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Old January 9th, 2017, 05:39 PM   #61
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

I think Sony should be fine. I mean, they knew this camera was coming down the road for a while now.

I think we know for sure that Sony will not ever under any circumstances match every incredible GH5 feature...lol...no friggin' way!

I think that Sony will fire back at Panasonic with an A7s-III. (which has always been the camera they challenged the GH4/DSLR crowd with anyway.) But how will Sony do it? It's my guess that they will add a stop or more of DR to that big beautiful sensor and clean up the signal to noise ratio buy another 1 or 2db or maybe 3db. Then they enable UHD 4:2:2 60p output over it's new HDMI 2.0 port.

That's it. That's all I see them doing. I bet they will just keep the standard XAVC-S 100Mbp/s 8 bit internal CODEC.

Now,...that could be one hell of a camera in a big rig if you have a Shogun to record ProRes externally. This will smoke a GH5 in final image quality. Especially in low light, no doubt.

I believe this GH5 is truly historic. It's going to be known as THE camera that forced everybody to do something they never wanted to do for $2000. I really have to tip my hat to Panasonic on this. They have allot of balls to push the marketing envelope and disrupt the entire industry like this.

Bravo Lumix,....bravo!

CT
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Old January 9th, 2017, 06:21 PM   #62
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

I don't see how it disrupts anything. Each manufacturer has carved out their own niche in the dslr market. Sony full frame, Canon APC, and Panasonic MFT. Each with their pros and cons. Users have the luxury of choice to pick what suits their needs. Life isn't always neatly defined where there are only winners and losers.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 06:35 PM   #63
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
...It's my guess that they will add a stop or more of DR to that big beautiful sensor and clean up the signal to noise ratio buy another 1 or 2db or maybe 3db. Then they enable UHD 4:2:2 60p output over it's new HDMI 2.0 port.
Well, the HDMI 2.1 specification just got released, and hopefully that will increase the pixel clock enough to do 10bit 4:2:2 4K 60p out.

One big thing for Sony to overcome is the simultaneous record and 4K HDMI output. Panasonic overcame it, now it's Sony's turn. For goodness sakes, the FS5 has this crippling issue too.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 07:20 PM   #64
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

So I'll admittedly go way out on the limb here and make a guess that Panasonic is not just buying a Sony IMX269 sensor but is also buying Sony's full pixel readout and scaling engine. Possibly even their new next generation LSI and 6k processing. (A6500 and A99-II) All this stuff is for sale if the price is right.

Yeah...I loved my FS5, I really did but that sensor is really showing its age these days. Its time for Sony to buy 2017 sensors from Sony Semiconductor and change that old FS raw protocal. I think the next FS body needs a modern 6k sensor matched to an appropriate 6k FS raw protocol. I mean, it can be the same protocol but with the new 6k pixel addresses. Then give that data configuration to Atomos and Convergent and hope they can figure out a way to deBayer it on their existing models. If not, they will need to redesign their recorders.

Hell,....im going to predict that a GH5 will literally the noise performance of an FS5 if not even beat it.

Its going to be very interesting to see somebody do that low light shootout. (I mean the A6300 already beats the FS5 in signal to noise ratio and detail)

If Sony doesn't agressively (and carefully) fight the GH5, I'd bet my life that Sony will lose significant customer numbers to the GH5 over the next 2 years.

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Old January 9th, 2017, 09:07 PM   #65
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

Agree Pete, it is not a fight as in a winner and a loser. That is an inappropriate metaphor. It is a competition for customer dollars which in this instance could well be a race to the bottom. But it won't be as both Sony and Panasonic are too savvy to go there.

If Sony loose significant customer numbers in this relatively small, to them, market segment it will be because there is no clear compelling business case for them to invest the R&D required to do otherwise. It will be, is already, has been for some time, a business decision driven first and foremost by a highly rigorous long term strategic plan totally bought into at the board level and secondly by other business opportunities with more compelling business cases competing for limited R&D dollars.

I agree with you Cliff, one thing you may be sure of is that Sony did not wake up the morning the full specifications of the GH5 were released and say, as we all did 'goodness gracious me, how about that'. They would have known months if not a year or two ago what was coming. If Sony had a compelling business case to compete in this market segment, to go head to head with the GH5, I suggest they would already be there, long long ago. My bet is that Sony has already lost many customers - full frame, APS-C, 1 inch - to the GH5 and that does not cause them concern as their focus, their quest for profit, is elsewhere driven by more compelling business cases.

