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AVCHD Format Discussion
Inexpensive High Definition H.264 encoding to DVD, Hard Disc or SD Card.


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Old November 29th, 2008, 01:43 PM   #136
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Glad to help you Juan!

One other possibility is that the trial version isn't version 2.2.2.7.c. If it's any earlier, then SVRT for AVCHD will not be present. Cyberlink was a bit deceptive in the way they initially boasted of AVCHD smart rendering, but it only recently has been added.

It's really hard for me to tell how Corel will deal with this bug in VideoStudio X2 Pro which Peter and others discovered. Although there are a lot of people now complaining about it on their forum, some of us using non-default camera settings never noticed it. Since Corel only took over ownership from Ulead fairly recently, there is also some question about the continuity of support going forward. I do not recall ever seeing it in version 11.5, and it may only be a problem with the X2 release for all I know.

The bitrate of your HF10 is exactly the same as my HF100, and all the smart rendering programs including Corel, Cyberlink, Nero, and ArcSoft handle it with no problems. The newer HF11 higher bitrate of 24 Mbits/sec may be an issue and until I get a higher bitrate camera and do some testing myself, I do not yet have an opinion on this higher rate.

Hope I have been of help to you.

Larry
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Old November 30th, 2008, 01:56 PM   #137
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Juan, you may need to change the Aspect Ratio in the view menu to 16:9 in order for the 1920x1080 option to show up.

I bought the full version of powerdirector, and I am noticing a quality loss, even when I set the max bit rate to 20K. (For some reason it doesn't allow you to set the avg bit rate above 14.8K which is less than the HF100's max of 17k - maybe this is the problem). It seems to be smart rendering the whole project but I noticed it takes much longer than VSX2.

I think I will stick with my Nero Vision to VSX2 workflow given that the PowerDirector video quality seems slightly degraded.

Larry, do you notice degradation in PD? It's most noticeable on panning shots where some pixelation shows up.
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Old November 30th, 2008, 05:07 PM   #138
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Peter,

I think you may have Power Director misconfigured. My experience from comparing the three smart rendered outputs from VSX2 Pro, Nero Vision, and Power Director 7 Ultimate for a 3 minute 17 second video are as follows:

Corel: 79 seconds (2.5 time real time)
Power Director: 37 seconds (5.3 times real time)
Nero: 21 seconds (9.4 times real time)

(You will see in the speeds above why I absolutely LOVE smart rendering!)

Note that in my case it is Corel which takes the longest time by a factor of over 2X compared to Cyberlink Power Director.

In all 3 cases, the output file is 100% smart rendered, and is merely a rewrite of the original camcorder file with slight changes to headers and other non-video data.

The file sizes, just for reference, are:

Original file: 381,024 KB
Corel: 381,384KB
Power Director 7: 380,459KB
Nero: 382,794KB

I do NOT see any pixellation whatsoever, and strongy suspect that you are NOT smart rendering and also that your playback system which does, in some instances, stutter, may also be at the root cause of this pixellation.

Feel free to email me a short clip via the method we previously used if you want me to see if pixellation occurs, but it is appears that some setting in your configuration is not correct if PD7 is taking longer and also producing such effects, since the smart rendering should NOT cause any structural change to the file or its GOPs.

Larry
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Old November 30th, 2008, 07:49 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Holzel View Post
Juan, you may need to change the Aspect Ratio in the view menu to 16:9 in order for the 1920x1080 option to show up.
Thanks Peter, I spent 3 hrs trying to figure that out, I bought the full version of PD 7 Ultra too.

Larry, in my testing I'm using a 17 seconds clip, so far my experience is as follow:

1. Clip repeated 3 times, NO transitions, NO titles - 100% smart rendering, extremely fast.

2. Clip repeated 3 times, transitions included, No titles - smart rendering present only in the first clip, time elapsed (mm:ss): 02:37

3. Clip repeated 3 times, transitions included, title include in the 1st clip - I'm absolutely sure NO smart rendering at all, time elapsed (mm:ss): 03:56

hopefully this is just a configuration problem, otherwise the program would be useless to edit AVCHD from Canon cameras.
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Old December 1st, 2008, 09:03 AM   #140
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Juan,

I did your 3 trials, and found smart rendering to take place in ***ALL 3*** cases, with the transitions adding some extra delays as woiuld be expected.

Note the attached jpeg showing the smart rendered time line in green for the clips and red for the transitions.

I took 21 seconds for the 3 clips with no transitions, and 87 seconds for the 3 clips with all transitions.

Larry
Attached Thumbnails
Burning AVCH Disks Please Help!!-smart-render.jpg  

Last edited by Larry Horwitz; December 1st, 2008 at 09:37 AM.
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Old December 1st, 2008, 10:07 AM   #141
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Thank's Larry, I noticed that you clip is a little bit longer (30 s) than mine (17 s), perhaps that's my problem. I will try with a longer clip.

I get exactly the same smart rendered time line than you, however my experience was as described in my last post.
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Old December 1st, 2008, 12:20 PM   #142
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Shorter clips (17 seconds) also seem to work properly here....
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Old December 1st, 2008, 05:33 PM   #143
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Larry, I tested with a 30 second clip, and unfortunately I got the same results. When transitions are added just the first clip is smart rendered. In the final movie, the first part (clip smart rendered) show the same quality as the original (obviously), but the 2nd and 3rd part show some pixelation as described by Peter.

