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Sony HVR-Z7 / HVR-S270
Handheld and shoulder mount versions of this Sony 3-CMOS HDV camcorder.


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Old May 15th, 2008, 02:25 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
30 minute event = hour and a half + to dump tape, 30 minutes tops with MS/card dump -- you're editing before the first tape would be ingested.
In the entire history of film and video no one could do this -- and yet all the great work of a Century of motion pictures was created. Do you really believe that saving a few hours is going to actually make for better productions?

Video -- which is fast compared to film -- can hardly be said to have greatly advanced the art of moving pictures. In fact, I can't think of anything done with video that is "better" than what was done using film in the last century.

Unless one is shooting news -- speed is really not critical. I can't imagine wanting to start editing after shooting. I want good food and drinks, a night's rest, and time to let my mind wonder back over what I shot.

After using a harddisk camcorder for a year -- I still agree my initial feeling that a BUILT-IN harddisk is the way to go if SPEED is critical. And BD is even better.

SD cards, IMHO, are just as premature as P2. Obviously, some day EVERYTHING will be solid-state. But, just like laptops with solid-state storage -- that day is not now. Witness the problems you are having.

When solid-state wins it will not be FAT32! FAT32 is totally wrong for video!
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Old May 15th, 2008, 07:29 AM   #17
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I hear what you're saying Steve but I disagree.

Let's say I come back from a gig with two tapes of video and I need to transfer the footage before I go to bed. With tape capture I have an extra two hours lobbed onto the end of my day. With a 32GB Compact Flash, I just start the process and go take a shower and let it transfer the two hours plus footage by itself.

Some people may be having problems with this process but for me it is working quite well. Longer clips stitch back together with no problems and the fact that they are split up on the original card makes them easier to back up on DVD-R where I would have problems with the larger files not fitting.

There are still times when I like to use tape (hence the Z7 instead of an EX1) but when I go tapeless, the whole process seems to work quite well.
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Old May 15th, 2008, 08:43 AM   #18
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[QUOTE=
You may want to look into uninstalling the utility and reinstalling, and see if there are any updates as well
[/QUOTE]

It is not an installable utility. It runs without the need to install it.

kdbf
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Old May 15th, 2008, 10:07 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post

When solid-state wins it will not be FAT32! FAT32 is totally wrong for video!
Dear Steve,

When one wants to develop a device which records to removable media, such as Compact Flash or SD, one has to choose a protocol for formatting / storing the data on the media. This protocol provides for the directory structure and the structure for storing the data.

It would be great to just develop a new protocol, something better than Fat32 for video and audio, but then this would be proprietary and it would cause problems for users wanting to read the data on their computers. Of course, with the proper software, this new proprietary format could work flawlessly.

FAT16 (File Allocation Table - 16 bits) and FAT32 are available for use and work both on PC's and Macintoshes. FAT32 is licensed by Microsoft for use by others.

NTFS is commonly used on computers, but Microsoft does not license others to use this formatting/storage protocol.

So, we are really stuck with using a proprietary format, or using FAT32.

FAT32 works, if the proper precautions are taken:

1. The device writing the data has to be very smart when closing one file and opening another, so that no data or frames are lost in the process.

2. The user can not just read a portion of the files independently, such as placing one segment of the file on the timeline, then placing the next segment of the file next to it.

If this is done, then it will appear that audio or video or both are lost. This is especially true if the data uses a Long-GOP format.

3. What is required is that the various segments have to be stiched back together so that the original data is now seamless. This can be accomplished as the data is read from a media card to the computer.

So, a device developer could easily develop a new format for storing video/audio files on removable media. But would it be accepted by the users?
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Old May 15th, 2008, 10:48 AM   #20
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So, a device developer could easily develop a new format for storing video/audio files on removable media. But would it be accepted by the users?
That's exactly what the Sony transfer utility does. Will it be accepted by users? Well, I've accepted it, and so have quite a few others...
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Old May 15th, 2008, 11:50 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Laurence Kingston View Post
That's exactly what the Sony transfer utility does. Will it be accepted by users? Well, I've accepted it, and so have quite a few others...
Exactly! Once I got PMB installed and working correctly (and I blame my machine which is long overdue for a fresh Win-ders install...), it's been incredibly easy to work with the files/video. Sure, it's a little challenge to get going, but that's life on the bleeding edge.

I know that speed isn't everything, but I'll take every advantage to get to the edit faster (event/wedding), the longer it takes to get started editing, the more things get in the way... at least that's how it seems to work for me! Whether ingesting from a flash card or a HDD (and doesn't the HDD have the same formatting issues??), dumping the video in around 1/3 the time is worth it in my book, and maybe gives you that time to relax, have some drinks, etc! I like to see what I've got "in the can" ASAP, but then again I'm not making the "next great movie" except in the eyes of the guy/gal wanting to see it ASAP...
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Old May 15th, 2008, 12:31 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
Exactly! Once I got PMB installed and working correctly (and I blame my machine which is long overdue for a fresh Win-ders install...), it's been incredibly easy to work with the files/video. Sure, it's a little challenge to get going, but that's life on the bleeding edge.

