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Old June 25th, 2010, 11:57 AM   #46
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Harry,

There are a couple of problems in the mix here.

FIrst, is the fact that you, and most others are not able to work directly with the codec that comes out of the camera. This necessitates doing a transcode. You've chosen Cineform which is an excellent codec, but you need to ensure that you are getting good quality at that step. I saw your post about that transcode producing interlaced footage where it should not. So right off the bat, you've got an error in the workflow that will undoubtedly reduce quality.

Second is the issue that we somehow have to get from 1920x1080 (or 1280x720) to 720x480 for NTSC purposes. When Vegas was my NLE, I chose to use 3rd party applications for this work because the rescaling in Vegas and most other NLEs is decidedly poor. Now that I use Avid, this is no longer necessary.

Third is the actual compression from Cineform AVI to Mpeg2. In Vegas Pro, you have the option of using the MainConcept Mpeg2 encoder. I don't know if this is available to you in VMS or not. If not, I suspect it does not have a great Mpeg2 encoder so you'll lose even more quality there. And how are you exporting your audio? DVD only supports PCM or AAC. What audio are you taking into DVDA 5?

It's not by happenstance that myself and others have glowing success with this. It's the fact that we've taken the time to truly understand the workflow and the pieces involved. And no, it's not always easy, and no, you generally can't just have the basic software do everything for you. This is not an "automatic" process. It takes care, and some understanding of the principles involved to get good results.

And for the record, going to BluRay only eliminates one potential problem area in the workflow. The rest of it will still need to be managed properly.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 04:04 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
Qualify my remarks? The file structure of the 5D and 7D is quite similar SNIP



That won't solve your problem. In fact, it's often MORE difficult to do this on a Mac, as there are more pieces involved. Ask in the Final Cut Pro section about using Compressor and the completely un-obvious need for frame controls.




Up to you. I've done both with complete success on numerous occasions.

I'm sorry Perrone, but I've done a bunch of DVDs via 5d, FCP and Compressor and have NEVER once used "frame controls."

What exactly is that and why should I be using it?

(I honestly want to know!)

The last 5dMkii project I output via compressor, it gave me H-264 iphone rez which I've found does INCREDIBLY well on web sites for net compatibility (see www.newvideoaz.com - specifically in the Apriva Pay spot - the America's Cup footage was shot on very high end cameras or used high-rez stills, so it's not an example of 5d work.) and a DV letterbox version that I can burn to any DVD.

Nothing particularly complex about the process at all.

Am I missing something here?
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Old June 25th, 2010, 04:22 PM   #48
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I'm sorry Perrone, but I've done a bunch of DVDs via 5d, FCP and Compressor and have NEVER once used "frame controls."

What exactly is that and why should I be using it?
Am I missing something here?

I have a VERY cursory understanding of Compressor since I've only used it a couple of times, but in working with others here to find the best quality workflow to go from HD to SD, it was found that unless frame controls were turned on in Compressor, it was not possible to get best rescale out of the program.

This article hits the highlights, but I suggest reading through your documentation for a more full understanding:

Using Frame Controls in Compressor - Digital Rebellion Blog
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Old June 25th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #49
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<<You've chosen Cineform which is an excellent codec, but you need to ensure that you are getting good quality at that step. I saw your post about that transcode producing interlaced footage where it should not. So right off the bat, you've got an error in the workflow that will undoubtedly reduce quality.>>
Cineform gives limited settings - i choose best quality, and "Maintain source frame format" which i expected to yield a 1920x1080p AVI file but apparently 1920x1080i is what you get instead. (the other tow options are 2. Deinterlace and 3. Convert to 24p)

<<Second is the issue that we somehow have to get from 1920x1080 (or 1280x720) to 720x480 for NTSC purposes. When Vegas was my NLE, I chose to use 3rd party applications for this work because the rescaling in Vegas and most other NLEs is decidedly poor. Now that I use Avid, this is no longer necessary.>>
I'll look into Avid but would i still use Vegas to add titles etc?

<<Third is the actual compression from Cineform AVI to Mpeg2. In Vegas Pro, you have the option of using the MainConcept Mpeg2 encoder. I don't know if this is available to you in VMS or not. >>
It is if you do an individual save to disk you have options - the Burn to DVD is totally dumb wizard driven with no options so don't have any idea what it's doing.

<<And how are you exporting your audio? DVD only supports PCM or AAC. What audio are you taking into DVDA 5?>> again the wizard to burn DVD gives no settings and produces a .ac3 audio file. If I render the audio seperately to disk i can get more selective with settings

<<It's not by happenstance that myself and others have glowing success with this. It's the fact that we've taken the time to truly understand the workflow and the pieces involved. And no, it's not always easy, and no, you generally can't just have the basic software do everything for you. This is not an "automatic" process. It takes care, and some understanding of the principles involved to get good results.>>
Where can i get the conceptual knowledge of these principles? A good overall book ?? NLEs just show button functions etc and don't hit on principles

<<And for the record, going to BluRay only eliminates one potential problem area in the workflow. The rest of it will still need to be managed properly>>
But it would be a big problem eliminated - don't most folks are starting to have BluRay players (though i don't yet myself)

Thanks for your help - again.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 08:29 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Simpson View Post
Cineform gives limited settings - i choose best quality, and "Maintain source frame format" which i expected to yield a 1920x1080p AVI file but apparently 1920x1080i is what you get instead. (the other tow options are 2. Deinterlace and 3. Convert to 24p)
Might want to post about this in the Cineform section. I don't use it so I don't know much about it. But it seems rather odd that it would actually change your source to interlaced.


