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Old June 29th, 2006, 12:52 PM   #1
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Mac Workflow confusion

Howdy HD100 users. I'm new to the forum, but have found my way here several times over the past months, doing web searches... you guys really know you're sh*t!

I realize you've probably gone over this stuff a lot here - but there's nothing up at the moment about mac workflow for 720p24 logging/editing.

I got the HD100 last fall and for a while shot everything at 720p30 because FC5 supported it... but recently I found VirtualDVHS and MPEG stream clip and I have been using the former to import .m2t files of the raw video and then convert it to quicktime to get it into FC.

I was wondering is this the best mac workflow (minus Lumiere) available for 720/24? And, What is the best .mov format to convert the mpeg2 stream into for FC5 (with the least or no compression)?

When I convert m2t to AIC with MPEG streamclip, I still cant edit realtime in FC5 because the AIC codec in FC5 is specific to 30p. I could compress it to HDV 720p30 from MPEGstreamclip to edit realtime or render the AIC file with each edit in final cut... I'm wondering which is a better solution, for maintaining image quality/color information... and if there is a better solution, please let me know.

thanks.
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Old June 29th, 2006, 01:09 PM   #2
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As we patiently await 24P HDV support in FCP5.1, here is a quicky FAQ I had posted in the FCP for HDV forum a few months ago:

So, does FCP 5 edit HDV 720P30 natively? The answer is yes. It maintains timecode, you can use log and capture, it will batch capture, you can edit in native resolution, it will export and it works beautifully.

Does FCP 5 edit HDV 720P24 or 720P25 natively? Not yet, and potentially won't until version 6. Officially (according to JVC documentation,) FCP's 720P24 support will come in the next "maintenance release." However, at NAB in April JVC and Apple were displaying a version of FCP (FCP5.1+ NAB version) that fully supported the capture and editing of 720P24 ProHD format. As of this writing, FCP 5.1.1 still doesn't support HDV 720P24.

Does FCP 4.5 or 5 edit HDV 720P24 or 720P25 non-natively? Absolutely. There are at least three separate workflows that work quite well. We have discussed the various methods at length in this forum and in our FCP for HDV forum.

The M.O.S. AIC method: (additional cost: $0)
If you have FCP5, you can set the Easy Setup to "HDV 720P30 Apple Intermediate Codec" and digitize, without TC, video in any JVC format.
You can also use iMovieHD to do exactly the same thing. THe AIC digitizer captures everything on the tape and makes a new clip every time it detects a new scene (start/stop.)
The AIC digitizer is not smart enough to know that the frame rate is set for 24 or 25, so instead it throws away the repeat flagged frames, but maintains a 59.94 fps frame rate for the quicktime file.
Therefore, 720P24 and 720P25 will require the use of Cinema Tools to conform the frame rate to 23.98 or 25 respectively. This method works well for M.O.S. projects like music videos, but is not ideal for sync sound situations unless you used a slate and want to capture the sound separately.

The HDVxDV method (additional cost: $80)
HDVxDV now supports 720P24 capture from the HD100. The interface is not as easy to use as FCP's built in Log & Capture because it has no live video/audio preview, and there are no search buttons, just FF, REW, STOP & PLAY.
However, it is simple and easy to understand. Brad Wright, the developer, has attempted to facilitate the capture of source TC, but it does not work well yet.
Simply put, you capture clips straight from the camera, then export them to a secondary codec of your choice for editing in FCP 4.5 or 5. I suggest Apple Intermediate Codec. There is one little inconvience in the software (v1.24) that creates 24fps files instead of 23.98fps files. Either one seems to work in a 23.98 sequence without rendering, so I guess it isn't a big deal, unless it is the root of the problem of sync issues some people have reported on long clips. If the sync issue is created during the export, then changing the frame rate to 23.98 in Cinema Tools won't fix it. Maybe Brad Wright can inform us of what is going on with regard to 23.98 vs 24fps.

The Lumiere HD method (additional cost: $179)
Lumiere HD now "supports" 720P24 and 720P25 capture. The interface is basically the same as HDVxDV (I believe both originated from Apple's DVHSCap) but Lumiere HD has added space for description, scene and take with auto-incrementation. The workflow can seem daunting at first (and definitely takes the most time overall) but there can be some distinct advantages for proxy offline editing.
However, TC is not captured and batch recapturing is not supported.
I have been testing the latest version of Lumiere HD (v1.6b6) for a couple of weeks and it is working MUCH BETTER than 1.6b2 ever did. The workflow remains unchanged, but you can output 720P24 back to the HD100. Lumiere HD 1.6b6 is the only piece of software on the mac that will allow you to do that.

