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Old April 18th, 2006, 09:04 AM   #16
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I think 24p in a 60i timline is over rated anyways. Its the look of VHS movie tapes and so forth. Why are you so set in doing this? Have you consider 30p? or true 24p? instead of 60i 24p?
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Old April 18th, 2006, 09:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Greyson
Here is the "C" frame rebuild from trying to extract 24 frames from a 2:3 29.97 stream. MOST users are experiencing this FYI...

http://www.members.aol.com/ashvid/Cframe.jpg
What the heck did you do this in?

Here's a C frame from 2:3 footage:

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6...imotor74lu.jpg

Vegas. PP 2.0 has identical results.
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Old April 18th, 2006, 10:17 PM   #18
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Over-rated? 24p with 3:2 is universal, should be no issues.

David, that is a 2:3 "C" frame as interpreted in PP 1.5, it sees it as a 2:3:3:2 "C" frame and does not process it properly.

Adobe confirmed this today on the phone with me and recommended some 3rd party app to solve the problem. When I asked if PremPro 2.0 solved the issue, the tech said "I think so" So can you force Prem Pro 2.0 to interpret footage as 2:3?



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Old April 19th, 2006, 01:29 AM   #19
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The good news it's only $199 for the upgrade to 2.0..:)
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Old April 19th, 2006, 06:13 AM   #20
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You don't have to force it. It already does it. Download the demo and see for yourself.

Or just use Vegas, if you already have it.
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Old April 19th, 2006, 01:56 PM   #21
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So if I dumped 29.97 footage shot with 2:3 pulldown in a 29.97 timeline, I can edit natively without recompressing? If so, that is what I want to hear. Still absolutely unforgiveable they have not fixed this in 1.5 Thanks...


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Old April 19th, 2006, 02:15 PM   #22
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Ash,

Do you have After Effects? It is much better at getting file formats and flags correct, and it gives you more options for interpreting footage.

If the Premiere capture is getting the flags wrong, try importing the file into After Effects, manually Interpreting the footage correctly, and exporting the file with whatever pulldown you want. You'll take a recompression hit (unless you go uncompressed), but likely the flags will be correct and Premiere will be able to handle it.

There is a long history of unresolved issues with Premiere. I think you'll also find that when exporting a movie from a 24p timeline to DV-AVI, your only option is 2:3:3:2. It doesn't even offer standard 2:3 pulldown. Again, another task I switch over to After Effects to complete.

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Old April 19th, 2006, 02:15 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Greyson
So if I dumped 29.97 footage shot with 2:3 pulldown in a 29.97 timeline, I can edit natively without recompressing? If so, that is what I want to hear. Still absolutely unforgiveable they have not fixed this in 1.5 Thanks...


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In both Vegas and PP 2.0, yes. In that respect, the two operate identically.

If you edit in Vegas, there's no reason at all not to edit in 24p. In PP, there are export issues, as Josh points out.
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Old April 19th, 2006, 10:11 PM   #24
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After Effects wont help on the import... no matter what you do, Premiere sees the 29.97 stream as 2:3:3:2 removes the pulldown to native 24P. So to make a DVD of this project, I need to import the project into After Effects (I have 6.5) and make is 29.97 with 2:3 pulldown?



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Old April 20th, 2006, 06:42 AM   #25
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Ash, we've given you several possible solutions here, all within your reach. You have Vegas and can use that (and that's what I'd recommend). You can download the PP 2.0 demo (free) and see if it solves your problem -- you can't render an MPEG from it (licensing), but you can render AVIs with 2:3:3:2 pulldown, even from 2:3 footage, so you're covered there.

You can also use either Vegas or the PP 2.0 demo to capture your footage, and both will do so as 60i files with no pulldown removal -- then take it into AE if that's what you want to do.