Let's check settings. In the Production Wizard (Produce tab), Step 2:

- AVC.MPGE4
- Profile: Default
- Profile name/Quality: AVCHD 1920 x 1080
- Use SVRT to save rendering time: checked

Juan

Note: Unfortunately, I can't attach images.
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Old December 1st, 2008, 11:58 PM   #144
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Is it possible that you have Dolby 5.1 checked? This causes re-rendering since the camera audio is Dolby 2.0.

Do you have a player which shows the playback bitrate, such as the Nero Showtime player? I am wondering if the video you are rendering has the same bit rate for the 2nd and 4rd clip as it does for the first clip?

For whatever it is worth, the encoding progress indicator does NOT move across at a linear rate during the Produce Movie process. It moves to about a third very quickly and takes a lot longer to do the remaining two thirds. My total time is still way shorter than yours, and my encoded bit rates are consistent across the 3 clips, as is the video appearance / quality.

Larry
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 01:09 AM   #145
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I don't have Dolby 5.1 checked, but in that case the program would re-render just the audio.

I did check the movie in Nero Showtime and the bitrate in the 2nd and 3rd clip are considerably lower than the first clip.

During the rendering process, my test has the same behaviour that your test: "It moves to about a third very quickly and takes a lot longer to do the remaining two thirds"

IMHO, all this would indicate that just the first clip is using "smart rendering".

As for the rendering time, your computer is probably faster than mine (pentium dual core).

Anyway, I have no explanation for your results: consistent bitrates across the 3 clips and the good video quality, so there's hope.

Juan
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 02:05 AM   #146
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Juan,

I'm still trying to see what your situation is. I mentioned Dolby 5.1 only because I thought it might account for your longer render times, not that it would impact video rendering. My CPU is faster and there may be some use of the CUDA GPU for some of this speed increase as well, since the 2.2.2.7c version uses my nVidia graphics card for some functions.

When I carefully watch the output video file, the 3 copies of the same clip all swing between around 14.3 and 15.5 Mbits/sec on the Showtime display. This is the very same as I see on the original clip. The 2nd and 3rd clips do seem to perhaps swing a bit more rapidly over the same range than the first clip, so perhaps there actually is some difference in the way a smart render occurs after a transition has been processed. This is not a dramatic difference, and I wonder if you are actually seeing a true drop in bitrate for the 2nd and 3rd clip, or just seeing something like I am here.

My render time increases in a logical way as I increase the transitions from 0 to 1 to 2. About 20 seconds to do the 3 clips with no transitions, 53 seconds for 1 transition, and 88 seconds for both transitions. I assume that each clip takes about 7 seconds and each transition takes about 34 seconds. I am using "Dissolve Mild" transitions, and assume that your selected transition takes shorter or longer times based on the complexity of the specific effect you happen to chose.

Hope this helps.

Larry
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 02:05 PM   #147
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Hey Larry. Need your expertise. I have Nero 9 and have tried to burn AVCHD footage shot with my SR11. I can capture the footage OK, and can move it down to the timeline. But when it comes to burning an AVCHD DVD, only the first shot (file?) is burned, but none of the others. I have even pushed the red button below the preview screen so that the entire program plays smoothly on the proview screen before trying to burn. So what is going on? How can I burn a complete AVCHD DVD from multiple files (shots) and have them show smoothly and completely?

Thanks.
Mike
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 03:42 PM   #148
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Mike,
How do you know that the burned disk only has the first clip? Could the disk be complete but your player is not working right?

Check the STREAM foldet and see how many clips are there.

Larry
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 05:08 PM   #149
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Hi Larry. I figured it out, although I am not sure if I remember how I did it. No, the disk was not complete. For whatever reason, the program would only burn just the first clip. Somehow I was able to blunder my way through things and get a complete program burn.

Nero produces great sound in AVCHD, but as for the program itself, it isn't very intuitive. Being familiar with Pinnacle and Corel, I find I have problems finding things in Nero. Mainly it is just way different, but in many cases, the things I am looking for (going back to retrieve a project) are not on the page that is showing on my screen. You have to go back to a previous screen. Nero is just not all that user friendly. Another example is trimming of clips; much easier to understand with Pinnacle and Corel. And the package of editing tools in Nero is somewhat sparse. But the picture produced and the sound in AVCHD is wonderful.

I wish they would package their manual and include it with the program. I looked online and downloaded the manual, and I have to say, it isn't all that clearly written. The Pinnacle manual is much better done for their program, and they include it with the software.

Now if only I can remember what I did to get all the clips to be included and play smoothly end to end.

Thanks for your response Larry.
Mike
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 05:20 PM   #150
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I agree entirely Mike that Nero does suffer from interface confusion. The "good news" is that it is rather easy to get used to, given the limited variety of choices compared to programs like Vegas, Final Cut, etc. And the "best news" is, as you now have witnessed, that it makes gorgeous looking disks, and is way faster than anything else on the market. I actually worte Nero and told them that if they were to properly creare a true NLE and disk authoring prigram like Nero Vision with a more comprehensive and intuitive feature set, that many people would buy it, since their core functions and quality are truly impressive. I, for one, much prefer the look of the video I get from Nero to that I get from programs like Final Cut and Vegas Pro. Pretty awesome considering that you get 8 other superb programs including a full blown Dolby 5.1 AC3 sound editor, an excellent player of Blu Ray, AVCHD, and other disks, etc. for the princely sum of $79.

Larry
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