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Panasonic DVX / DVC Assistant
The 4K DVX200 plus previous Panasonic Pro Line cams: DVX100A, DVC60, DVC30.


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Old October 16th, 2002, 11:03 PM   #61
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60i

<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : Actually 60fps is 60 fields per second.
30p and 24p are frames per second.

Per choosing, the camera has a rotary scene file switch for storing settings (5). There are presets, two 60i, 30p and two 24p, but you can change them to anything you want.

I have 4 24p modes and 30P. 60i sucks :)

Per editing, check the resource page (top item in this forum) for lots of links to detail information plus look at the FAQ Aaron posted here. All very helpful. -->>


Can you elaborate on how 60i mode "sucks?" I was hoping in 60i, it'd be at least close to what you can get with the Canon's and Sony's (which don't suck). Can you explain?

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Old October 16th, 2002, 11:09 PM   #62
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Yes, I think all 60i sucks. Even CineAlta 1080i sucks.

I started shooting film. It's progressive or bust for me. I'll never shoot 60i again unless I'm trying to make it look like crappy interlaced video.
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Old October 16th, 2002, 11:19 PM   #63
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prog scan..

<<<-- Originally posted by Stephen van Vuuren : Yes, I think all 60i sucks. Even CineAlta 1080i sucks.

I started shooting film. It's progressive or bust for me. I'll never shoot 60i again unless I'm trying to make it look like crappy interlaced video. -->>>

Yes, I'm certainly aware of the 24p and 30p mode benefits. Lido sent me a couple clips shot in his back yard which I burned to DVD and played back in a prog-scan player via component into a prog-scan LCD projector. When I activated prog-scan, the stuff looked pretty good. His stuff had the purple fringe also, except on one of the clips, it wasn't nearly as evident. I'm still waiting to hear what the deal is with this fringing before I buy, but I'm very curious why everything I've seen so far looks so dark? Including your stuff. Most of it looks somewhere between a full stop and as much as 2 stops under exposed. This could easily account for the dull color. I've previewed many of these clips on 4 different systems, and they all seem dark. Have you tried giving images a bit more exposure? Have you heard anything else regarding the fringe? Or, do you really not care about it at all?

Also, I can see how under exposing a bit would make sense for film transfer, and perhaps this is what Panasonic was thinking when they set up these default cine settings, etc. However, if you're not going to film, but just want a more film like lattitude, contrast, and 24p motion, it seems like you could adjust for better pop. The thing that's baffling me is that all the images including the "pro" shot stills look dark and muddy. I've shot 16mm as well, and everytime I look at these sample clips, I keep saying to myself, "why do these people keep underexposing like this? If they'd just give it a bit more light, we'd be seeing better results in terms of color rendition and contrast." But, because we/I haven't seen anything properly exposed for NTSC viewing or even over-exposed to see what that looks like, it makes me wonder if this is all the Pana is capable of. Thoughts?

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Old October 17th, 2002, 12:17 AM   #64
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I always underexpose video unless I'm trying to blow out the highlights. I can get details from the shadows in post, but once the highlights are clipped, they are gone.
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Old November 7th, 2002, 05:05 PM   #65
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24 p and ntsc in NLE

next shoot is for dvd, i'm thinking of trying to shoot in 24p for studio green screen shots (50%) but i have some location shots that will have some quick action shots from a 10 foot crane so i will need to use the dreaded autofocus and since the 24p doesn't use the auto focus I am wondering how the 24p will match up to the ntsc in the editor and problems converting the ntsc to 24p all so that it can be converted to mpeg for dvd in the end

is it really worth all the trouble????
If you have a pan100 camera please tell me....

the 24p will be very handy for animation work, that is my main reason i'm looking at the pan100.... but I still need live action from a crane....

yada yada yada
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Old November 11th, 2002, 02:17 PM   #66
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As far as I know, there are no native 24 p NLE's available and the Pana allways outputs a 3:2 pulled down NTSC (interlaced) format. So yr 24p *is* NTSC in yr NLE. The only thing is that it is easier to convert the 3:2 pulled down NTSC to real 24p for film tranfer (of no use for DVD!)
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Old November 11th, 2002, 07:29 PM   #67
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Panasonc also offers an advanced telecince mode which is easier to translate your captured footage to true 24p for your NLE. If your NLE supports 23.9x (aka 24p) , then you should look into getting dvfilmmaker from dvfilm.com. This advanced mode is mainly for converting captured footage to 24p in your editor.

The standard telecine is the more traditiontional aproach used for NLE work.

