VIP: Viper camera

Joe Carney · October 1st, 2002, 02:15 PM

Robert, I am pretty sure 'Enterprise' is shot HD. At least thats what I've heard. They broadcast in 16:9 letter box. At least when the DVDs come out they will be ready for wide screen Televisions.

I didn't know Scrubs was super 16. I love that show. I would like to know more about the actual costs of using 16mm for a typical low budget feature. Getting it transferred to digital and doing all post work (in SD) with the intent of going strictly broadcast and/or DVD is appealing. I figure if one wants the vaunted 'film look' for video, one should start with film to begin with. IMHO.

Thanks to all of you for this thread. I'm getting ready for my first feature. Based on the posts here, I'll go with SD DV or look into using 16mm and getting everything transfered via tape to my PC and finish there . If I understand correctly what I've read, it's not that much more expensive if I plan on keeping it digital after
transfer. (Like I said, not for theater projection, but for DVD and/or broadcast).

As much of a techno geek that I am, I have to agree that film is still the best for projection, period.

I saw Star Wars both film and DLP projection. The digital projection suffered from the dreaded screen door effect.
The film version was muddy and poor because it seems even HD has problems when uprezed to film.

One thing about HD though. It does sometimes bring out unwanted detail. Ewan McGregor had an incredibly awful looking mustache in the Digitally projected version. On the other hand, Natalie Portmans' skin is so smooth and perfect it actually looked better in the digital version.

Once again, thanks to everyone for giving real world information about HD. I was sort of skeptical about all the Lucas hype.

Adam Lawrence · October 1st, 2002, 03:29 PM

hmm..

i was rather blown away by the clarity of the Digital image of EP2.
I also saw the celuliod version and was "as usually" unimpressed. It had a big brown streak running down the side of the picture (through out the whole movie) and plenty of jagged artifacts and particles dancing throughout. From
what i hear from others on this board, film projection should be clear and
flawless in terms of particles..but unfortunatly in Las Vegas, the projectionist
must not take good care of the film stock.

<<I figure if one wants the vaunted 'film look' for video, one should start with film to begin with. IMHO.>>

well I for one, dont have the "tens of thousands" to spend on super 16mm.
therefore must resort to DV and achiving the best possible look.

Charles Papert · October 3rd, 2002, 12:23 AM

jojolimited:

Glad you enjoy "Scrubs". It's a fun show to work on.

If you get a chance, check out the new music video for the theme song of the show at scrubs-tv.com. Our lead actor, Zach Braff, directed the video which I shot for him; we used Super 16 for the band footage in color, and the black and white behind the scenes stuff was a combination of regular 16mm and Super 8. We were scheduled to shoot the band on 35mm but budget forced us back to Super 16, seeing as we had some elaborate gear on the job which we didn't want to sacrifice (the opening shot was done on an 85 ft Strada crane, incredible piece of equipment).

"Enterprise" is shot on 35mm as I recall. I visited the set at the start of production and am almost positive I saw Panaflexes there.

Good luck with your feature. If you can possibly afford the 16mm (it is unquestionably more expensive than DV, between the stock and processing and telecine) you will be very pleased with the results, I'm sure.

Dylan Couper · October 3rd, 2002, 12:38 AM

It's a shame about all the processing and stock costs for 16mm, as you can find good second hand 16mm Arri cameras (and lenses) for about the same price as an XL1.

How much do telecine costs run?

Charles Papert · October 3rd, 2002, 12:55 AM

Prices for quality telecine usually start around $400/hr and go up to well over $1000/hr. The trick is to find a colorist that likes the project and will make a deal (happens all the time).

Working with a low-end telecine and/or inexperienced colorist may possibly reduce or eliminate the visual benefits of shooting on film in the first place.

Supervising the telecine process is critical to ensure your footage is being delivered to tape as close to your vision as possible, even if you plan to do color correction later in the post process.

There's an amazing amount of power available in the telecine suite, it just takes time aka money to work with it. If you have an extra-hot window in the shot, you can run a separate pass of the same scene with a darker setting and the detail in the window will be preserved (unlike footage that originated on video), then in your post process you can cut a matte and marry the passes.

Joe Carney · October 3rd, 2002, 08:12 AM

Charles, saw the video, cool, see what you mean by the crane. Everyone should have a toy like that, hehehe.
My favorite character on the show is Neil Flynn the creepy janitor. I don't know what that says about me, but hey....I spent 5 years living in Gurnee (right next to his home town of Waukegan).

Thanks for the info on Enterprise. Now if you have Jolene Blalocks' home phone number we could talk trade or something .... just kidding. really just kidding.

I have to agree with what Dylan said. I can find used 16mm cameras and lenses for great prices. It's the cost of film and processing that worries me. I've had several offers of 'deals' if I shoot 16mm.
I have a nice super 8 camera picked up at a local flea market (actually have several, plus a working super 8 projector and a box full of some interesting home movies, one a vietnam war protest in New York circa 1969).

There are plenty of telecine houses both in Miami and Orlando so maybe I can work out a deal. I plan on doing most everything in DV long term ,but would like to use film at least once.

Anyway, thanks for the info, and good luck on scrubs.

