Compressing after rendering
 

Hi all,


Well I've been toying with Vegas for a year now , no complain about the app here.

the thing is I always struggle when it comes to compress it afterwards. Most of my projects will be for online viewing so I usually go for WMV or Mpeg.

Now I see other people who have video on their website and let me tell you. We have practically the same vids out there , meaning that they will have a 2:30 min Mpeg video in 320x240 with a solid quality look to it while my project with the same specs end up being to wash out for my taste (figuratively speaking).

Do any of you know any good tutorial as to best encode with the widely used programs out there (media encoder, tmpegnc , vdub etc...)

They must know some secrets that I don't ,otherwise how to explain such a difference?

Thanks

Phil

My work flow for MPEG or WMV is this; render clips to AVI, put clips together for new render-set bit rate according to time (I.E. 2 hours equals XXX average bitrate with AC3 audio). As for WMV I set it for either 256 or 512 depending on what it is and how long it is and just go from there. Remember the more you squeeze it the lesser the quality especially WMV.
HTHs
Don

You should also color correct or use the other effects to adjust the video for the computer screen (which is different from outputting to a TV). Adjust out the "washed out" problem.

Phil
A few differences are gamma and setup. The web has no setup, so if you have a video that is correctly set to 7.5 IRE, and you play it in Windows Media or most other computer players, the blacks are 'stretched' which causes your image to appear to be washed out.
Glenn Chan wrote a very nice tutorial on this subject.
http://www.vasst.com/resource.aspx?i...0-90d2f8de9fc1

in many respects, evaluating web video is no different than evaluating ntsc video... the monitor must always be adjusted correctly in both cases: http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/photoshop...alibration.htm

in particular, pay close attention to: http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/calibrati...d_contrast.htm ...if you are trying that procedure on an lcd monitor, you will notice that it's impossible to get the proper black level, so how do you handle that situation in vegas? there are a lot of lcd monitors on the web these days, and no doubt most of 'em are set up way too bright.

next take a look at how some applications can tweak the gamma incorrectly: http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluatio...rror/index.htm ...so there could also be issues with how the media player you are using is affecting the gamma that you see in the video clip... in particular, i can see gamma differences between clips embedded in windows media player on a page, vs. full-screen viewing of those exact same clips... i can provide a url if you want to see it on one of my sites.

so it's all very complicated... i currently frame-serve 'net video encoding off of the vegas timeline to procoder, how does that affect the gamma? if you export an avi first, then encode it seperately with the windows media encoder, how is the gamma affected? what if you use sorenson squeeze? etc...

ultimately i think that every situation could be different... but one thing you can count on is that you should never put mpeg1 or mpeg2 video on the web, it's way too inefficient... if you were referring to mpeg4, make sure that it's h.264, not the generic qt mpeg4 that's been around for years.

Hi all ,


Well that's a nice surprise , I just got in from work and found all those replies.

Thanks Spot , I will read what Glenn has to say. I shoot a lot of nightclub video right now so black has got to stay black otherwise ...well you know.

Dan: Yes I was referring to Mpeg4 , in your opinion what is the best software out there to encode in mpeg4.?

This post was a bit pre-emptive , I am in the middle of a project right now.I will apply what I will read from the links you included. Later on this week I will post the project on my website and let you know

Thank you for your time

Phil

**********************

First edit ..... WOW !!!!

Thank you Spot for leading to Glenn tutorial , I can't believe I didn't use that before , live an learn I guess. Couple of questions though.

1:How do I know my cam got "superwhites" , looking at the waveform doesn't really make it clear.

2: Cranking down the "input end" really puts up the number of pixel , is this normal behavior ?

Thanks

the only mpeg4 that i would ever encode is h.264, and i'd use the nero encoder for that... for the old-skool mpeg4, like the mac guys use, take a look at sorenson squeeze.

be careful of that studio rgb to computer rgb setting in vegas... it can blow the highs out real easy, but it could also be a good idea for dark nightclub footage.

Totally concur.
Nero is easy to frameserve to, and provides for very pretty encodes. IMO, they've got the best h.264 encoding going in the PC world, and it's darn fast, too.
http://www.vasst.com/search.aspx?text=Frameserve has an article on frameserving from Vegas to Nero. It's quite detailed, and should get anyone there very quickly.

