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Old November 4th, 2011, 03:32 AM   #1
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MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

Hey gang, im getting into 3D and have some questions, maybe someone here can shed some light.

Using JVC 3D camera
I'm shooting in the MVC format and not SIDE BY SIDE.

So far the camera is performing great- the only issue is that the MVC file types dont playback on the tv's. The tv's dont upconvert the image like they do with SIDE BY SIDE.

Anyone have a solution how to get MVC to play in 3D

i've exported is as every file type i could and nothing.

Also, what software if you guys know, is the best to upconvert the MVC to a SIDE BY SIDE image?

I looked into that neo3D(cinefrom) but i dont know if it can do that

thanks in advance

Sat
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Old November 4th, 2011, 09:05 AM   #2
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

There was some discussion about this last May, I don't remember how to link in another post properly but look back some for "sony td10 3d camera editing suggestions" for a similar discussion. At least it seems to be very close.

Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions
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Old November 4th, 2011, 11:37 AM   #3
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

Saturnin,

MVC (multi-view coding) is a subset of the H264 codec. Here is some info on Wiki;
Multiview Video Coding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically, what happens is that two data streams L & R eyes are recorded to one frame. How this is accomplished is that the Left data stream is recorded at full resolution and the Right data stream is what's called a Delta stream meaning that it only reflects the differences between it and and the Left stream. In decompression, this missing data is filled in from the Left data to make two complete data streams.

I'm not sure I understand why you can't play back the footage. If you are trying to do it directly from the camera, although I don't have experience with the JVC or Panasonic 3D cameras that record to this format, I do have a good amount of experience with Sony cameras that do. They will output through the HDMI connection a Side by Side which your 3D HDTV will recognize as 3D and display. I would be very surprised to find that JVC and Panasonic cameras don't do this also. Sometimes you need to "tell" your 3D HDTV that it is seeing a 3D data stream.

If you are trying to post produce MVC footage, then you are in an entirely different ballpark. What I have had to do is break open the MVC files and separate them into discreet L/R streams, then use either Tim Dashwood's FCP/AE plug in, or Cineform Neo 3D to edit them. It can take some steps to do, but it can be done. With the Sony footage, they provide you with a program called Content Management Utility that will do this to their footage. I don't know if it will work with other manufacturers MVC files but might be worth a try.
Sony | Micro Site NXCAM & AVCHD

Another program is also free and called MVC>AVI found here;
3dtv.at - MVC to AVI Converter
Once your files are AVI it's no trick to convert them to MOV for use on Mac systems.

I have had issues with this software and the Sony MVC files, but others report that it works well with the JVC MVC files.

Hope this helps.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 09:49 AM   #4
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

"So far the camera is performing great- the only issue is that the MVC file types dont playback on the tv's. The tv's dont upconvert the image like they do with SIDE BY SIDE. "

I assume you are talking about the JVC GS-TD1, don't know what TV you use. I looked up the spec for the JVC and it is technically very poor - very "folksy", But it does suggest that the camcorder plays back 3D on 3DTV over HDMI, so it should have HDMI 1.4 or HDMI1.4(a) output interface. The MVC/side-by-side has very little to do with upconverting(?), it simply implies whether you will eventually get a full resolution or half resolution worth pixels on your TV. If your TV is really a 3DTV, it should auto-sense the 3D video and you should be able to the 3D output. If it doesn't do so, you should have a manual 3D user interface menu on the TV somewhere to select 3D input mode. If it doesn't do it, you don't have a good 3DTV.

If you have a 3D side-by-side or above-below, you basically compress the L/R as 2D. This is preferable for broadcast, because it used standard 2D bandwidth, and they can use standard H/W equipment, standard MPEG2 or AVC codecs. They just need to add some metadata to the streams. 1.3 HDMI standards and cables will work, as well as the 1.4a for these (half res) video packing modes. If both pieces - source (BD, STB) and TV are 3D, HDMI1.4a will be most likely used, headers will accompany the source pixels and TV will "set itself" up for the proper playback mode.

MVC is an extension of AVC, and basically the right video stream consists of only P and B frames, slaved on the occasional I frames on the left video stream. User doesn't need to understand this. It simply allows for a higher compression, so that both left and right frames can be compressed at a full resolution, not half res as SBS or AB (above). Because of bandwidth and the associated existent standards, electronic complexities and costs of equipment, the frame rate have been limited by the HDMI 1.4(a) to 24/48 Hz. This mode is referred to as "frame-packed" mode as well. Both devices have to comply with HDMI 1.4 or 1.4a to use it. Basically the devices have to exchange two full frames in one traditional frame time period. That is obviously taxing the bandwidth and associated issues, hence the 24/48Hz limit. Therefore when people complain why don't they support 60P on 3D - they do but only at half res. Some TVs might support 60Hz for the frame packed mode, but they don't have to, and it is not in the spec.

