24p questions

Stephen van Vuuren · February 5th, 2003, 10:34 AM

Bill:

Note that this camera also shoots 30P for those who don't like 24P. 30 fps is the same speed as frame-mode that this thread addresses.

Bill Ravens · February 5th, 2003, 10:57 AM

I think 30p is a terrific format to shoot in. For that matter, having the CHOICE is a great thing.

Choosing 24p is a little problemmatic because of the current spate of NLE capabilities( or lack thereof) in 24p. Otherwise, 24p definitely has its advantages....Primarily in the ease of DV to film transfer.

Skip Hunt · February 5th, 2003, 12:48 PM

I like both 30p and 24p. Actually, I liked 30p better in the beginning, but the aesthetics of 24p are really starting to grow on me. I just wish Apple would release a version of FCP that would take away a few of the hoops you have to leap through in order to use 24p.

Steven, I remember you had to unload a couple DVX's way back due to funding issues. Are you back in the DVX boat now?

Skip Hunt

Stephen van Vuuren · February 5th, 2003, 01:03 PM

Yes I am, thanks to 0% interest card for 12 months.

Mark Nicholson · February 6th, 2003, 08:44 PM

Glad to hear you got another one Stephen! Your initial reports were very helpful for many people.

February 7th, 2003, 05:44 PM

Nobody has really answered the DP question:

Where would NTSC 29.97 Frame-Mode fail and
true 30p succeed? Why does the DP *need* it?

Stephen van Vuuren · February 7th, 2003, 05:52 PM

30P on this cam is 29.97fps - that's not the issue.

The issue is frame mode is not full resolution - only about 360 lines.

This camera is full resolution, 480 line. See www.adamwilt.com for more info.

Bill Ravens · February 7th, 2003, 06:15 PM

Resolution, smezolution....the old traditional performance parameters still apply...like optical quality of the lens system. I submit the glass on this consumer cam is not up to par.

Frank Granovski · February 7th, 2003, 06:28 PM

Both the MX3000 and DVX100 use Leica optics.

Also, the frame mode of the MX3000 gives you full vertical and horizontal resolution.

Re: "In what situations would 29.97 Frame-Mode fail where 24p would succeed?"

The DVX100's 24P mode uses 3:2 pull down so when viewing its footage on a TV, you'll also be seeing interlaced 29.97 frames, just like with the MX3000.

Stephen van Vuuren · February 7th, 2003, 06:52 PM

The MX3000 gives you 30 fps at 720X480 off the CCD's? I'm not sure that's correct. According to Panasonic, the AG-DVX1000 is the first 3-chip miniDV to do true progressive scan at the CCD and on tape.

Frank Granovski · February 7th, 2003, 07:51 PM

I'm not sure if that's correct either, however:

"The MX300...provides suberb horizontal resolution equivalent to 1,530 lines of a broadcast camera." ---MX300A Brochure. Frame mode: "records full vertical and horizontal resolution." ---another MX300A brochure.

GL1 and Optura PI manuals state that in frame mode/progressive mode the resolution is increased by 1.5 - both vertical and horizontal.

So..., is this correct, or are these cam companies lying?

According to Pana, the MX5000 plays back the max which miniDV is capable of, both in interlaced, progessive and interlaced 16:9 and progressive 16:9. But then the MX5000 has a way more video effective CCD pixels than the DVX100, and does the better 16:9. One problem though: where's the lux? (Couldn't help it!)

Stephen van Vuuren · February 7th, 2003, 09:18 PM

It's confusing, but here's how it works:

GL1/XL1 - they use Pixel shift to increase the 240 lines per field to 360 line in one frame. Thus the "1.5 increase" in vertical.

Optura PI is full frame progressive, but one chip.

All Panasonic frame modes are GL1/XL1 methods. The MX5000 might be different, but I have not seen any hard evidence it's true progressive video.

Adam Wilt did a great article in DV mag about frame mode.

Mark Nicholson · February 8th, 2003, 02:51 AM

I have not seen any evidence that the MX5000 does full progressive scan either. You'd think Pana would point this out!

Until they do, I say it uses the same old FRAME mode of earlier cams. I hope someone can find evidence to prove it either way...

Brian Huey · February 10th, 2003, 05:17 PM

It seems from what I've read some of the DVX100's better picture w/ 24p or even 30p is do to the cinema gamma or whatever they call the altered gamma curve. Is there away to do this with software such as After Effects (hopefully the non-production bundle which I own). Premiere has a gamma adjustment but it's only a overall boost/decrease.

Stephen van Vuuren · February 10th, 2003, 05:33 PM

Yes - you can do it in After Effects. Check www.adamwilt.com for a graph of the gamma curve changes.