October 1st, 2002, 03:29 PM	#17
Adam Lawrence _redone_ Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 224	hmm.. i was rather blown away by the clarity of the Digital image of EP2. I also saw the celuliod version and was "as usually" unimpressed. It had a big brown streak running down the side of the picture (through out the whole movie) and plenty of jagged artifacts and particles dancing throughout. From what i hear from others on this board, film projection should be clear and flawless in terms of particles..but unfortunatly in Las Vegas, the projectionist must not take good care of the film stock. <<I figure if one wants the vaunted 'film look' for video, one should start with film to begin with. IMHO.>> well I for one, dont have the "tens of thousands" to spend on super 16mm. therefore must resort to DV and achiving the best possible look. __________________ Adam Lawrence eatdrink Media Las Vegas NV www.eatdrinkmedia.com

October 3rd, 2002, 12:23 AM	#18
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	jojolimited: Glad you enjoy "Scrubs". It's a fun show to work on. If you get a chance, check out the new music video for the theme song of the show at scrubs-tv.com. Our lead actor, Zach Braff, directed the video which I shot for him; we used Super 16 for the band footage in color, and the black and white behind the scenes stuff was a combination of regular 16mm and Super 8. We were scheduled to shoot the band on 35mm but budget forced us back to Super 16, seeing as we had some elaborate gear on the job which we didn't want to sacrifice (the opening shot was done on an 85 ft Strada crane, incredible piece of equipment). "Enterprise" is shot on 35mm as I recall. I visited the set at the start of production and am almost positive I saw Panaflexes there. Good luck with your feature. If you can possibly afford the 16mm (it is unquestionably more expensive than DV, between the stock and processing and telecine) you will be very pleased with the results, I'm sure. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

October 3rd, 2002, 12:55 AM	#20
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Prices for quality telecine usually start around $400/hr and go up to well over $1000/hr. The trick is to find a colorist that likes the project and will make a deal (happens all the time). Working with a low-end telecine and/or inexperienced colorist may possibly reduce or eliminate the visual benefits of shooting on film in the first place. Supervising the telecine process is critical to ensure your footage is being delivered to tape as close to your vision as possible, even if you plan to do color correction later in the post process. There's an amazing amount of power available in the telecine suite, it just takes time aka money to work with it. If you have an extra-hot window in the shot, you can run a separate pass of the same scene with a darker setting and the detail in the window will be preserved (unlike footage that originated on video), then in your post process you can cut a matte and marry the passes. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

October 1st, 2002, 02:15 PM	#16
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Robert, I am pretty sure 'Enterprise' is shot HD. At least thats what I've heard. They broadcast in 16:9 letter box. At least when the DVDs come out they will be ready for wide screen Televisions. I didn't know Scrubs was super 16. I love that show. I would like to know more about the actual costs of using 16mm for a typical low budget feature. Getting it transferred to digital and doing all post work (in SD) with the intent of going strictly broadcast and/or DVD is appealing. I figure if one wants the vaunted 'film look' for video, one should start with film to begin with. IMHO. Thanks to all of you for this thread. I'm getting ready for my first feature. Based on the posts here, I'll go with SD DV or look into using 16mm and getting everything transfered via tape to my PC and finish there . If I understand correctly what I've read, it's not that much more expensive if I plan on keeping it digital after transfer. (Like I said, not for theater projection, but for DVD and/or broadcast). As much of a techno geek that I am, I have to agree that film is still the best for projection, period. I saw Star Wars both film and DLP projection. The digital projection suffered from the dreaded screen door effect. The film version was muddy and poor because it seems even HD has problems when uprezed to film. One thing about HD though. It does sometimes bring out unwanted detail. Ewan McGregor had an incredibly awful looking mustache in the Digitally projected version. On the other hand, Natalie Portmans' skin is so smooth and perfect it actually looked better in the digital version. Once again, thanks to everyone for giving real world information about HD. I was sort of skeptical about all the Lucas hype.

October 3rd, 2002, 12:38 AM	#19
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	It's a shame about all the processing and stock costs for 16mm, as you can find good second hand 16mm Arri cameras (and lenses) for about the same price as an XL1. How much do telecine costs run?

October 3rd, 2002, 08:12 AM	#21
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Charles, saw the video, cool, see what you mean by the crane. Everyone should have a toy like that, hehehe. My favorite character on the show is Neil Flynn the creepy janitor. I don't know what that says about me, but hey....I spent 5 years living in Gurnee (right next to his home town of Waukegan). Thanks for the info on Enterprise. Now if you have Jolene Blalocks' home phone number we could talk trade or something .... just kidding. really just kidding. I have to agree with what Dylan said. I can find used 16mm cameras and lenses for great prices. It's the cost of film and processing that worries me. I've had several offers of 'deals' if I shoot 16mm. I have a nice super 8 camera picked up at a local flea market (actually have several, plus a working super 8 projector and a box full of some interesting home movies, one a vietnam war protest in New York circa 1969). There are plenty of telecine houses both in Miami and Orlando so maybe I can work out a deal. I plan on doing most everything in DV long term ,but would like to use film at least once. Anyway, thanks for the info, and good luck on scrubs.