While for us the GH5 might be seen as a game changer behind the closed boardroom doors the game already changed quite some time ago. It will not be business as usual in this market segment.

Just my opinion.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 09:51 PM   #66
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

This is a good overview of the camera.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 10:49 PM   #67
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

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Agree Pete, it is not a fight as in a winner and a loser. That is an inappropriate metaphor. It is a competition for customer dollars which in this instance could well be a race to the bottom. But it won't be as both Sony and Panasonic are too savvy to go there.

If Sony loose significant customer numbers in this relatively small, to them, market segment it will be because there is no clear compelling business case for them to invest the R&D required to do otherwise. It will be, is already, has been for some time, a business decision driven first and foremost by a highly rigorous long term strategic plan totally bought into at the board level and secondly by other business opportunities with more compelling business cases competing for limited R&D dollars.

I agree with you Cliff, one thing you may be sure of is that Sony did not wake up the morning the full specifications of the GH5 were released and say, as we all did 'goodness gracious me, how about that'. They would have known months if not a year or two ago what was coming. If Sony had a compelling business case to compete in this market segment, to go head to head with the GH5, I suggest they would already be there, long long ago. My bet is that Sony has already lost many customers - full frame, APS-C, 1 inch - to the GH5 and that does not cause them concern as their focus, their quest for profit, is elsewhere driven by more compelling business cases.

While for us the GH5 might be seen as a game changer behind the closed boardroom doors the game already changed quite some time ago. It will not be business as usual in this market segment.

Just my opinion.
Another interesting angle to see this GH5;

What is it that allows Panasonic to happily develop a camera with these extremely over the top specs and what is it about Sony that is negatively affecting them from doing the same?

What is it that has gotten Sony backed into a marketing corner?

Is Sony's current camera fleet way too crowded and too dense and is that strategy hurting them today?

Does Sony have too many products that are positioned too closely together to allow any of them room to breathe and compete with more aggressive features?

Is Panasonic's Pro product's marketing model superior to Sony's, allowing them to build and profit from a tremendously aggressive camera like the GH5 in a way that Sony just can't profit from?

One simple example of how twisted Sony's thinking can be is their use of SLOG-2/3. Look at the Alpha group and how they think. They give out SLOG-2/3 like it's candy! A7s/r series gets it. A6300/6500 gets it. Multiple RX Cybershots get it. Some of these are extremely cheap cameras. Meanwhile, over at XDCAM, the lowest camera allowed to have SLOG-2/3 is the $5000+ FS5. What?....Giving SLOG-2/3 to many of their lower XDCAM's would give them a great usable advantage and give the a one up over the competition. But nope,...somebody at XDCAM management is to afraid to do it. This is why a $1000 Cybershot RX100 will give you FAR more dynamic range than a rec.709, locked down, $3,200 XDCAM Z150. (and they use the same sensor...it's really sorta sad.)

Sony's "Alpha vs. XDCAM" is such a Jeckle & Hyde, two faced entity. One is a bull and the other is a bear. Alpha is cutting edge, FAST and aggressive while XDCAM is conservative, SLOW and relies heavily and constantly on recycled and repackaged electronics from other models. I dunno,....just how I see it lately.

“If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will," - Steve Jobs

Last edited by Cliff Totten; January 9th, 2017 at 11:30 PM.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 01:00 AM   #68
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

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I think that Sony will fire back at Panasonic with an A7s-III. (which has always been the camera they challenged the GH4/DSLR crowd with anyway.)
These 2 camera's have nothing in common at all, I think you just place them against eachother for the sake of having a discussion to see which one smokes the other one, just start with the price, the gh4 can be had for as low as 1100 euro, the a7sII is 3500 euro, that's over 3 times more expensive, full frame vs m4/3, 409600 max iso vs 6400iso just to name a few key differences.
Not even sure why the sony is brought up in this discussion.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 05:56 AM   #69
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

Well Panasonic have their Pro and Consumer split too. The GH5 is part of the consumer group and has specs that look close to the DVX200 with more flexibility. However the HC-X1/UX180 are only 8 bit and no vlog where as the FZ2500 a similar 1" sensor to the UX90 I think has vlog available and is in some respects a better camera than the UX90 for less money. Appears to just miss mostly XLR interfaces !!! Also can be controlled by the consumer WiFi app with preview control not available for the UX90 !! The HC-X1 and UX180 have no competition in the Sony range in my mind as they have UHD 60 etc though they are short of 10bit !!

