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Old October 24th, 2011, 05:45 AM   #301
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

I am very very interested as well as plenty of others about what November 3rd might bring us, but I wonder whether it will be as relevant as some expect.
The fact is that with the new 1Dx, the F3 and the Alexa, we already get all cameras needed for production at 3 different point levels (both acquisition and rental).


The 1Dx is the first DSLR engineered to perform on the video side and looks like it will adress the main DSLR culprits: moire, aliasing, skewing and video blotchiness.

The F3 WITH S-Log and an external recorder (even just a 422) is what the doctor oderdered, giving 13.5 stops -which migh increase another stop with the new upcoming firmware- and a lovely image with so much room at post.

The ALEXA with its impressive Dynamic Range, onboard HD 444 "shoot-to-edit", 3k (ARRIRAW), 120fps and RELIABILITY, has instantly become the king of the hill (and has replaced every single RED, at least in the EU), becoming all the camera broadcast drama and film productions need.


So what should Canon bring? If it's a regular S35 422 50Mbps videocamera it will fall behind the F3. To compete with the F3, Canon should bring Log curves which is nothing they have experience with unlike Sony and others. Without LOG the Canon should be well below the $10k mark as for just a few thousands more you can get an F3, which is upgreadable to SLog turning it into a completely different camera.

The other stuff Canon could feature the camera with are 60p and 4K. 4K is great on paper but producers don't care about it as it's for the future and they need to make the money NOW, plus it complicates and increases costs in Post. 60p would be the only thing left, but again we've seen it's LATITUDE what sets cameras apart and 60p@709 won't be as much a feature as it was 3 years ago.

So is it lower PRICE the only thing left to Canon? Or can they also bring an S35, LOG, 60p, 4K camera (a Sony F65 actually) ...for $15k?

Last edited by Henry Coll; October 24th, 2011 at 05:28 PM.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 06:13 AM   #302
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

To compete with the F3, just having the S35 422 50Mbps would give it an edge over the basic F3, the s-log etc are all extras on the F3. To go further, Canon would also need the option of recording RAW or log, which is a possibly given that there are a number of 3rd party manufacturers who do offer RAW recorders.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 07:43 AM   #303
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

A price point of $ 7000 like there XL line with an S35 50mbit 422 10 bit codec with a technicolor cinestyle mode would already be very competitive. They could add the ALL-I intraframe codec at 360 mbit in the 1 DX and you would have a very serious competitor to the Sony/Pana/Red(scarlet) in these price point. They are showing what they can do in terms of image quality in the 1DX photo camera. They could also release a higher end camera to compete directly at the RED/Alexa?Sony cine camera.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 08:11 AM   #304
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

A true video camera to replace the 5DII could come as early as this Wed. The rumor that there is more than camera makes sense, as it doesn't seem Canon would use the Hollywood announcement for a $3-4K camera.
At the other end, only announcing $15K PL/EOS mount cine camera would disappoint the legion of 5D/7D video shooters.
If there's a 'wow' from Canon, it will come in sensor quality. They aren't going to radically change the price/performance landscape of video. They did that accidentally with the 5D, and that's not necessarily good for Japan.
We all benefit from Red, even if we never own their product. The Japanese would dribble out small incremental improvements each year forever if given a choice. Let's hope Red doesn't stumble this month.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 09:03 AM   #305
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

This market is very fragmented. Pricepoint is the only way to judge if a product is successful or not. We all know Alexa is great but I don't shoot for Showtime, so Alexa is not a camera I need for my workflow. So if Canon came out with an Alexa competitor I would not be affected.

The interesting angle that Canon brings to the table is their lenses. A lot of folks own still lenses and the L series is very good. So if it comes down to an F3 or FS-100 or a Canon, if you already own the L lenses the Canon looks like a great choice.

We are reaching that point where the image quality is there no matter which camera you choose for most anything outside of major theatre release. I think it will be tough to sell cameras beyond 2012 as they have become so good that the need for upgrading will be greatly diminished. When I look at the 1DX it looks like the last still camera I would ever need and it willprobably cover the video end just as well.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 10:46 AM   #306
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Perhaps a camera that records the scene depth in a separate channel? Like incorporating Kinect but at bettter resolution?
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Old October 24th, 2011, 11:18 AM   #307
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Again, I look at the XF100 price at $3 K, and wonder what is so difficult about adding larger sensor and adding one of Canon EOS lens designs. With the codec and technology there, the step into a $3 or $4 K full cinema camera is not that difficult to imagine.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 11:28 AM   #308
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Automatic rack focus would be a dream, but so would a camera that did not need add ons.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 11:50 AM   #309
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence Bansbach View Post
Anything is possible, but November 3 is Scarlet day. Epic-S was conspicuously absent from Red's latest roadmap. When pressed about it, Jim Jannard replied, "The camera you want is at the end of the year." That tells me that the Epic-S as previously specced no longer exists, at least by that name.
Actually, November 3rd is Canon Day......which Red has managed to weasel in on, including their event which is taking place across the street from Canon's at Paramount. Now I suspect that Red felt that they could use Canon's draw to funnel people to their event since people were close by.......Anyway, in the words of Yoda..."interesting day, it will be young Skywalker"

