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Old February 5th, 2006, 12:53 AM   #1
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Question regarding use of 'Film-Out'

I'm fairly new to DV/HDV capture and editing. My question regards the use of the FILM-OUT function which as I understand, supplies the correct color information needed to correctly transcribe to film for projected release. (The color of the FILM-OUT almost reminds me of a 35mm one-light work print).
My questions are three fold..
1) From reading everything I can find on this site I understand that in order to effectively use the FILM-OUT option that I need a monitor that can interpret the signal so that it can be correctly viewed during image capture... and that the cheapest monitors that can do this are in the $3000 range. Is this correct or is there a less expensive monitor that will work. Perhaps using some sort of software to change the gamma before reaching the monitor?

2) With the idea of shooting for possible release on film in mind is it possible to shoot using FILM-OUT but then create an HDV or SDV color correct version for initial viewing from it (for DVD)...thus having the FILM-OUT version in the event that something is to be distributed on film later? I am not sure if this is a question for the HD100U forum or not as it may be more of a software question. I am using Vegas 6.0c.

3) With regards to the above question, how bad does a laser transfer look from HD 24p 'CINELIKE' when laser scanned to film? Is it usable or is there simply not enough color flexibility left for the film in processing?

Thanks in advance!
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Old February 5th, 2006, 04:51 AM   #2
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Hi Scott,

I afraid I don't have the answers to your questions but these are questions that I would also like to know the answers to. I can only imagine you must have something half scannable even with the CINELIKE setting. 28 days later was shot on xl1s and they seemed to do alright and I don't think the xl1 has a FILMOUT setting but on the other hand I could be wrong?

Cheers for now Greg C
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Old February 5th, 2006, 10:34 PM   #3
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Film-out not recommended

Hi Greg and Scott,

I have filmed out a bunch of HD100 footage and have tested the camera's film-out setting. I plan to do a more extensive post on the results, but in summary, do not use it. The idea of recording the data with linear gamma (no gamma correction) sounds interesting but makes no sense in an 8-bit format. Linear gamma bunches a lot of the picture information into the low end and once the camera commits that signal to an 8 bit environment, you've lost a lot of your picture information for good. When you try to bring back your mids you will see horrible noise. I have seen the results first hand in both the color correction suite and in film out. Trust me. The result is ugly. The setting was added at the last minute on a filmmaker's request, but appears to have never been tested.

The default setting isn't too bad, but whatever you do, turn detail way down (I'm using MIN). For more latitude, try playing with black stretch and Manual Knee 80%, but do tests on your subject before committing to these settings. Nothing comes without a cost. You may also want to boost color gain a little, but that's personal taste.

I hope to post some recommendations, once I get a chance to test them.

Good luck.
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Old February 5th, 2006, 11:15 PM   #4
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Andrew,

I found that turning detail off or WAY down gives you almost a out of focus look, or VERY soft, like the Barbara Walters interviews. Once you shoot like that you can't get it back. I try to keep mine at -3. But sometimes I leave it at 0. I did see your tests in LA and I thought they were great but the basement "film" look clips seemed very soft. I think the detail down is the reason.
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Old February 5th, 2006, 11:45 PM   #5
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Thanks Andrew! I (we) look forward to any further info you may get. In a way that makes things easier. For now I'll just stick to the Cine-Look function.
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Old February 5th, 2006, 11:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Duke
I found that turning detail off or WAY down gives you almost a out of focus look, or VERY soft, like the Barbara Walters interviews. Once you shoot like that you can't get it back.
To me, there seems to be a difference between MIN and OFF...like Min might be detail off, and OFF might be actually a high frequency filter (i.e. actually blurring things).

OFF is only doing damage if in fact it is blurring things. If you shoot with Min, you can always add more later in post if you want.