Capturing HDV-SD60P or HDV-SD50P for "overcranked" slow motion. (additional cost: $0)
You can use Apple's DVHSCap (or HDVxDV/Lumiere HD) to capture 480P60 or 576P50 HDV to m2t files. Then you can use MPegStreamclip to convert and uprez the m2t streams to Quicktime. Cinema Tools can then conform the frame rate down to 23.98 and you have instant overcranked slow-mo for use in FCP 4.5 or 5.[/QUOTE]
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Old June 29th, 2006, 01:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Chace
What is the best .mov format to convert the mpeg2 stream into for FC5 (with the least or no compression)?
Personally, if you cannot afford the hard drive space of uncompressed, I think Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC) is your best best. Others will argue for Photo-Jpeg at 95%. Here is an interesting discussion on AIC.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&highlight=aic
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Old June 29th, 2006, 01:27 PM   #4
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Tim,

thanks for the info. I just went into FC5 and went to easy set up but I could not find HDV 720p30 AIC. There was only HDV720p30... nothing about AIC. In A/V settings I can change the Capture Preset to HDV-AIC - I'm assuming thats what you are referring to.... I guess I then make it an Easy Setup.

Anyway, after I get it into FC, then do I edit at AIC30p and conform after editing? What am I losing in terms of quality here?
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Old June 29th, 2006, 01:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Chace
What am I losing in terms of quality here?
Compare for yourself:
Right-click here to download a TIFF exported via Mpegstreamclip from the original captured m2t file.

and then right-click here to download and compare this TIFF exported from Quicktime Player Pro of the AIC converted version of the same shot.

I chose this frame because it gave the Mpeg encoder a workout with the bright flashes and the dark areas, and smoke causing banding with the 8-bit bit depth. Therefore I consider this a "worst case scenario."

Some people did a "difference" comparison in that thread I linked to above. It looks like AIC handles the ProHD format much better than interlaced HDV from the Z1.

Also, AIC will render effects way faster.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Chase
I just went into FC5 and went to easy set up but I could not find HDV 720p30 AIC. There was only HDV720p30... nothing about AIC. In A/V settings I can change the Capture Preset to HDV-AIC - I'm assuming thats what you are referring to.... I guess I then make it an Easy Setup.
Yes, that should work. I may have already done this eons ago and that's why it shows up as an easy setup for me.
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Old June 29th, 2006, 01:42 PM   #6
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yeah... that looks pretty good for a worst case scenario :)

thanks for the tips!
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Old June 30th, 2006, 04:06 AM   #7
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Hi Tim

I used DVHScap to capture 25p footage last night, but I didn't get any audio.

Does this utility not capture audio? Or am I doing something wrong?


Thanks



Drew

Edit: I found my answer here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=67227
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Old July 1st, 2006, 01:04 AM   #8
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Hi Drew.

DVHSCap captures 25p footage with full audio. I've been using it to capture 25p footage for the past 11 months (and 24p footage for the past 7 months) and it always captures audio. Maybe you have downloaded a newer version than I have, but the one I use is still available on the Apple developer site and is part of "Firewire SDK 20 for Mac OS X" and is dated "2005-06-06".

Also, the workflow given in the post that you linked to can be greatly simplified and take up far less of your time. There is no need to demux and re-synch when using MPEG Streamclip because the conversions will give perfect audio synch so long as you apply the "Fix Timecode Breaks" command when you first load each clip into MPEG Streamclip (this is purely from my experience with clips up to 22 minutes long). Other applications such as HDVxDV (which I use for 24p conversions because it gives a reliable and correct frame rate conversion for 24p) do not have any function to fix timecode breaks and I am convinced this is the true reason why the audio always "drifts" out of synch on longer clips done with HDVxDV.

In fact, here is the full step-by-step workflow that I am currently using for 720p25 with MPEG Streamclip (I just finished a corporate job with it yesterday) and it is 100% indebted to the research and posts into AIC (Apple Intermediate Codec) and its workflow by Tim Dashwood:

CAPTURE:
Capture the .m2t files from the camera or deck using DVHSCap. It is part of the “FireWire SDK 20” package and can be downloaded from this page:
http://developer.apple.com/sdk/#FireWireX

CONVERSION:
1. Launch MPEG Streamclip (available from this link: http://www.squared5.com/svideo/mpeg-streamclip-mac.html ) and open the .m2t file you wish to convert.
2. Fix the timecode breaks. (press “Apple-F”, then click "Proceed").
3. Select your In ("i") and Out ("o") points, or omit this step if you wish to convert the entire clip.
4. Select “Export to Quicktime” (Apple-E).
5. Scroll through the “Compression” codecs and select "Apple Intermediate Codec".
6. Drag the “Quality” slider to 100%.
7. Deselect both “Interlaced Scaling” and “Reinterlace Chroma”.
8. Make sure the “Frame Size” is “1280 X 720 (16:9)”. There should also be a message "No scaling will be performed" when you have this right.
9. “Frame Rate” - type in "25"
10. Click “Make Movie”.
11. Type in the file name, select the destination and click "Save".

