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General HD (720 / 1080) Acquisition
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Old January 11th, 2005, 06:34 PM   #46
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Bill I was thinking about the marketing thing too. I'm not so much thinking about watching things at my house but selling to other people who have HDTV. Want your wedding in HD or some other event? How can they see it? I was told yesterday that in about 6 months HD players will start hitting the market.

Making the leap to HD is going to cost more and making sure what will work with other stuff is the other problem. Will the Z1 work with the new players, etc etc?

I'm kind of thinking to go with the XL2 which is going to work on the HD sets and the non HD TV's. (16:9) Then give the market a chance to work out all the little details.

If I went with HD right now I have to get a new computer,,my iMac isn't going to handle it!!
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Old January 11th, 2005, 06:56 PM   #47
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If you're thinking of selling wedding video's then by all means, an XL2 is the way to go. That's not the direction that I'm thinking. I'm looking at a different picture.

I want to be a film maker. I see HDV as a once in a life time potential 'hole' in the industry that will close pretty fast. Remember - from 1970 to 1999 everything the major TV producers created (with few exceptions) was made on SD Video and now that are really HATING the idea of HDTV. That's why the standard has been pushed out and changed.

Remember - it was supposed to be 2005 ALL broadcasted MUST be broadcasting in HDTV? Not it's 2007 that MOST brodcasters SHOULD be broadcasting in 'Enhanced Definition TV' - WHY? All those reruns of 'Judge Judy' are worthless on the the day the new standard takes effect! The ENTIRE library - the WHOLE FU&#ing ABC library becomes WORTHLESS on that day - the LOVE BOAT - 6 million dollar man - the Brady Bunch, ad naseum - get it? Right up to Jerry Springer!!! Now do you see why they are quaking in their boots?

Right now the broadcasters are in charge of the FCC - but there is another side to that force - the producers of the 'flip side' of the technology.

If you want to make wedding videos, stick with SD for now. It will be VERY hard to sell HDTV wedding video, and if you do, I'd only keep an FX1 (or and HD10) as a backup camera.

Good luck to you. (Theoretically you could include an SD and HD Version with a player in a package if you wanted - please reasearch another thread I wrote last year on this subject - I'll look it up for you if you want)

BTW - I still love some of those tunes you wrote in the late 60's!
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Old January 11th, 2005, 07:03 PM   #48
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Not sure I'm following you here.

There is no date, no mandate, no directive or any other government or FCC decree that the US convert to HDTV - ever.

The government has decided that it wants the broadcasters to switch to digital broadcasting rather than analog broadcasting, ostensibly because digital broadcasting takes up a smaller spectrum of the airwaves, so they could auction off that broader spectrum of airwaves.

Accordingly they developed the ATSC standards, 18 formats of digital broadcasting. Six are HDTV, but the rest are SDTV and EDTV. Networks and smaller broadcast stations can choose to broadcast any of those formats (including just standard-def video) and be in COMPLETE COMPLIANCE. They don't ever have to change over to HDTV if they don't want to, or can't afford to.

With that said, why would the library become worthless? It'll be just as valuable as ever. The Beatles recordings didn't become worthless simply because radio switched to stereo, nor did they become worthless when radio stations went to FM, nor did they become worthless when the world moved to CD. They just copied the content to the new format. And that's what they'll do again with the film and video library.
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Old January 11th, 2005, 07:16 PM   #49
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There is no longer a government mandate that broadcasters change to broadcasting HDTV. That changed in 2000. Prior to 2000 there WAS a mandate. The FCC changed the rules, then the industry (bought and paid for by US taxpayers - but corrupted by the corporations that actually control them) changed them back.

The new television standard for the United States was to be HDTV on or before January 1, 2007 for any network broadcasting nationally, and all local affiliates by 2010. The 'adoption' rule was supposed to take place this year. It was change to 'Enhanced Definition TV' a few years ago.

I'm not kidding. It's read. The point was that all of the bandwidth used by SD broadcasters could no longer be used and would be replaced by HDTV broadcasts. Do you not remember the talk from the mid 1990's.

Your tax dollars hard at work.

I'll find the link for the actual LAW - (yes it was a LAW - written by congress in the 1980's - read LAW - not suggestion or rule - but LAW)
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Old January 11th, 2005, 07:33 PM   #50
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Barry, as always the voice of reason.

Bill, I cannot find ANYWHERE that says anything about the FCC or anyone else trying to force HDTV upon people by a certain time. There is only mention of conversion to digital transmission. That is not the same as HDTV. As Barry mentioned DTV encompasses many formats.

And yes, I was looking at FCC etc mandates from BEFORE 2000 when you say they changed things.
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Old January 11th, 2005, 07:35 PM   #51
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Here is a reference to the wishy washy rules for DTV - NOT HDTV.

http://ftp.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/digitaltv.pdf
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Old January 11th, 2005, 07:46 PM   #52
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Mea Culpa

I could be mistake, and am prone to jump the gun during some arguments, and I apologize if I tried to present facts that weren't facts at all.