Again, I think the bigger and more high-res the display, the less detail you want. Seeing how the detail circuit is actually destroying your signal when you project on a 30' screen is disturbing.
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Old February 6th, 2006, 02:39 AM   #7
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me too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Weaver
OFF is only doing damage if in fact it is blurring things. If you shoot with Min, you can always add more later in post if you want..
Yeah, I've been wondering about that too. I've been shooting w/min. It's really hard to judge any of this until you do an actual film out, or see on the big screen though.

Any chance there'll be a white paper or something to that effect from JVC on this issue? It would obviously clear up some confusion for us....

John
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Old February 6th, 2006, 02:04 PM   #8
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Thanks Andrew, Brian, Scott, Nate et al

Thanks guys,

It seems this detail issue is fast becoming the new point for discussion on the block. Problem is as was said elsewhere in this thread. It's a hard thing to detect unless you start blowing things up. I start to get an idea on my 23" Sony hd tv but I don't rate the qaulity of the thing enough to even trust that. However I do start to get a sense of how 'detail off' may leave the image feeling too soft. I think it may be the case that Off is a filter and min is truly off but it's real stab in the dark stuff. I'm starting a shoot on my own project in a couple of weeks. It's the culmination of about three years work and, to be honest, I'm sh**ing it. I've spent the last couple of months trying to test, unscientifically I might add, the cameras abilities but I don't think you ever feel ready. I think I will post my prefered setting a couple of days before shooting just to see if anyone can see any real floors then close my eyes and jump (and we do this for fun?) anyway thanks again guys for the helpful feedback I just hope I don't lose complete confidence and decide to shoot the whole thing in the nice b&w setting I got the other day (what a cop out that would be). Anyway, better go loads to do.

Allthe best guys Greg C (staring into the void)
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Old February 6th, 2006, 11:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott E Wilson
1) From reading everything I can find on this site I understand that in order to effectively use the FILM-OUT option that I need a monitor that can interpret the signal so that it can be correctly viewed during image capture... and that the cheapest monitors that can do this are in the $3000 range. Is this correct or is there a less expensive monitor that will work. Perhaps using some sort of software to change the gamma before reaching the monitor?
There is a piece of hardware called a "gamma box" will "gamma correct" the linear response to emulate the filmout "end result" on a standard CRT monitor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott E Wilson
2) With the idea of shooting for possible release on film in mind is it possible to shoot using FILM-OUT but then create an HDV or SDV color correct version for initial viewing from it (for DVD)...thus having the FILM-OUT version in the event that something is to be distributed on film later? I am not sure if this is a question for the HD100U forum or not as it may be more of a software question. I am using Vegas 6.0c.
It would be possible - just simply adjust the gamma of footage in post to create an ideal master for the video master.
However, as Andrew mentioned, I fear that because of the way information is encoded with HDV in the lower IRE levels, as well as "banding" produced by 8-bit, the FILMOUT curve might actually reveal some bad artifacting once you bring the gamma curve back up. I'd like to see some tests with uncompressed FILMOUT via the wafian or a Kona/Decklink capture card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott E Wilson
3) With regards to the above question, how bad does a laser transfer look from HD 24p 'CINELIKE' when laser scanned to film? Is it usable or is there simply not enough color flexibility left for the film in processing?
This would require some trial and error, but ideally, properly compensating for the process before you do the laser print will give you the expected results.
Assuming FILMOUT linear response curve doesn't work well with HDV, then the ideal approach for filmout would be to shoot with the lowest knee and highest black stretch, capturing as much dynamic range as possible, and then use a digital intermediate suite (digital colour correction) before the filmout.
In professional DI suites, you can load a LUT (Look-up table) for the stock(s) you will use, and then WYSIWYG on the HD projector.
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Old February 7th, 2006, 07:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood
I'd like to see some tests with uncompressed FILMOUT via the wafian or a Kona/Decklink capture card.
Exactly! The Filmout setting using the YPbPr output to an Aja Kona or equivalent 10 bit capture and then pull the gamma up and see what happens.
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