EDIT IN FINAL CUT PRO
1. Launch Final Cut Pro.
2. Open "Easy Setup", select "HDV - 720p30" and click "Setup".
3. Make a new sequence (Apple-N).
4. Double-click the new sequence to open it, then select "Sequence - Settings" (or press Apple-0).
5. In "Editing Timebase" select "25".
6. Under "Compressor" select "Apple Intermediate Codec".
7. Click "Advanced..." and under "Preset" select "HDV 720p" then click "OK".
8. Then click "OK" on the "Sequence Settings" window.
9. Now import your converted AIC files and drag them into your sequence and (if done correctly) there should be no need to render.
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Old July 11th, 2006, 07:44 PM   #9
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FCP doesn't bring in original Time code for HDV30P?

I just used AIC codec with FCP 5 to bring in footage off the JVC hd-100 shot 720/30p. It came in nice but the original time code is not taken in- is there a preset change or is this just a glitch of it not being fully supported yet. Is there any other way to bring it in natively with original time code preserved?
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Old July 11th, 2006, 09:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Gruchala
I just used AIC codec with FCP 5 to bring in footage off the JVC hd-100 shot 720/30p. It came in nice but the original time code is not taken in- is there a preset change or is this just a glitch of it not being fully supported yet. Is there any other way to bring it in natively with original time code preserved?
Keith,

If you shot 720P30, FCP5 is fully compatible in natve HDV. There is no need to use the AIC codec. These workarounds we always talk about are not necessary for 720P30.

Just go to "Easy Setup" and set it for "HDV - 720p30." You can capture native HDV, work in HDV, and even output back to the camera in HDV, TC will be maintained.
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Old July 11th, 2006, 09:32 PM   #11
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Thanks Tim

Thanks for the info- somehow I figured that was a Sony setting that didn't apply.
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Old July 13th, 2006, 02:32 PM   #12
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I'm trying to import some 30p clips in FCP and can't seem to capture multiple clips into one file. Even with the "Create new clip on Start/Stop" checkbox off under clip settings, it still creates a separate file for each clip coming from the camera. It also misses the first 4-5 seconds of the shot. Could this be because my computer isn't fast enough?

I'm using the Quicksetup: HDV 720p30 and a Powerbook G4 1.25Ghz. The same splitting occurs in AIC, but that will sometimes capture the first 5 seconds of each clip and sometimes not. Under straight HDV with "Capture Now" it will say, "Searching for Media" every time the camera stopped rolling and started again, the footage continues to roll and then says "Now capturing" 5 seconds later. Timecode was set to "REC" and seems to be continuous.
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Old July 13th, 2006, 07:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Terpstra
I'm trying to import some 30p clips in FCP and can't seem to capture multiple clips into one file. Even with the "Create new clip on Start/Stop" checkbox off under clip settings, it still creates a separate file for each clip coming from the camera. It also misses the first 4-5 seconds of the shot. Could this be because my computer isn't fast enough?

I'm using the Quicksetup: HDV 720p30 and a Powerbook G4 1.25Ghz. The same splitting occurs in AIC, but that will sometimes capture the first 5 seconds of each clip and sometimes not. Under straight HDV with "Capture Now" it will say, "Searching for Media" every time the camera stopped rolling and started again, the footage continues to roll and then says "Now capturing" 5 seconds later. Timecode was set to "REC" and seems to be continuous.
Chad,

As far as I know you cannot capture a continuous Mpeg2 stream over a start/stop break without dropping something. Even programs like LumiereHD and HDVxDV that can physically capture over the break get confused when they encounter it. (One of the main culprits for Lumiere HD crashes.)
Keep in mind that everything in the HDV stream is based on GOPs (Group of Pictures,) not a newly compressed frame for each frame like standard DV.
This is why preroll is so important with HDV.

I'm afraid the only way around this would be to use an analog capture card.
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Old July 13th, 2006, 08:22 PM   #14
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Wow. I never knew that. What about that checkbox that says "Create new clip on Start/Stop?" Does it do anything?

I hate to bring this up here, but my FX1 will capture whole HDV tapes just like normal DV. ĖStarts, stops and all. And that's 15 GOP am I right? I only bring it up because thatís where Iím coming from and hadnít heard about this before.

Could there be a fix to this in the imminent update to FCP? I know for film-making pre-roll isnít a problem, but for event videographers, waiting 5 seconds to start filming when something irreplaceable is happening right in front of you seems like an eternity.

What about other NLEís? Do they capture over the breaks ok, or do they stop, drop and roll for 5 seconds? (pun intended)
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Old July 14th, 2006, 08:13 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Terpstra
Wow. I never knew that. What about that checkbox that says "Create new clip on Start/Stop?" Does it do anything?

I hate to bring this up here, but my FX1 will capture whole HDV tapes just like normal DV. ĖStarts, stops and all. And that's 15 GOP am I right? I only bring it up because thatís where Iím coming from and hadnít heard about this before.
Well then that proves it SHOULD be possible to capture HDV over breaks, even though I've never heard of it working properly with the HD100. Maybe the breaks are dependent on TC, so it will only work with REGEN mode.
BTW Chad, do you have an "A" model?

Out of curiosity, why would you want to capture one whole tape as one clip if you have start/stop breaks in it? Isn't start/stop detection a good thing?
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