PP 1.5 doesn't work for you; that's well-established. Use one of the solutions that will.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 07:57 AM   #26
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I think Ash has a legitimate complaint. With all due respect to Mr. Jimerson, 24P with 3:2 cadence and 24Pa using 2:3:3:2 are not the same coming out of the camera. The XL2 and some other cameras give you a choice of using both methods of recording 24p because there is a difference.

I haven't used anything but a trial version of Vegas because I have already invested in the Mac platform and FCP for editing work. FCP gives you the option of removing 24P advanced pulldown via a menu selection.

Traditionally, 3:2 is meant for 24p material that has to be telecined for playback on NTSC tv as it 'fits' the spec easier. 24p advanced, or 2:3:3:2 allows for extraction of 24 'complete' frames from a 60i stream without the need to 'fake' a frame by combining fields.

In the end, I agree with the advice to Ash to download the 2.0 trial version to ascertain whether or not his complaints have been addressed.

regards,

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Old April 20th, 2006, 08:17 AM   #27
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I know there's a difference between the pulldown cadences, Greg; I said so. I only said that recording in 2:3 pulldown does not keep the footage from being "true 24p." I know FCP has all sorts of pains in the butt when dealing with 2:3 pulldown (for editing in 24p), but not every NLE does.

But what you say about the difference in removing pulldown isn't quite accurate. To remove 2:3:3:2 pulldown, you're still combining fields, it's only that the field order is such that it's much more efficient. Fields 1 and 2 become frame A. Fields 3 and 4 become frame B. Fields 7 and 8 become frame C. Fields 9 and 10 become frame D. Fields 5 and 6 create a mismatched fame in between frames B and C, and it can simply be dropped. Efficient.

Removing 2:3 pulldown isn't actually that different -- fields 1 and 2 become frame A; fields 3 and 4 become frame B; Fields 9 and 10 become frame D. Fields 5-8 are an inefficient jumble of frames B and C, no question, but an NLE which knows what it's doing -- like Vegas or PP 2.0 -- can reconstruct frame C with almost no quality loss (see the frame I posted above).

Advanced pulldown also takes advantage of frame-based compression, but rest assured, it's split into fields in the 60i stream every bit as much as standard pulldown is; it's simply better for reconstructing the original frames.

So yeah, if you're going to edit in 24p, use 2:3:3:2 pulldown, and I'd never recommend otherwise. But this thread wasn't about that, and I wasn't addressing it. I was addressing the myth that somehow 2:3 pulldown keeps footage from being "true 24p." It does not.

Greg, if you want to see how Vegas handles 24p capture/timelines, check out the tutorial at the link in my sig.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 05:19 PM   #28
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I finally figured out a workaround, VERY annoying but figured it out. You cannot have ANY clip start on the "C" frame or the entire duration of that clip will look like crap. You cannot output to dv tape or to DV.AVI in ANY mode unless every clip is re-rendered via an effect. I WAS able to output a 24p file with the Adobe Media Encoder and make a DVD with that file. It looks pretty good with progressive playback, very good actually but it is total junk if you do not have a 480p TV or prog scan DVD player. Oh well, lesson learned... back to FCP for me!

Sorry David but I just dont accept that upgrading is a fair solution. Adobe knows this is a major issue and instead of addressing it, you can BUY the solution to the problem for $200. SILLY!



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Old April 20th, 2006, 06:49 PM   #29
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They did address it, Ash. They improved the capabilities for PP 2.0.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 07:01 PM   #30
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That is only a good enough response if the upgrade is free. Otherwise, Adobe should fix this bug as a patch to the existing release. If you think upgrading is good enough, then Adobe has you exactly where they want you.

Adobe has a long history of this. I still use them because I grew up on the interface, but it's not pretty. And why can't PP1.5 output true 23.976 AVI files? AE6 can do it, but PP1.5 cannot. When I move files around, I need to output QT to get true 23.976 so my audio will sync, then convert that back to AVI in AE. Bad. I hope that's fixed in PP2.0.
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