February 5th, 2003, 10:34 AM	#121
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Bill: Note that this camera also shoots 30P for those who don't like 24P. 30 fps is the same speed as frame-mode that this thread addresses. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

February 5th, 2003, 01:03 PM	#124
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Yes I am, thanks to 0% interest card for 12 months. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

February 6th, 2003, 08:44 PM	#125
Mark Nicholson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Eldorado Hills CA Posts: 68	Glad to hear you got another one Stephen! Your initial reports were very helpful for many people. __________________ Sacramento http://eyepatchfilms.com 2x HD-250, BR-HD50, Media Composer

February 7th, 2003, 05:52 PM	#127
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	30P on this cam is 29.97fps - that's not the issue. The issue is frame mode is not full resolution - only about 360 lines. This camera is full resolution, 480 line. See www.adamwilt.com for more info. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

February 7th, 2003, 06:52 PM	#130
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	The MX3000 gives you 30 fps at 720X480 off the CCD's? I'm not sure that's correct. According to Panasonic, the AG-DVX1000 is the first 3-chip miniDV to do true progressive scan at the CCD and on tape. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

February 5th, 2003, 10:57 AM	#122
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I think 30p is a terrific format to shoot in. For that matter, having the CHOICE is a great thing. Choosing 24p is a little problemmatic because of the current spate of NLE capabilities( or lack thereof) in 24p. Otherwise, 24p definitely has its advantages....Primarily in the ease of DV to film transfer.

February 5th, 2003, 12:48 PM	#123
Skip Hunt Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 37	I like both 30p and 24p. Actually, I liked 30p better in the beginning, but the aesthetics of 24p are really starting to grow on me. I just wish Apple would release a version of FCP that would take away a few of the hoops you have to leap through in order to use 24p. Steven, I remember you had to unload a couple DVX's way back due to funding issues. Are you back in the DVX boat now? Skip Hunt

February 7th, 2003, 05:44 PM	#126
Big Cochino Posts: n/a	Nobody has really answered the DP question: Where would NTSC 29.97 Frame-Mode fail and true 30p succeed? Why does the DP need it?

February 7th, 2003, 06:15 PM	#128
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Resolution, smezolution....the old traditional performance parameters still apply...like optical quality of the lens system. I submit the glass on this consumer cam is not up to par.

February 7th, 2003, 06:28 PM	#129
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Both the MX3000 and DVX100 use Leica optics. Also, the frame mode of the MX3000 gives you full vertical and horizontal resolution. Re: "In what situations would 29.97 Frame-Mode fail where 24p would succeed?" The DVX100's 24P mode uses 3:2 pull down so when viewing its footage on a TV, you'll also be seeing interlaced 29.97 frames, just like with the MX3000.

February 7th, 2003, 07:51 PM	#131
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	I'm not sure if that's correct either, however: "The MX300...provides suberb horizontal resolution equivalent to 1,530 lines of a broadcast camera." ---MX300A Brochure. Frame mode: "records full vertical and horizontal resolution." ---another MX300A brochure. GL1 and Optura PI manuals state that in frame mode/progressive mode the resolution is increased by 1.5 - both vertical and horizontal. So..., is this correct, or are these cam companies lying? According to Pana, the MX5000 plays back the max which miniDV is capable of, both in interlaced, progessive and interlaced 16:9 and progressive 16:9. But then the MX5000 has a way more video effective CCD pixels than the DVX100, and does the better 16:9. One problem though: where's the lux? (Couldn't help it!)

February 7th, 2003, 09:18 PM	#132
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	It's confusing, but here's how it works: GL1/XL1 - they use Pixel shift to increase the 240 lines per field to 360 line in one frame. Thus the "1.5 increase" in vertical. Optura PI is full frame progressive, but one chip. All Panasonic frame modes are GL1/XL1 methods. The MX5000 might be different, but I have not seen any hard evidence it's true progressive video. Adam Wilt did a great article in DV mag about frame mode. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

February 8th, 2003, 02:51 AM	#133
Mark Nicholson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Eldorado Hills CA Posts: 68	I have not seen any evidence that the MX5000 does full progressive scan either. You'd think Pana would point this out! Until they do, I say it uses the same old FRAME mode of earlier cams. I hope someone can find evidence to prove it either way... __________________ Sacramento http://eyepatchfilms.com 2x HD-250, BR-HD50, Media Composer

February 10th, 2003, 05:17 PM	#134
Brian Huey Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Seattle , WA Posts: 184	It seems from what I've read some of the DVX100's better picture w/ 24p or even 30p is do to the cinema gamma or whatever they call the altered gamma curve. Is there away to do this with software such as After Effects (hopefully the non-production bundle which I own). Premiere has a gamma adjustment but it's only a overall boost/decrease.

February 10th, 2003, 05:33 PM	#135
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Yes - you can do it in After Effects. Check www.adamwilt.com for a graph of the gamma curve changes. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com