I do recall distinctly hearing over and over a new mandate by the FCC (which is a part of the exeuctive branch of government here in the US that would REGULATE the airwaves ) have a mandate being put forth by congress which clear stated that the bandwidth used (primary VHF Channels 1-13) could no longer be used by broadcasters UNLESS it was used for the purpose of HTDV broadcasts before 2005.

Now I could be completely wrong = but could someone back me up on this? Was there not a mandate (did we not have every HDTV salesman telling us this up until the end of 1999 - our old tv's would be no good any more?)

The point was that the airwaves are not owned by the FCC in any way shape or form - only regulated. The congress could tommorow say that they are to be used for CB radios and if that was the vote, the FCC would have no say whatsoever - that is the way our government works - period. The president would have to sign the law, be once it was made into law, that would be that.

OF course, the preisdent has a great deal of interest in making the broadcasters that got him elected happy.

Anyway, mea culpa if I am wrong, as I frequently am. I'm pretty sure the concept of 'ENHANCED DEFINTITION TV came about during the Clinton administration when the big broadcasters started crapping in their pants realizing how much they would have to spend to re-tool to create new content

It doesn't have much relevence to me - the MARKET does. Consumers are buying HDTV sets in droves and really want contetn for it. I want to be available to make that content someday.
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Old January 11th, 2005, 08:44 PM   #53
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There have been many precedents for this type of change. Black and white movies largely gave way to color in the 50's (and TV followed suit a decade later). Yet the previous "technology" didn't affect the longevity of the material--you can still see and rent those classic shows and films today.

Whether one considers SD vs HD to be as big a difference as black and white vs color is personal (me, I think it's a fine improvement but hardly radical). The bottom line is: quality content survives. If you were a Three Stooges fan, had 'em all on DVD's, would you never watch them again because you have an HD set? Preposterous!

Those who have invested in mammoth screens and decoders and the like are going to be content-hungry; it's only natural when you have such a dazzling image in your own home for the first time. I get this concept, I've experienced it within myself after I installed a kickin' surround system and only wanted to watch movies encoded in Pro Logic (later AC3). And when my home theatre with HD front projector is installed in a few months, I'm sure I'll be glued to shows on Voom that I would never watch on regular TV.But eventually the shiny newness wears off, you take the tech for granted and you watch things for the content again (unless one happens to be an obsessed videophile, in which case all bets are off).

Bill, I don't get why you think the SD library will become obsolete. SD material can be broadcast across an HD signal, just as black and white broadcasts over color. I expect that SD material will be processed through line-doublers and the like to help it on its way.

In the past few years, most network TV series that originated on film have been duly transferred to HD and then downcoverted to SD for broadcast; others will be re-telecined for HD. We've been "protecting" 16:9 on every film-originated TV series for years; soon enough you'll be seeing those reruns of Buffy and X-Files in glorious widescreen (although nothing will really be going on in those extra couple of inches--we've been having to keep the all action within 4:3). Really, this image of Hollywood quaking in its boots just ain't happening (except perhaps over the issue of digital piracy, which is a real and obvious concern).

Anyway--I hold fast to the belief that content will win out for the vast majority.
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Old January 11th, 2005, 10:57 PM   #54
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Bill...

I think what you're referencing is that the analog spectrum will indeed go away, and not be usable for broadcast anymore (once the switch to digital broadcasting is complete). And that would indeed mean that all the existing televisions in America (by some counts, somewhere around 200 to 300 million sets!) will "cease to work" on that day.

That's still part of the plan. Unless customers buy a $150 set-top-box conversion, yes their standard-def sets will quit working, even though the broadcasters may all still be broadcasting standard-def!

There is much argument over whether this will ever actually happen. The manufacturers seem very anxious to push it through, so that it will in essence become a giant government-mandated handout to the television manufacturers (none of which, I believe, are American corporations...) The networks are extremely reticent to let it happen, they intend to keep the digital spectrum *and* the analog spectrum if at all possible.

And the latest we've heard is that the switchover was supposed to be complete by the end of 2006. But not that many people have bought digital TV's yet. So the networks have said "we'll let you have the airwaves back after 85% of the people in the country are actually watching digital broadcasts." Which the government isn't happy about. Then the government has apparently tried to legislate that 50% of the televisions on the market by the end of this year be digital-ready. Which the Consumer Electronics Association thinks is silly, they want it to be 100%.

And none of this has anything to do with HDTV, it's all about digital broadcasting -- it's an argument over the portion of the spectrum used; the government wants UHF and VHF back so they can auction it off to cell phone and wireless networking and other types of users.