I don't think the advanced mode telecince would be recognized by standard 3:2 pulldown algorithms used in most DVD players or progressive displays, or even Windows Media player.
In fact if your 24p final output is to mpeg2 DVD, your 24p footage will once again have to be telecined to 29.97 drop frame to play on NTSC television, which.... with the new progressive DVD players, will once again be converted back to 24p for final display.

Ain't technology grand?
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Old November 11th, 2002, 08:44 PM   #68
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24fps

This might be a solution :

-> Shoot with the DVX100 in 24p advanced, which uses an unconventional 2:3:3:2 pulldown

-> Process your footage with DVfilm Maker to remove the extra 6fps added for NTSC capture by the cam (no recompression / image degradation necessary if you shoot in advanced mode)

-> You'll get a DV file in .mov since only Quick Time is able to encode in true 24fps or 23.98fps, whichever suits you the best.

-> Then use a 24fps or 23.98fps Timeline in Premiere to edit.

-> Output to 24fps or 23.98fps for film transfer or use DVFilm Maker again to make a 3:2 pulldown to bring it back to 29.97 NTSC for DVD / VHS...

That's what I would / will do...

For the live action part you could always use the 30p or 60i modes and intercut it with the rest of your footage (with a bit of processing to edit in 24fps)
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Old November 12th, 2002, 06:30 AM   #69
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Apple has been working with Panasonic (announced at NAB) on their FireWire connectivity. It's rumored that in the next version of FCP a direct 24p feed will be possible. Premiere could also be made to do the same.

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Old November 15th, 2002, 11:01 AM   #70
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thanks for your comments,
just what I thought - it seems to take a lot of conversion to get that shutter look. i guess i was fishing for an adverb on the look, so i guess that's telling....
i have dps hardware and cyborg will edit everything...
oh well, it'll help on the rotoscoping at least....

yeah, "it's getting better all the time"
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Old January 2nd, 2003, 08:51 AM   #71
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Check Sync in 24p Modes

Hi All,

Myself and some other users of the DVX100 that have been primarily working in the 24p modes have been encountering a consistent sync problem: the audio is *recorded* on the tape 2 frames in advance of the picture.

Surprisingly, not very many people have reported this, but I wonder if this is in part due to few using these modes extensively yet.

The current thinking is that this anomaly has to do with the pulldown process that camera is performing (buffering 2 frames of video without delaying the audio.) If this is the case, it would be a universal *feature* - the problem of course is that they did not delay the audio as well or more importantly point out this issue in the documentation. (It certainly ate up more than my fair share of time chasing it down...)

Of course, it is fairly easy to rectify in post once one knows to expect it. (With the pulldown conversion even handling it automatically.) But again, it will be somewhat unfortunate if this is something that is not handled properly at the camera itself.

I would like to know if others here can replicate the same problem:

* Record in both 24p Standard and Advanced;
* Shoot something that is easy to distinguish sync with, ie - clapboard or hands clapping;
* I'm guessing that you'll see a sync problem even on playback and it will be 2 frames ahead upon examining the capture;
* Please post back here what your results are.

I certainly don't want to set off an alarm that the camera is unusable, because I don't think this is the case even if this sync problem is for real. Let's just see how universal of an issue it is - with any luck, maybe it is just a bad mix of settings...

Thanks,
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Old January 2nd, 2003, 08:55 PM   #72
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Hey Clayton, will I be able to see this when I play back footage on the camcorder itself? I'll have to try this when I get the chance, I haven't shot in any of the 24p modes yet.
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Old January 2nd, 2003, 09:24 PM   #73
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I have a client that is using the DVX100 and I'll ask him if he's had any audio sync issues. I shot some test footage with it and didn't notice any audio sync problem. But we were more looking at the video and could have missed a sync error. I'll post back tomorrow or saturday what I find out.

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Old January 2nd, 2003, 09:29 PM   #74
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Hi,

Yes you should be able to notice sync on playback if the sound is a distinct event like a clapboard or clapping your hands together. (Sound should be early.) It seems to only be an issue in the 24p modes (Standard and Advanced pulldowns), I think.

Try shooting in these two modes (as well as 30p and 60i if time permits) with a distinct sync sound and let us know what results you encounter.

Thanks,
Clayton
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Old January 6th, 2003, 01:26 AM   #75
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For anyone who missed my post on 2-pop.



http://home.inreach.com/bobinick/audio-sync.jpg

I made this picture displaying audio sync, from results gathered in Vegas Video, which shows the audio waveform.

The right edge is where the "clap" takes place. The scale is two frames. The centerline is the division between the frames.

This shows that 60i and 24p (at about 1.85 frames) are the most out of sync and that 24pa is the most in sync (at about 1.6 frames). (These numbers are estimates taken from the supplied picture)
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