Well I've heard about framserving but after reading the tutorial that you sent me to Spot I found that it looks quite easier than I thought. I am still editing so the render will have to wait but this is very useful information , thank you gentleman.

Dan : Glenn does mention about studio rgb→computer rgb but thanks for the heads up.

Again I will let you know about the progress ini this post

Thank you for your time

1- I assume you're using Sony DV codec, which is the Vegas default. The article covers this.

If you follow the article, take a look at the waveform display. If you see dots above 100, then your camera records superwhites.
Or you can look at the histogram (under video scopes), which isn't affected by video scopes settings. Anything above 235 is superwhite.

2- I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If you move the "input end" slider down, that is like increasing exposure.

I hope that helps.

Hi Glenn,

Well to be honest with you I am not sure if I use Sony DV codec , I just got Vegas 6 and can't find the codec choices anywhere in the Preferences window???

I just saw your video and WOW !!! , what a great job , I am sure you made new friends since then HIHIHI.

Did you write any other tutorials other than the one I know , anything on color correction perhaps.

Thanks

Phil

Hi Dan,

I would caution you about all of the information on that site as some of it contains inaccuracies (in particular, when it comes to the whole gamma issue). see http://www.poynton.com/notes/Timo/Concerning_Timo.html

As far as the gamma differences, I'd be interested in that url. I wouldn't know where the error comes from, but I would assume that WMP would decode the same way whether in a web page or in full screen. It may be that your video card is changing the colors of the video overlay.

Phillipe:

Sorry if the screenshot in the article is not very clear. You need to scroll down in the preferences window to find those settings.

By default, Vegas 6 will use the Sony DV codec.

I too use vegas & I was depressed about the quality of my latest 3hr DVD so I tried tmpegnc. I am extremely happy with the results. If you haven't tried this encoder give it a try. I think the results are immediately noticed that is after the render. :)

Hi Richard ,


Well you might want to reconsider because what Glenn wrote about Nero recode is most invaluable. Tmpegnc only compress in mpeg1 and mpeg2 , from what I've seen so far mpeg 4 is way more impressive in turn of compression/quality and it looks so easy to use.

Well here's a quick update.

I just learned that my client wants his project on a DVD to be projected on a television.

Problem is , I don't have a television and obviously don't have time to buy one until thursday.

Now , if I understood Glenn's tutorial correctly I will have to leave the 7.5 IRE setting ON in the waveform window because DVD player display black starting at 7.5.

Also , i know I am shooting in the dark here, but which broadcast color settings should be best suited to ensure proper display on a television set.

Thanks guys

Phil

the point i made is that using that studio rgb→computer rgb conversion can blow the highlight details right out of your picture, which was not mentioned in glenn's otherwise well-written faq... it can also darken the lower end of gamma spectrum to the point where a lot of visual detail is lost in a sea of black... i'm talking about viewing the clips on a computer monitor, of course.

so don't run around automatically applying it to everything that you put on the web... test the clip before you encode it.

a related question along those lines is whether or not things like the windows media encoder performs a studio rgb→computer rgb conversion on the footage... vegas will read wmv files in the timeline, for purposes of testing the 0-255 range with the waveform monitor.

btw, many thanks to dse and glenn for providing us with resources like that.

glenn, here is a url to do a visual comparison on the embedded vs. full screen gamma ranges... now that i'm looking at it on an uncalibrated monitor, i don't see a lot of differences? http://www.dragracingtv.com/vw-drag-racing.html

timo is rather, um, controversial, lol, but the main thing to get from his website is the sections on monitor calibration and test patterns... there is no better site on the 'net for doing that... his downloadable test pattern files will check out perfectly on the vegas waveform monitor, at their native 800x600 resolution, and they are far better than anything you'll find in vegas, for the purposes of setting up computer monitors.

Well, it's clear that I need to do some reading, and I hope I'm not too late for this thread, but I have a question about this Mpeg4 thing.

I have started posting for rocketboom.com and they are heavily into the mac world. They like to have things done in mpeg4. Their recommendation was 3ivx 4.5 for encoding. I have tried using it and can't really make it work right at all. I'm totally up for trying Nero - do I need to get the pro version?