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I'll look into Avid but would i still use Vegas to add titles etc?
Well, Avid is quite the jump from where you are now. And no, if you make the jump to Avid, you won't be using Vegas for anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Simpson View Post
It is if you do an individual save to disk you have options - the Burn to DVD is totally dumb wizard driven with no options so don't have any idea what it's doing.
Limitation of the consumer based version you have. It's not this way in more professional level tools.


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Originally Posted by Harry Simpson View Post
again the wizard to burn DVD gives no settings and produces a .ac3 audio file. If I render the audio seperately to disk i can get more selective with settings
Well, perhaps that's the option you should be taking. This wizard thing seems to be causing some real issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Simpson View Post
Where can i get the conceptual knowledge of these principles? A good overall book ?? NLEs just show button functions etc and don't hit on principles
You get that knowlege from a variety of sources. Forums like this are one way. Books, online research, experience, talking to other experienced video editors and other technical folks, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Simpson View Post
But it would be a big problem eliminated - don't most folks are starting to have BluRay players (though i don't yet myself)
Well, you see it as a big problem. I see it as nothing more than 1 less step in the workflow. BluRay players are making good inroads, but it will be a year or two before I'd say they are prevalent.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 10:44 AM   #51
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I currently transcode to ProRes and edit in FCP, using Color for grading. Final Cut Studio is long past a major overhaul and unless Apple man up and deliver a full suite of professional post-production applications that actually work I'll be jumping ship to Adobe - the clock's ticking...
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Old June 26th, 2010, 12:05 PM   #52
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Perrone,

This Avid MC4/5 looks to cost around $2500 - do you run this on a PC or a MAC?
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Old June 26th, 2010, 12:07 PM   #53
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Perrone,

This Avid MC4/5 looks to cost around $2500 - do you run this on a PC or a MAC?
I use it on a PC.
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Old June 27th, 2010, 09:33 AM   #54
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after much suffering I find out that my 1920x1080p file gets converted by Cineform with same format but when i pull into Vegas, Vegas changes it behind the scenes to 1920x1080i upper fields first. This might explain some of my screwed up output eh....
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Old June 27th, 2010, 10:03 AM   #55
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after much suffering I find out that my 1920x1080p file gets converted by Cineform with same format but when i pull into Vegas, Vegas changes it behind the scenes to 1920x1080i upper fields first. This might explain some of my screwed up output eh....
That is a problem for sure! I'd open a ticket with Cineform, and post over in the Cineform area. This should certainly not be happening, and I wonder if it's simply being misreported by Vegas. Wouldn't be the first time it's happened with Vegas.
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Old June 27th, 2010, 10:42 AM   #56
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Turns out to be a Vega thing nor Cineform. Vegas sets the file to interlaced upper fields first behinfd the scenes automatically

I now need to find out if Cineform can do the down convert to the AVI for me.

Another question is the 1920x1080 aspect ratio is more 16x9 wide screen format right - seems like all the SD wants to go 740x480 which is more square a/r.

Also can the SD to DVD be progressive. All my DVD Architect project media choices are interlaced??
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Old June 28th, 2010, 12:44 AM   #57
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Set the Vegas project to 23.976p or 29.97p and the Cineform files should be interpreted just fine. I've never seen an Interlace/Progressive problem going from 5D2 -> NeoScene -> Vegas Pro 8 or 9.
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Old June 28th, 2010, 12:43 PM   #58
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"Works fine on my box" is the ol' programmer's cry. I'll come over to your house and work Jon ;-)
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Old June 28th, 2010, 02:39 PM   #59
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I'll see you around 7pm... ;)

I'm wondering about a few things: do you have the project setting set properly, the versions of your apps, and if you are actually seeing problems in your footage.

I haven't looked at recent files, but I seem to remember that Canon's MOVs are set as Progressive, but Odd Line First, which is nonsensical. I thought NeoScene fixed that with its output, but maybe we're using different versions.
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Old June 28th, 2010, 02:55 PM   #60
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I think Ryan either got a little bewildered by all the replies or is no longer interested in editing!!
I am still here, I just had the worse weekend of my life...I had a freak accident happen and lost my 1 1/2yr puppy this weekend. Very sad week. Any who....since I have no experience with Adobe, Avid, Final Cut and so on...I find editing with Pinnacle easy for what we do..

However, I would like to step it up... I just have little resources to learn without some english guy who makes no sense on a dvd that hasn't been updated for over a year.

Thanks in advance...
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