My focus in ordering the GH5 is purely UHD 60P video with the opportunity to buy an Atomos Inferno and get UHD 60P 10bit 4:2:2 output. The combined cost of this setup is less than the FS5 that does not have UHD 60P. It will end up on a tripod in the theatre with a fast lens. For a general cam outdoors etc I think I would pick the FZ2500 and may go this way and sell my AX100. Been a Sony guy for a long time but the latest set of Panasonic cameras are hitting a lot of the things I want.

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Old January 10th, 2017, 08:23 AM   #70
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

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These 2 camera's have nothing in common at all, I think you just place them against eachother for the sake of having a discussion to see which one smokes the other one, just start with the price, the gh4 can be had for as low as 1100 euro, the a7sII is 3500 euro, that's over 3 times more expensive, full frame vs m4/3, 409600 max iso vs 6400iso just to name a few key differences.
Not even sure why the sony is brought up in this discussion.
You are right Noa, hehe....i think i did hijack the thread with Panny vs. Sony talk.

Yes, they are very different cameras but I suspect that they DO compete for the same customers to a certain degree. Look at me? I'm an A7s-II owner and i just pre ordered the GH5 myself.

Also, just because the GH5 is cheaper doesn't mean it's not comparable to Sony A7x models. In fact, I strongly suspect that the GH5 will hurt Sony A7x sales considerably, even with the sensor size difference. The fact that it IS cheaper and overflowing with crazy, never seen before features will make everybody think twice before buying a new Sony A7x.

So yeah,...they ARE different cameras but I'm sure they are competing over the exact same buyers wallets and pocket books.

Sorry for the thread hijack. ;-)

Last edited by Cliff Totten; January 10th, 2017 at 11:10 AM.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 02:24 PM   #71
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

It's crazy to think how fast equipment is changing/moving. Just a few years ago I purchased a Sony PMW500 body, this was their flagship model back then and was in high demand, low light sucked on this thing and the the body set me back 34k however it shot 50Mbps 4:2:2.

Fast forward now... a few thousand bucks gets you a camera that fits in your back pack fantastic lowlight 4K and bit rates I only dreamed of back then WOW.

I'm still a Sony fanboy as all my cameras are the Mirrorless ones (sold everything when the A7s came out) and now the GH5 is looking great.

Amazing how cheap everything is now.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 04:26 PM   #72
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

I just watch the GH5 in-depth look video, wow... they have packed everything into this thing and hang on... did he say 3hrs on one battery.

I don't know much about the GH4/5 and i'm going to look and learn a lot more I think. I stayed away from the GH4 and went all the way with Sony, I gota say the A7 series cameras are great however I find getting the right colours a challenge and I have always liked the look of Panasonic.

Ok, take my money.

I wonder what Sony will bring out?
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Old January 10th, 2017, 10:05 PM   #73
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

It's astonishing how much Panasonic has shoved into this GH5. I mean, My God, I have to buy it, I pretty much have no choice in the matter. Really, how in the heck does anybody expect me to resist so much for so little? It's like they are giving us a Lamborghini for the price of a Ford mustang.

As a crazy nutty die hard, faithful Sony fanboy,...realistically, what could I do? Say "no"?...Yeah right!

Panasonic has easily and very quickly seduced me with the GH5.

And now I'm about to cheat. Sorry Sony :-(
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Old January 10th, 2017, 10:40 PM   #74
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

Common Cliff, get over it; you can do it.. It's only tough the first time. I was a Sony fanboy too and I made the huge leap to Panasonic. Repeat after me 'I am done with Sony cams, done done done; that's it'. The hardcore Sony fanboys are in denial and will take a little longer to see the light ;-)

But seriously, the feature set the GH5 brings to the table is remarkable at that price. At any price what piece of kit has a matching set of specs?

Be excited as it is exciting. Laugh with joy and be merry!

Oh Panasonic, oh panny, for you I slap my fanny; panny panny panny (repeat ad nauseam) :-)
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Old January 10th, 2017, 11:09 PM   #75
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Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official

lol,...Oh John, I was only dramatically joking in the corniest way. ;-)

I must say that I'm dying to know what Sony's next chess move is.

Uggg,...The only thing is that I have allot of money invested in Sony glass. I wont be leaving my A7S-II rig whatsoever. I love that beast way too much and it has done amazing things for me. (much more than my FS5 did) But, I do have several Rokinon EF Cine lenses to use on the GH5. I'm just not looking forward to starting a new Micro 4/3 lens buying spree from scratch. That sucks.

I'll take it one day at a time with that GH5.

CT
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