Last night I worked like a beaver trying all kinds of settings with 3ivx - finally I used WMV set for 3megs, 256 kbs for the audio, and sent the piece off. It really looked great, and I guess my question is can you get good looking quicktime files out of Vegas? I would love to see some comparisions between similarly encoded video - same playback rates - same material. I really don't want to buy an apple just to do mpeg4. I have no desire to leave Vegas. It's just too fine.

Milt

Opps, I went to Spot's article, and it appears this entire discussion is about High Def!! Wow, I really didn't get that. I guess I thought that we were talking about webcasting. I think I'll reread the thread.

Milt

this thread is not about hi-def.

nero h.264 will blow the doors off of anything that you can do with quicktime in vegas... i think that you can download nero to test it out, it's only $65 to buy it?

Thanks! I'm going to do just that - you know last night I went to Wikipedia and read up on it and finally got that this thread was indeed not really about Hi Def.

I also went to the Nero site and found out more. Yep, looks like a must have kinda deal.

take care,
Milt Lee

i bet that a lot of what we have been talking about here is applicable to hi-def, tho.

if you look at the footage in that link i posted a couple of threads up, it's full-frame 640x480, 30 fps, @ 418 kbps... the video portion was encoded at ~370 kbps... it's right on the edge of marginal quality, which is how you want to do it for the web.

i'd guess that you should be able to match or exceed the quality of the video portion of those files with nero h.264... the audio, however, will not be as good as wmv 9 audio... you can also buy quicktime pro, which has h.264 capability, and it may be accessible via the vegas timeline, don't know what the quality is like tho.

be sure and always choose two-pass encoding for both video and audio, whenever possible, and preferably vbr as well.

Philippe the only time you need to worry about 7.5 IRE setup is if you are going to record to an old analogue tape deck. If your source is digital video it is at the equivalent of 0 IRE and while in the digital domain should stay there. That means editing and output to other digital formats including DVD. Digital decks and DVD players apply setup on their analogue output to TV's. In rgb terms the TV range is really 16 to 235 so computer graphics need to bear this in mind and not use super blacks or super whites though most modern TV's will happily play back these levels without much problems. Don't apply 7.5 setup to your DVD or it will look very washed out.

Ron Evans

Thanks Ron ,


Now that makes it perfectly clear :)

Dan : Thank you for pointing me to Nero Recode , I just got it today and from the first couple of experiment I just did I can already tell you that it succeedds in almost every aspects.

Spot: Well my computer doesn't have the same specs as yours so I can't really say that it is fast . One hour to recode a one minute video with two-pass turned on. But the quality is there though .

I ended up with a 14 meg file with the original resolution(720x480) and it looks stunning. It is impossible to compare this one with my previous projects. In fact I will re-encode them through Nero , it will save space on my server and the quality will be better , it is really the best of both worlds. My feeling about the "washing out" on my images is now gone

Thank you guys for all your time.

I will fiddle a bit more with the program but once my final test is done and on my website I will post a link in this thead.

Until then have a great week-end.

Phil

I'm going to get Nero too, based on what I've heard here. I can't seem to get a trial version right now. I think they've been swamped, but I'm going to buy it sight unseen, based on my previous experience with Nero.

Milt

You won't regret Nero, particularly for the H.264 stuff. For MPEG, frankly...I don't know why you'd not be happy with Vegas but to each his own, I guess.

Well, it's late and I need to get to bed, but briefly, whenever I've tried to encode in Quicktime, it always looks strange - and the biggest problem I have is the sound - which generally sucks when I encode for QT.

Now the reality is I have never been told the most wonderful settings to use, so it may very well be that I just don't know what I'm doing. I'll admit that I've never gone to school to study these things, and all my information is pretty much trial and error.

If any of you have a great setting in Vegas for mpeg4 - or something that will play in Quicktime - I would LOVE to hear it.

thanks,
Milt

go back and re-read the wmv settings i just posted... you want 640x480 for computers, not 720x480, because the latter is the rectangular pixel size used in ntsc video, while computers use square pixels(640x480).

on paper, there is no resolution loss with a change to square pixels.

nero h.264 should work fine in the quicktime player... no need to use vegas mpeg4, although it would be nice to not have to export the avi first, in order to use nero.