Editing these video streams is somewhat different and lot more complex issue, specially with respect to the MVC.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 09:44 PM   #5
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

The JVC GS-TD1 is hardly a poor or "folksy" 3D camcorder. It has excellent image quality and a great many very useful manual and semi-automatic controls. It's a very capable 3D shooter that can yield some remarkable results. The only reason I'm upgrading to the HMZ1 next week is that it has a 24p shooting mode.

I've edited TD1 footage extensively in Sony Vegas Pro, and I'm working on a long form 3D video about the Missouri Botanical Garden.

Video from the TD1 plays back in its original pristine quality from the camcorder's HDMI output to virtually any current model 3D TV. There's no conversion to side by side. My JVC RS40 projector identifies the signal as 60i frame packing, but my Samsung 3D TVs have no trouble with the signal either.

Here's my simplified Vegas workflow:

1. Split the MVC files to left/right streams using Peter Wimmer's MVCtoAVI utility and a Cineform codec.
2. Mux the files into Cineform intermediates and perform corrections in Neo FirstLight.
3. Import into Vegas and edit normally.
4. I use the Yadif plug-in with Vegas to de-interlace clips with especially difficult motion (which can be a lot of the clips). Converting the camcorder's 60i video to 24p 3D Blu-ray can be problematic, since Vegas (without help) does not handle de-interlacing very well. The Sony TD10 and the JVC TD1 have this same issue.

The results for me have been spectacular. Granted, my video does not contain a great many "problem" clips (ones with lots of fast motion or lateral movement). That's why I'm upgrading to the pro version of the JVC. It has a 24p shooting mode which will eliminate the need to de-interlace the video for future projects with more challenging motion scenes.

There's a great deal of discussion about these topics over at AVSForum. Check out 3D Central. There are threads on the TD1, Sony Vegas and the new kid on the block - Cyberlink PowerDirector 10. If you want to, you can import your files into PD10 and convert them to side by side half, side by side full, top/bottom half/full, etc. It's also another way to split the files without using MVCtoAVI. It's also the only way currently available to make 3D Blu-ray menus. It's buggy, because it's so new, but it's fast and easy, not to mention the fact that it saves tons of hard drive space over the Cineform alternative. Motion is still a problem, but Yadif should help there, too.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 11:19 PM   #6
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

I wasn't very clear in the post. I meant to say say the SPEC - the document on JVC web site - was poor, I couldn't tell which revision of HDMI or which resolutions/frame rates were supported. I cannot judge the camcorder, but I don't doubt it is great. I didn't mean to insult anyone - tried to help. Furthermore I specifically answered the question, dealing with TV display formats.The original poster asked about TV display.
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Old November 6th, 2011, 07:22 PM   #7
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

Hi Sat.

Even i don't have any 3D camcorder yet, i have some experience with 3D BDs.

Before converting MVC to SBS you may want to give it a go with Peter Wimmer's Stereoscopic Player.
It uses Core AVC-Core MVC decoder in his application. (Core Codec supplies Core MVC decoder as SDK to 3rd parties..) Dunno it's gonna work with your camera's MVC files.

In any case if it doesn't work we have some experience in converting 3D BDs to SBS.

1) Extracting left and right videos and audio via eac3to.

2) Remuxing left video into an mkv or m2ts container via MKVMergeGui or TSMuxer.

3) Decoding right video via free MVC Decoder (the unique one) and re-encoding to h264 and remuxing into an mkv or m2ts container.(you have to decode it and re-encode again since you can never watch it as is.)

4) Watching it as SBS with Stereoscopic Player with a similar aviscript:

Code:
vidL=DirectshowSource("C:\3D-ex\left.m2ts",audio=true)
vidR=DirectshowSource("C:\3D-ex\right.m2ts",audio=false)
StackHorizontal(vidL, vidR)
Or watching directly: Leave the right and left videos seperately after remuxing and open Stereoscopic Player - File - Open Left and Right file, select the 2 streams and check "Use audio track from left file".

5) Or making an SBS using x264 encoder directly or over Adam's tool.