I know that speed isn't everything, but I'll take every advantage to get to the edit faster (event/wedding), the longer it takes to get started editing, the more things get in the way... at least that's how it seems to work for me! Whether ingesting from a flash card or a HDD (and doesn't the HDD have the same formatting issues??), dumping the video in around 1/3 the time is worth it in my book, and maybe gives you that time to relax, have some drinks, etc! I like to see what I've got "in the can" ASAP, but then again I'm not making the "next great movie" except in the eyes of the guy/gal wanting to see it ASAP...

How did you get the transfer program (utility) to work? I can't seem to get either of the Sony utilities to work properly.
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Old May 15th, 2008, 05:28 PM   #23
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Stitching

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
Video -- which is fast compared to film -- can hardly be said to have greatly advanced the art of moving pictures. In fact, I can't think of anything done with video that is "better" than what was done using film in the last century.

Unless one is shooting news -- speed is really not critical. I can't imagine wanting to start editing after shooting.

FAT32 is totally wrong for video!
What's the weather like on your planet Steve?

Keith - have a read of this
http://www.sony.com.au/objects/Other...html/soft.html

Specifically the M2T File connection section.

SOME NLE's will automatically stitch for you - others don't but probably will in future patches.

Apple Final Cut Pro 6.02 and Edius 4.6 - DOES support stitching
Adobe Premiere CS3 - Needs stitching tool
Sony Vegas Pro 8.0 - Needs stitching tool for Z7 unit (but support stitching from DR60 Hard disk

Hope this helps.
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Old May 15th, 2008, 05:37 PM   #24
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Hello?? (knock)(knock)(knock).. Is this thing on???

Please try the suggestion for doing a binary join of the files.

It does work with footage from my DR60 when it spans multiple files. Works MUCH better than stitching it in your editing software.
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Old May 15th, 2008, 09:10 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by John Knight View Post
What's the weather like on your planet Steve?
No need to get nasty.

As I said, I've got a HDD camcorder and, compared to tape, I really don't like it. I've got my tapes going back to Beta. I really like having everything. I can't imagine speed ever being more important TO ME.

Until 12-months ago -- weddings were done with no problems using tape. Why, suddenly, is the world better because you can capture the night after shooting? What's wrong with starting the edit at noon on Monday? Capture the tapes while you have coffee and read your email and the newspaper. Do you get a huge bonus for getting done a few hours faster? If you don't, what's the big hurry?

Anyway -- it's just my opinion base on my year with non-tape camcorders. I'm not coming to take you baby away. Relax.

PS: Trust me -- FAT32 is not going to be used in a world of terrabytes. (In fact, I don't think it can go over 132GB.) And, it won't be NTFS either. There will be an Open standard.
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Old May 15th, 2008, 09:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
I can't imagine speed ever being more important TO ME.
Well, speaking as someone who tries to juggle a full-time non-video related job, a 7-year-old son, a wife, and still try to find time to edit, anything that shaves any time off the logging/capture process is a good thing in my book!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
PS: Trust me -- FAT32 is not going to be used in a world of terrabytes. (In fact, I don't think it can go over 132GB.) And, it won't be NTFS either. There will be an Open standard.
The Linux Ext2 or Ext3 system would be a good candidate.
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Old May 15th, 2008, 09:35 PM   #27
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Hi Steve,

I have say that going tapeless has been a godsend for me. What I do would fit more into the news type category even though its not news. I have to produce a product and hand it to the customer on a DVD within an hour of the end of the event. This wasn't realistically possible before I started using DVRs. It took a while to get my workflow efficient enough to make the desired timeframe but now I can take a 20 minute video do a motion graphic overlay and render it out to a DVD within an hour.

When I shoot weddings I use a mix of tape and DVRs. I've already paid for the DVRs so might as well use them right? They do make ingest much nicer but my HC3 tends to be hidden in a bush somewhere with a tape in it. Overall its a nice to have but doesn't affect timeline or how I put the product together.

This post up to here is a bit OT but the following is On Topic.

When I shoot video that spans multiple files onto the DR60 I join the files together using the method described in the Canon thread and I don't get any audio stutter or dropped frames at the splice point. Since my DR60 is a Sony product and using FAT32 I have high confidence file handling is done the same as it is on your CF recorder. I also suspect the same method to join the files together will take care of the problem. Best of all its a ZERO cost solution.
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