24p questions

Clayton Farr · January 8th, 2003, 08:40 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher Go : Was perusing Vinson Watson's AG-DVX100 review and saw this: "Something to remember; to allow the DVX100 a few seconds to to sync sound when you switch into 24p" Wonder what he meant by this exactly? Will waiting for a bit after changing into one of the 24p modes help sync? -->>>

Not that I am aware of. Everything I've shot in 24pa (the only mode I've used on borrowed camera thus far) has been out of sync - irregardless of how long it has sat waiting for us.

Perhaps this is referring to the "resetting" process that takes place when switching between 60i/30p and one of the 24p modes. But again, I doubt that this effects the audio. If your tests show otherwise please correct my presumptions... ;)

Thanks,
Clayton

Jeff Donald · January 8th, 2003, 03:24 PM

I asked my client to try the wait a few seconds for sync approach and he reported no difference. The video delay is present in all modes. He's getting ready to call Panasonic and see what they have to say on the matter.

jeff

Nick Kerpchar · January 8th, 2003, 06:30 PM

Jeff,
It will be interesting to hear what you friend learns from Panasonic.

Nick

Vinson Watson · January 9th, 2003, 01:30 AM

I need to ask you guys is this sync problem happening after you've dropped the extra frames to go back to 24p in your NLE and does it happen in 30p as well. Also has anyone tested other cams to see how they sync up. Check this stuff out and tell me what you find and how big of a problem do you think this is. I may do an article on this.

-Vinson

Christopher Go · January 9th, 2003, 05:48 AM

It happens directly on recording I believe. As for which modes this occurs in the earliest reports included both 24p modes but now I understand it even affects the default 60. Not sure about 30p. From my limited testing it does appear to affect 60 interlaced. As far as how problematic this is I'm not so sure. Some people see the same sync problem on a few other DV cameras, and 1 or 2 frames doesn't seem that problematic to me. It is bothersome though that we weren't made aware of this potential issue however. Like everyone else, I guess we're waiting on the official word from Panasonic.

I think if you wrote an article on it, that would be great.

Jeff Donald · January 9th, 2003, 06:40 AM

I'll double check, but my understanding is, my client tried all the modes. I'm not even sure he uses 24p for production, but he tested both 24p modes and the video was slow. My client does mostly commercials and training tapes. He uses the 30p and 60i modes to the best of my knowledge. But I'll check later to be sure. he also was going to call Panasonic and ask about the problem. I'll ask how that went, too.

Jeff

Christopher Go · January 9th, 2003, 07:09 AM

Probably just my ignorance again, but is this a case of unlocked audio (vs. locked audio)? Or is 1 or 2 frames too large a departure? Does the AG-DVX100 have locked or unlocked audio (thought all DV was unlocked save for the DVCAM and DVCPRO formats)?

Sorry for my speculations, just watching the mystery unfold I guess.

Jeff Donald · January 9th, 2003, 07:35 AM

Unlocked audio is +/- 1/3 of a frame. It is caused by the inaccuracies of the audio clock. Unlocked audio can and will drift. The audio can start out fine, then slow, then speed up to match video again.

The problem that some people are reporting with the DVX100 is that the audio is always before the video by almost 2 frames (not the +/- 1/3 frame). I believe it is being caused by digital processing of the video signal.

Jeff

Ray Saavedra · January 10th, 2003, 12:46 AM

Got home and did a test using a couple of vhs case.(I didn't have a clap board). Tried it with 60, 30 and 24. Yes, I did find 1 to 2 frame out of sync starting from 60i. I used Premiere in 1 frame setting. I purchased mine from Zotz Digital about a month ago. I wonder if Brian of Zotz heard a word from Panasonic.

Vinson Watson · January 10th, 2003, 02:34 AM

There's a setting in Final Cut 3 specifically made for sync problems in with the XL. It's in the audio settings I believe. I'm trying to find out what it's called but I think this may help you guys too.

-Vinson

Vinson Watson · January 10th, 2003, 02:38 AM

Jeff says that FCP thing's a no go.

-Vinson

Skip Hunt · January 10th, 2003, 12:32 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : I asked my client to try the wait a few seconds for sync approach and he reported no difference. The video delay is present in all modes. He's getting ready to call Panasonic and see what they have to say on the matter.

jeff -->>>

Jeff, has your client heard anything from Panasonic? I've contacted my retailer, but haven't heard anything back yet.

Has anyone received any news at all regarding the sync issue and whether Panasonic is even planning on addressing it?

thx,

Skip Hunt

Taro Beckwith · January 10th, 2003, 03:48 PM

Here's an explanation from Stuart English:

http://2-pop.5thavehosting.com/cgi-b...mes;read=37154

Jeff Donald · January 10th, 2003, 05:30 PM

My client got the same answer (in less technical and less specific terms) and is resigned to the audio delay anomaly with the DVX100. but if I'm reading Stuart English's explanation correctly, he seems to say that the maximum delay is 1 frame. My client firmly maintains that the delay is closer to 2 frames. He conducted his test indoors at fairly close range (6 to 8 feet from subject) and using CRT monitors.

We are getting together this weekend to compare several cameras (he has a Sony PD150 and DVX100) with my XL1S. I'll post the results Monday or Tuesday when I have time.