So who knows when and where this will all sort out. There's only one thing I know for certain -- when John and Jane Q. Public find out that the four or five TV's they've bought are all going to suddenly "stop working" one day... they're not going to be too happy about it. And they have no idea that that's what's planned for them.
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Old January 11th, 2005, 11:14 PM   #55
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<<<-- Originally posted by Bill Piedra : If you're thinking of selling wedding video's then by all means, an XL2 is the way to go. That's not the direction that I'm thinking. I'm looking at a different picture.

I want to be a film maker. I see HDV as a once in a life time potential 'hole' in the industry that will close pretty fast. Remember - from 1970 to 1999 everything the major TV producers created (with few exceptions) was made on SD Video and now that are really HATING the idea of HDTV. That's why the standard has been pushed out and changed.

Remember - it was supposed to be 2005 ALL broadcasted MUST be broadcasting in HDTV? Not it's 2007 that MOST brodcasters SHOULD be broadcasting in 'Enhanced Definition TV' - WHY? All those reruns of 'Judge Judy' are worthless on the the day the new standard takes effect! The ENTIRE library - the WHOLE FU&#ing ABC library becomes WORTHLESS on that day - the LOVE BOAT - 6 million dollar man - the Brady Bunch, ad naseum - get it? Right up to Jerry Springer!!! Now do you see why they are quaking in their boots?

Right now the broadcasters are in charge of the FCC - but there is another side to that force - the producers of the 'flip side' of the technology.

If you want to make wedding videos, stick with SD for now. It will be VERY hard to sell HDTV wedding video, and if you do, I'd only keep an FX1 (or and HD10) as a backup camera.

Good luck to you. (Theoretically you could include an SD and HD Version with a player in a package if you wanted - please reasearch another thread I wrote last year on this subject - I'll look it up for you if you want)

BTW - I still love some of those tunes you wrote in the late 60's! -->>>

Bill the wedding thing is only to make alittle cash to pay for more stuff. I was looking at filmmaking and HD is a good way to go. But then so is the XL2.
With Apple coming out today with HD editing software at great prices it's starting to make more sense. The guy from DVFilms said HD video transfer to film is some of the best he has seen.
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Old January 13th, 2005, 04:16 PM   #56
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What Charles said is actually correct. Even before the HD vs SD debate, most modern large 4:3 TVs had line doubling to improve picture quality from broadcast and vhs sources. Otherwise no one could have stood to look at the lousy picture.

ALL of the current crop of HDTV (16x9) support 480p. And they will continure to do so for the forseable future. And as technology marches on, all of them will have various techniques for uprezing 480p content. (Actually trying to catch up with what we can do with our computers today).

Anyone shooting 480p widescreen wil have plenty of places to distribute their content. DVX and LX2 users have nothing to worry about.

No manufacturer in their right mind is goihng to cut out the low end of the market.

As far as WMHD, well, it's now part of the distribution spec (not broadcast spec) so many of you will have no problem uprezing your stuff to 720p and redistributing it in the future.

So really, buy for what you need , and stop worrying. SD DVD will be here for at least the next 10 years. I like most consumers have no intention of going back and repurchasing my entire DVD lib. Not gonna happen. Even if I purchase HD stuff..

As far as Porno leading the way. That won't happen either. When they first started going to VHS, most of the stuff they initially transferred was shot on film and had a quality look. Now days, most porno looks like low budget soap operas, bad lighting, bad acting, actors with lots of plastic surgery scars or just plain ugly. Bad skin...bad makeup..you name it.
with their ultra low budgets, and look, porno will not be the driving force. It wasn't for DVD at all. It won't be for hddvd either.
The porn producers will certainly try to hype and market their HD offerings. But once consumers see how bad they look, they won't care. If I were producing the stuff, I would stick with SD progressive for the forseable future.

why is it every HBO special about porn shows them using FCP? geez.
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Old January 13th, 2005, 10:49 PM   #57
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<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green: With that said, why would the library become worthless? It'll be just as valuable as ever. The Beatles recordings didn't become worthless simply because radio switched to stereo, nor did they become worthless when radio stations went to FM, nor did they become worthless when the world moved to CD. They just copied the content to the new format. And that's what they'll do again with the film and video library. -->>>

There isn't full analogy with these things. Traditionally master fromats have always been a lot better than distribution formats.
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Old January 13th, 2005, 10:55 PM   #58
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Answer me this. Why are they re-broadcasting hogans heroes in HD? They can't rebroadcast 'The Love Boat' in HD. Because the love boat was shot on video. Hogans Heroes shot in 35mm film.

THats why the library will lose alot of value.
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Old January 13th, 2005, 11:46 PM   #59
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Standard-def will be up-rezzed and broadcast over HD. It's done all the time. Much of the commercials you see on HDTV are likely uprezzed SDTV.

Some old sitcoms may be re-mastered from the film source. For some, the film source may not even exist anymore, or may have deteriorated. You'll see a lot of SD uprezzed still broadcast over HD channels.
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Old January 14th, 2005, 01:35 AM   #60
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Bill, "The Love Boat" (both the original series and the late 90's comeback) was shot on 35mm.
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