Hi Dan ,


Thanks for the advice. I wouldn't post anything in 720x480 anyway because of the high bandwidth usage it produces , this was merely a test. Most of my projects ended up in 320x240 because my clients want to reduce bandwidth costs also.

I am not sure I follow you when you say you had to render to AVI first . With the tutorial that Spot sent me to I didn't render at all. I created a frameserve file in Vegas and opened up Nero and it did the rest. Worked like a charm.


Milt:

Well I didn't go to school either . Camera , editing , encoding etc ... It's all learned on my own and occasionnally with the superb help from boards like this one. So go ahead and try. Personnally I wouldn't waste my time with Quicktime. The h.264 you will get using Nero Recode can be read by any players including QT.

I just followed the tutorial and everything was fine . I still experiment with it but with the tutorial all the basics are covered , the rest is pretty much to suit you own tastes and particularities.

Phil

It's all good. BTW, I'm posting stuff on Rocketboom, and for that I need to send the larger file - they are sending stuff to TIVO now, and need the higher res. But when I send stuff to my vlog, I use the 320 settings.

Thanks all for the info.

Milt

i haven't yet tried frameserving from vegas to nero, thanks for the tip.

you should be able to shave a good 100kbps or more by cutting the frame size in half... it's maybe a little less efficient than encoding a full frame... another thing that really helps is to cut the frame rate down, typically by multiples of 2... if the content allows it, you can really save some bandwidth by doing that.

Well I didn't have any problem so far with Recode except when I try to resize the image in Recode to 640x480 , it crashes when the second pass starts. I read in the Recode tutorial provided by Spot that is is better to resize in Vegas anyway . Well if I resize it in Vegas there is a slight problem , for some reason one of my event doesn't quite follow. Here is a screenshot to better explain myself. The cover disappear and the text event replicates the title and stay while the cover fades away.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4750/res0fw.jpg

Somehow my text event gets WAY too small. I am not sure why this is happening, any thoughts. After that I will be ready to post my results

Thanks

Well, thanks to all your input I am done with this one. I want to say that the compression to h.264 took a bit of experimentation but ended up with great results.

So to check it out click on the link below

http://www.production24fps.com/videoenglish.php

It is the latest one, the Nightlife magazine one.

To show that all your input actually helped me learned I posted the same video as it would have been if I hadn't started this thread, I would've use the same compression schemes and woulnd't have known the existence on "Levels".

Without levels the result is dramatically different. You can view it by clicking on the lin below.

http://www.production24fps.com/test.php

Just click on the image of Perrier at the bottom.

Any feedback will be as always greatly appreciated.

Thanks again

Phil

ps: Glenn, did you write any tutorials on your color correction technique, your video is simply amazing and I would love to master colo correction as you do.Thanks

**********EDIT************

well I spoke too soon, I just saw your new signature . I can't wait for your tips and tricks :)

What video did you see? I have probably written something on how the color in that particular video was achieved.

Yes, it's coming. :)

Hi Glenn,


Well I saw the clip for the female singer, she sings with her band in a bar, I still have the file, it's name is "ab-comparison.mov"


Thanks

the first clip at that url(512?.mp4) barely played on my older pc, which is an amd 1800(?) cpu... i was seeing about a frame every 5 seconds.

the same footage in wmv(your test clip) played fine, even tho it was probably twice as big.

you may have to select the simple qt mode in nero, which disables some bidirectional playback capability, because the qt player may not be able to handle it... h.264
definitely requires more cpu to decode than wmv.

Hi Dan,


Are you referring to this option in nero: "bidirectionnal prediction". I don't see anything else that fits your description.

It is strange since my computer can play it back fine and my computer is much older than yours.

Thanks

Phil

Phillipe, I have information on how I achieved the color correction for that particular clip ( http://www.glennchan.info/ab-comparison.mov ). Looking back on it I made some mistakes, but nevermind that!

Here are the notes...

The information is a little old and may have some mistakes in it.

Hi Glenn,


This seems to be wonderful info. I just took a quick look and it seems pretty thorough. Thanks for putting it up.

Did you see my clip? Did it work for you or was there any problem?


Phil