW i have used auto, draft previews and none of it works. it's pixelated and barely plays back at all.

you got the idea. need to convert that m2t file cause its to large to edit it natively. then when your done you reconvert it back to the original m2t. i read that you won't be able to tell the difference as far as the image quality being compromised. from all the readings and research i gonna try Cineform HD triall version. by the way i visited your state in the summer...very rich in history!

It's either the preview mode you're looking in, or you rendered proxies in GearShift and you're looking at the GearShift Proxies in an HD project.

Cineform Intermeidate AVI vs. M2T
 

Here is the workflow in Vegas 6 that I am using....
1) Capture 1080i 60i HD footage into an M2T file
2) Put this M2T file on the timeline and save it as a Cineform Connect HD codec version of AVI
3) Now that it is an AVI, I can easily edit in real time - I cannot due this with any fluidity with the M2T.
4) Now I can either print back to DV Tape as HD output or save as .mpg for DVD Architect. I did this and the picture looked the same as the native HD. I did not "replace" the Cineform avi's with the original M2T because the documentation says this is not necessary when you use the Cineform Codec.


Questions:
1) Is there any loss in going back to tape directly from the AVI for the HD?
2) What are the preferred settings if I want to go directly to NTSC 24p DVD Architect Widescreen? There is a template but should I be wary of other settings in order to avoid stuttering, etc?
3) I did this and ran the footage on Windows Media Player and it stuttered. But when I previewed the mpg in DVD Architect it played just fine. Is there a known issue with Windows Media Player and 24p encoding.

This forum is great. thanks for all of your help

There's a known issue with Windows Media Player and ANY HD!! I don't use it, because it's so damned flaky - even WMV9 HD 720p won't play on any of my 4 machines - it's not funny!!

For good HD file playback, regardless of it's format (well all but the most exotic) go get Windows Media Player Classic, and VLC.

They're both free - can't get a better price than that... and if one of them can't play your file the other definitely will!!

I have an additional question to this: what if I am capturing multiple shots as seperate m2t-files.

Is there a way to easily convert a batch of m2t-files to connect-HD-AVI, and then start editing?

This instead of converting a very long m2t file to one AVI and cutting that one up into pieces.

Regards,
Eriwn

Erwin - good point. I am looking at batch rendering scripts and I know there is a website that sells something that will do this but don't know if it will render using Cineform HD Codec. That would be very sweet to keep steps to a minimum.

I still want to know if rendering directly to the 24p DVDA NTSC template will provide decent 24p if the project you're rendering is setup as 60i in the properties field. I am trying to avoid the step of converting all clips to 24p inserting 2:3:3:2 FIRST before EDITing. ph

how to put multiple m2t files on the timeline and batch render them to multiple avi's
 

Well I just found a nice solutions on how to put multiple m2t files on the time line and batch render them to multiple intermediate avi-files (with connectHD codec.

It can be done with 2 simple scripts I found online! Put these 2 scripts in the right Vegas subfolder, adjust 2 lines of code and place all your m2t clips on the timeline. The first script places markers at every new clip. The second script renders them to individual avi files. Done.

These are the steps:

1. go to http://s92274348.onlinehome.us/vegas.html and download the "Vegas 5 scripts" (at the top op the page)
2. get the following 2 scripts out of the zip-file:
- AddMarkersToEvents.js and
- RenderOnMarkers.js
3. copy them to the Vegas script folder: C:\Program Files\Sony\Vegas 6.0\Script Menu
4. you need to change 2 small things in the file RenderOnMarkers.js. To do so, open the file in notepad or some other text editor
5. replace the proper destination folder in this line: var defaultBasePath = "D:\\vmedia\\";
6. place the correct destination format you want in this line: var template = FindRenderTemplate(renderer, /NTSC DV/);
for example, I replaced it with: var template = FindRenderTemplate(renderer, /HDV 720-25p intermediate/);
You can just use the same name that is used for the templates you find in Vegas when you go to File > Render As...

7. Start Vegas, and put all your m2t clips on the timeline.
8. Go to Tools > Scripting and fire the first one: AddMarkersToEvents - it only takes a few seconds
9. After that you fire the next script RenderOnMarkers - that takes a little longer
10. done, a folder with nice avi's...

I just tested it with 4 m2t files I downloaded from this site and it works perfect. Let me know!

Regards,
Erwin

I have Vegas 6 and I use the Print to HDV Tape... selection under the tools menu. This works fine but my oh my does it take time! Any suggestions on improving speed to create the M2T file that gets printed back to tape? Or is this just a function of the computer and the codec?

I have a 3.0 ghz 1 gig Ram Pentium 4 DELL that does really well in most areas but this area - could just be the size of the file that is being created. tks ph

A 3GHz system is on the bare edge of being able to manage HDV without using a proxy, and rendertime will be slow no matter what, particularly if you're using only 2 drives on the system. This is indeed relevant to the frame size, which translates to file size.

So using Cineform Connect HD will remedy this?

thanks

Spot - I got the 3.0 Ghz because I knew I needed that for HDV. Now having said that it works great with Cineform HD Codec that comes with Vegas 6. When I render from the HD 60i project to SD (24p or 60i) for DVD the render times aren't great but ok and much better than I expected. BUT - when I go to Tools/Print to HDV Tape.... it basically creates a NEW M2T file that is then played and printed to the tape - that render takes about 50-60% longer.

The great thing about this is I can save that M2T for future prints to tape if I need to. The M2T I created is 1.097 GIG and is about 5 min 42 sec long. Does that sound about right? Is there an average? It took over an hour and a half to get this which is crazy. By the way I had lots of still pics and titles and this was not just straight video with simple crossfades etc.

So as Fred asks would purchasing the full blown Cineform Connect HD or some other product/plug in for Vegas 6.0c make the rendering back to M2T go faster? The system I have as I said is 3.0 Ghz. I have two 160 gig drives as a Raid 0 in the tower. Attached via firewire to this is a LaCie external 160 gig 7200 rpm drive that I use to capture and render video to so to keep them off the system drive. Thanks for your help. ph

p.s. I know my system is on the low-end for this but screams compared to what I upgraded from.

I hope Douglas has some experiences/views on the best approach.

I do know that rendering a m2t from a CFHD avi project for writing back to tape via ConnectHD's HDLink tool was relatively painless. Meaning - pain in the amount of render time to get the m2t, but essentially real-time recording from m2t onto tape via firewire.

Which is the most effective workflow in terms of results and/or time utilisation is something worth knowing...