Guide to convert BD 3D to 3D Left+Right Stereoscopic and Anaglyph - Doom9's Forum

Doom9's Forum - View Single Post - Guide to convert BD 3D to 3D Left+Right Stereoscopic and Anaglyph

Doom9's Forum - View Single Post - Any free MVC encoder yet?

Doom9's Forum - View Single Post - Any free MVC encoder yet?

Any free MVC encoder yet? - Page 16 - Doom9's Forum


Or you can use Multiavchd:

Guide to convert BD 3D to 3D Left+Right Stereoscopic and Anaglyph - Page 11 - Doom9's Forum


_ _ _ _

Last edited by Seref Halulu; November 6th, 2011 at 08:25 PM.
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Old November 6th, 2011, 08:07 PM   #8
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavel Houda View Post
I wasn't very clear in the post. I meant to say say the SPEC - the document on JVC web site - was poor, I couldn't tell which revision of HDMI or which resolutions/frame rates were supported. I cannot judge the camcorder, but I don't doubt it is great. I didn't mean to insult anyone - tried to help. Furthermore I specifically answered the question, dealing with TV display formats.The original poster asked about TV display.
My bad. It was a language problem with the pronoun antecedent of "it." :D I understand what you were trying to say now.

JVC often doesn't get a lot of love in some circles, and although I understand that, the TD1 is capable of producing some pretty impressive images. I'm looking forward to getting the HMZ1 and shooting in 24p.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 11:34 AM   #9
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

With 60i MVC 3D files I've had no trouble with the usual tools like MVC to AVI Converter. However, that's not been the case with Sony NX3D1 generated 23.98 MVC 3D files as there have been a multitude of problems processing those.

Let us know when you get your 24P 3D camera up and working as to how you fare on this issue.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 01:15 PM   #10
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

If there's a possibility I may run into major issues using 24p files in my workflow with the HMZ1, I'll wait to find out. I love the TD1, and the main reason for an upgrade is to be able to leave the "interlace" issue in my rear view mirror.

Hopefully, Tim will be able to shed some light on that when he finishes his comparative review.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 06:54 PM   #11
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

I just got an e-mail from Peter and he says if 24p is not working in MVCtoAVI, he'll make it work. He wants a sample file. Anyone have one? I'll browse around here and see if I can locate one.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 11:08 AM   #12
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

thanks for all the replies. I'm going to read through all of them

the JVC 3D Everio shoots in 59fps and not 24, i tried the MVC to AVI converter and would appear that it takes the 59fps file and converts it to 29- is that correct? the footage is interlaced and choppy and lower quality than the MVC file.

i could not find an option in the MVCtoAVi converter that will allow me to set my frame rate. Unless i'm doing it wrong.

i've tried all the options in the MVCtoAvi and cant seem to find the right one that will split the MVC file into the two and it will look just as good as the source material- its always interlaced etc

i do belive that in the very near future the side by side format will be old news and MVC will be the new one used.

i'll have some more questions soon and might msg some of you guys directly

thanks again
Sat
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Old December 6th, 2011, 12:45 PM   #13
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

Saturnin, pardon me if I'm being overly instructive here, but 29.97 is 59.94.
29.97 is the Frame Rate (2X 29.97 = 59.94) of 59.94 which is the Fields Rate of the footage. It's confusing because 29.97 can also be the frame rate of 30P progressive footage.

I don't think MVC>AVI is trying to de-interlace or convert your 60i footage into progressive but you need to click the Configure button on the codec you are selecting to make sure those settings are correct for your footage. In MVC>AVI that's File/Settings/Video Encoder. There is a progressive check box in there for some codecs like Cineform, so make sure it isn't checked.

I've had no problems with MVC>AVI converter with 60i/59.94 footage from Sony TD10, my problems with the program are with 23.98 footage from the Sony NX3D1 which the software's author has acknowledged are not working and I have to go the Sony software route to split out L/R.

I'm also totally unfamiliar with the JVC camera so I'm sorry I can't be more footage-specific about that. Doesn't JVC give you any software to split the MVC L/R out?

Last edited by Bruce Schultz; December 6th, 2011 at 07:56 PM.
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Old December 16th, 2011, 01:53 PM   #14
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

^ ok great, i will look into it - i still dont know what the best option of export form MVCtoAVI is - i need the one with most quality. Does the trial have some options that are locked? And when you buy it, it unlocks some stuff?
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Old December 16th, 2011, 02:04 PM   #15
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Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!

thanks :) guys

Last edited by Saturnin Kondratiew; December 16th, 2011 at 03:01 PM.
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