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Old October 24th, 2011, 12:12 PM   #310
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Miller View Post
If there's a 'wow' from Canon, it will come in sensor quality. They aren't going to radically change the price/performance landscape of video. They did that accidentally with the 5D, and that's not necessarily good for Japan.
We all benefit from Red, even if we never own their product. The Japanese would dribble out small incremental improvements each year forever if given a choice. Let's hope Red doesn't stumble this month.
I find this viewpoint is quite interesting.

RED was sort of disruptive technology at the time when Sony and Panavision digital cameras cost a small fortune. Canon's 5D2 did about the same on a lower segment, though unintenntionally, as the video was just an afterthought. But how often has Canon wowed with breaktrough products? It has just released incremental improvements, one after another, whether in video or DSLR land.

Everything has changed now though. There's been the RED, Sony's EX1, the 5D2, ARRI's Alexa, the F3+S-Log and now the Sony F65. All breaktrough products for some reason or another, at unprecedent price points. Is now Canon ready to change its DNA and release a revolutionary product?


By targeting Hollywood, as they've done it, it would be pretty silly to release anything below F3 (with raw/log) specs. But they could also release more than one product. For instance:

-ADVANCED: S35 422 10bit 50Mbps 30fps (60p @ 720) videocam with EOS mount at $6-8k. This would be the natural step up for all the 5D2 people and would improve on Sony's FS100 (8bit) specs.

-PRO: S35 444 10bit SDI Raw/Log 1080HD60p EOS/PL mount camera at around $15-20k.This betters the F3 (60p) and it's the camera targeted at indie Hollywood


I don't think they'll go beyond HD/2K or step into Alexa/F65 territory.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 01:58 PM   #311
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Coll View Post
..... But how often has Canon wowed with breaktrough products? It has just released incremental improvements, one after another, whether in video or DSLR land.
Leading innovation in DSLR:
Use of CMOS instead of CCD - D30
High performance CCD - 1D
Very high res - 1Ds
Low cost high res - 5D
Also 5DII still video, although it's not clear they knew what they had.

Canon has never made a large cmos based video camera. What will that be like? We can be pretty sure that form factor and codecs will resemble their current products. But we don't have much with which to guess on the IQ of the new camera(s).

What they should be providing to us 5DII/7D groupies is a video specific EF lens 1080p camera with extremely good low light performance and very little rolling shutter for less than $3-4K. The worst case is if they consider the 1Dx as part of the video product line, with video specific form factors beginning above that price point.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 02:21 PM   #312
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

If Canon are making a large sensor camera intended for the F3 market, I hope they've worked out their ergonomics. The camera on Nov 3rd may not becoming from the stills camera division, so they could be doing something different to the DSLR cameras, specially if they're planning to use PL mount cine lenses, which are heavier than still lenses.

Modular design seems to be the current trend on a number of the new cameras, although the Alexa layout is liked by many people and this camera is even being used on documentaries. The F3 seems to be getting quite a lot of 3rd party mods and speaking to a Sony rep, it seems they're are listening, so the layout on the next model could be different.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 03:30 PM   #313
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

I doubt that canon is up to taking the risk of designing a significant modular system. Plus they're used to being volume sellers. If that continues it means not producing equipment at a high price going primarily to the rental market.
There can't be much incentive financially for them to sell low volume cameras that can make big screen movies.
Yet they're announcing in Hollywood.
My fear is them screwing up the good thing they started with the 5DII........ May have something to do with the ~25 EF mount lenses in my closet........

I have nightmares about accumulating Red Scarlet mini primes.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 04:07 PM   #314
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

The price I heard from a probable major broadcaster source for one model of a Canon camera was in the F3 range, however, if that's accurate remains to be seen. He could be just quoting another rumour. Although, Sony has been doing rather well with these cameras.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 05:01 PM   #315
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Wouldn't surprise me, why would you try and be too cheap. $13k for the base F3 I think is a good price point for Canon. If records to at least 50mbps, has an S35 sensor and EOS mount it would be a winner.
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