Jeff

January 10th, 2003, 06:49 PM

Stuart English posted a response to the sync issue on other sites:

http://2-pop.5thavehosting.com/cgi-bin/discussion/forums/panasonicAGDVX100camera.cgi?read=37154

Michael

January 8th, 2003, 08:40 AM	#91
Clayton Farr Contributor Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 94	<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher Go : Was perusing Vinson Watson's AG-DVX100 review and saw this: "Something to remember; to allow the DVX100 a few seconds to to sync sound when you switch into 24p" Wonder what he meant by this exactly? Will waiting for a bit after changing into one of the 24p modes help sync? -->>> Not that I am aware of. Everything I've shot in 24pa (the only mode I've used on borrowed camera thus far) has been out of sync - irregardless of how long it has sat waiting for us. Perhaps this is referring to the "resetting" process that takes place when switching between 60i/30p and one of the 24p modes. But again, I doubt that this effects the audio. If your tests show otherwise please correct my presumptions... ;) Thanks, Clayton

January 8th, 2003, 03:24 PM	#92
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I asked my client to try the wait a few seconds for sync approach and he reported no difference. The video delay is present in all modes. He's getting ready to call Panasonic and see what they have to say on the matter. jeff

January 8th, 2003, 06:30 PM	#93
Nick Kerpchar Major Player Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 211	Jeff, It will be interesting to hear what you friend learns from Panasonic. Nick

January 9th, 2003, 01:30 AM	#94
Vinson Watson Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	I need to ask you guys is this sync problem happening after you've dropped the extra frames to go back to 24p in your NLE and does it happen in 30p as well. Also has anyone tested other cams to see how they sync up. Check this stuff out and tell me what you find and how big of a problem do you think this is. I may do an article on this. -Vinson

January 9th, 2003, 05:48 AM	#95
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	It happens directly on recording I believe. As for which modes this occurs in the earliest reports included both 24p modes but now I understand it even affects the default 60. Not sure about 30p. From my limited testing it does appear to affect 60 interlaced. As far as how problematic this is I'm not so sure. Some people see the same sync problem on a few other DV cameras, and 1 or 2 frames doesn't seem that problematic to me. It is bothersome though that we weren't made aware of this potential issue however. Like everyone else, I guess we're waiting on the official word from Panasonic. I think if you wrote an article on it, that would be great.

January 9th, 2003, 06:40 AM	#96
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I'll double check, but my understanding is, my client tried all the modes. I'm not even sure he uses 24p for production, but he tested both 24p modes and the video was slow. My client does mostly commercials and training tapes. He uses the 30p and 60i modes to the best of my knowledge. But I'll check later to be sure. he also was going to call Panasonic and ask about the problem. I'll ask how that went, too. Jeff

January 9th, 2003, 07:09 AM	#97
Christopher Go Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 429	Probably just my ignorance again, but is this a case of unlocked audio (vs. locked audio)? Or is 1 or 2 frames too large a departure? Does the AG-DVX100 have locked or unlocked audio (thought all DV was unlocked save for the DVCAM and DVCPRO formats)? Sorry for my speculations, just watching the mystery unfold I guess.

January 9th, 2003, 07:35 AM	#98
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Unlocked audio is +/- 1/3 of a frame. It is caused by the inaccuracies of the audio clock. Unlocked audio can and will drift. The audio can start out fine, then slow, then speed up to match video again. The problem that some people are reporting with the DVX100 is that the audio is always before the video by almost 2 frames (not the +/- 1/3 frame). I believe it is being caused by digital processing of the video signal. Jeff

January 10th, 2003, 12:46 AM	#99
Ray Saavedra Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 127	Got home and did a test using a couple of vhs case.(I didn't have a clap board). Tried it with 60, 30 and 24. Yes, I did find 1 to 2 frame out of sync starting from 60i. I used Premiere in 1 frame setting. I purchased mine from Zotz Digital about a month ago. I wonder if Brian of Zotz heard a word from Panasonic.

January 10th, 2003, 02:34 AM	#100
Vinson Watson Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	There's a setting in Final Cut 3 specifically made for sync problems in with the XL. It's in the audio settings I believe. I'm trying to find out what it's called but I think this may help you guys too. -Vinson

January 10th, 2003, 02:38 AM	#101
Vinson Watson Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 79	Jeff says that FCP thing's a no go. -Vinson

January 10th, 2003, 12:32 PM	#102
Skip Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 37	<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : I asked my client to try the wait a few seconds for sync approach and he reported no difference. The video delay is present in all modes. He's getting ready to call Panasonic and see what they have to say on the matter. jeff -->>> Jeff, has your client heard anything from Panasonic? I've contacted my retailer, but haven't heard anything back yet. Has anyone received any news at all regarding the sync issue and whether Panasonic is even planning on addressing it? thx, Skip Hunt

January 10th, 2003, 03:48 PM	#103
Taro Beckwith Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 27	Here's an explanation from Stuart English: http://2-pop.5thavehosting.com/cgi-b...mes;read=37154

January 10th, 2003, 05:30 PM	#104
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	My client got the same answer (in less technical and less specific terms) and is resigned to the audio delay anomaly with the DVX100. but if I'm reading Stuart English's explanation correctly, he seems to say that the maximum delay is 1 frame. My client firmly maintains that the delay is closer to 2 frames. He conducted his test indoors at fairly close range (6 to 8 feet from subject) and using CRT monitors. We are getting together this weekend to compare several cameras (he has a Sony PD150 and DVX100) with my XL1S. I'll post the results Monday or Tuesday when I have time. Jeff

January 10th, 2003, 06:49 PM	#105
Michael P Posts: n/a	Stuart English posted a response to the sync issue on other sites: http://2-pop.5thavehosting.com/cgi-bin/discussion/forums/panasonicAGDVX100camera.cgi?read=37154 Michael