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Old February 28th, 2012, 09:26 PM   #16
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

Looks like about a dozen new cameras are coming -- all using 18.2MP chips. 18 must be the new 16.

Supposedly a new APS-C sized sensor coming for a Sony SuperZoom.

Something happen March 13.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 11:01 AM   #17
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

It's hard to believe that Sony would use an 18mp sensor for a pro video application. Pros hate interpolation and moire pattern. Grossly oversampled video is bad for resolution and bad for photosite size too. It's pretty much a bad thing no matter how you look at it for video.

If there is a new NEX coming at NAB this year, it's got to have the current super 35 sensor.

Although, I cant imagine what this new NEX would look like. It's impossible have a right hand zoom rocker, (no NEX or Alpha lens has motorized zoom) so I cant imagine it being a good "run and gun" camcorder.

The FS100 already fills the void so why would Sony release a new FS100 competitor?

A "pro" version of the VG20 with XLR audio and super 35 sensor?

It's odd.
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Old March 5th, 2012, 09:59 AM   #18
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

18Mp gives marketing a "bigger number" which is needed to get idiots to think of upgrading. Ye, it makes no difference in image compared to 16MP.

Under cover of a "new" sensor Sony could sneak in the firmware changes we all want. Of course, that could be done for the VG20, but Sony seems to like cameras every year.

If you worry about 18MP -- then you won't like their other option -- the NEX-7's 24MP sensor. Sony sees prosumers as consumer sheep who are fooled by bigger numbers. From their point of view WE should be willing to spend the $$$ to get an FS100. Keeping a big gap is part of their way of increasing profits.

PS: In writing a 2-part story on the true high-end (RED, F65, F3 with field recorder) I've come to the conclusion that most every videographer is making an error. We focus on DOF and sensitivity.

These are real issues, but I think latitude is even more important. That forces a move to 12-bit to 16-bit linear or 10-bit log. To do this cameras must get past AVCHD et al, to pure H.264/AVC.

I'm not sure RAW is needed. And, I'm not sure 4K is really needed. RED went much further than is necessary for video shooters. But, a QuadHD RAW camera would be nice.
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Old March 5th, 2012, 11:10 AM   #19
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

Steve, I agree - hard to see how paying full price for what is sure to be the last of the 8-bit gen high end cameras makes much sense, unless you have immediate need.

Just picked up a VG20 - figure it will do enough of what it needs to do (which for me is have S35 chip + interchangable lenses) - at a reasonable price. I love the image from the FS100, but lord is that a lot of money for an 8 bit cam w/o ND wheel, proper handle, or a viewfinder.

I'm willing to spend a little to hold on until the 10/12 bit cams come down the line... which may be announced as soon as April at NAB. The rest of my dough is going towards lenses and other support gear.
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Old March 5th, 2012, 11:59 AM   #20
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

The Chinese are building what they call an "S8" RAW camera. The chip is wider than a Super8mm camera as it is 2.5K. Uses Adobe CinemaDNG (each frame is a TIFF) so very short recording times -- like real film. Use all those wonderful 1960's Euro C-mount lenses. The really fast ones DO give a shallow DOF.

If it is only $2000-$3000 ready to shoot, it sure would be fun to play with. It's what I think Scarlet should have been. Great for film schools.

They are also doing an S16 and an S35. The later two use the CineForm codec. The company makes astro-cameras.

See: KineRAW-S35

As we all have noticed, the last decade has pushed camcorder prices from $3000 to $6000-$9000. Maybe the Chinese can bring prices back to "reasonable" levels. Supposedly the S35 will be $8000. That, of course, is big question. Quality, I don't see as an issue. Support, however, might be.
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Old March 6th, 2012, 01:41 PM   #21
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

Some frame grabs from the S8.

These are from a fairly tiny chip with 2.5x1.1MP -- yet to my eyes they have a real film look. So are we paying too much attention to a big chip and megapixels?

What do you think?
Attached Thumbnails
New NEX camcorder on March 31?-kineraw-s8p_with_konvas_matte_box_l1x.jpg   New NEX camcorder on March 31?-kineraw-s8p_with_angenieux_zoom_sony_plug_in_power_microphone_001e_960.jpg  

New NEX camcorder on March 31?-5.bmp   New NEX camcorder on March 31?-4.bmp  

New NEX camcorder on March 31?-3.bmp   New NEX camcorder on March 31?-2.bmp  

New NEX camcorder on March 31?-1.bmp  
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Old March 6th, 2012, 04:56 PM   #22
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

Steve, 1958 called -- they want their camera back!
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Old March 6th, 2012, 05:28 PM   #23
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

Hey, retro is *in* -- I think it looks pretty cool!
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Old March 6th, 2012, 10:29 PM   #24
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

In the pause before NAB, I decided to learn about CinemaDMG which is the RAW 12-but file format recorded to disk by the F8. First I added an Adobe Labs plugin to Premiere CS 5.5. Then downloaded a sample of ACAM dll "footage." After stumbling around I final found the magic adjustments to RAW panels. Wow. Want to design your own camera?

I'll post a sample soon where I chose a NEW White Balance to apply to the RAW data. This overrode the metadata on the camera. SEE:

Ikonoskop ACAM dll camera's CinemaDNG test - YouTube

Next I'll try the import via Resolve Lite and output a ProRes file for FCP X.

While this is all OT, it is just one more sign of what's coming beyond big chips and 4K2K.

PS: If these really sell for $2000 I think I'm a buyer. But, what did folks think of their image quality?


Attached Thumbnails
New NEX camcorder on March 31?-screen-shot-2012-03-06-5.28.59-pm.jpg   New NEX camcorder on March 31?-screen-shot-2012-03-06-8.14.53-pm.jpg  

New NEX camcorder on March 31?-screen-shot-2012-03-06-8.15.11-pm.jpg   New NEX camcorder on March 31?-screen-shot-2012-03-06-8.15.25-pm.jpg  

New NEX camcorder on March 31?-screen-shot-2012-03-06-8.15.42-pm.jpg   New NEX camcorder on March 31?-screen-shot-2012-03-06-8.15.57-pm.jpg  

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Last edited by Steve Mullen; March 7th, 2012 at 06:42 PM.
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Old March 8th, 2012, 03:46 PM   #25
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
...These are real issues, but I think latitude is even more important. That forces a move to 12-bit to 16-bit linear or 10-bit log. To do this cameras must get past AVCHD et al, to pure H.264/AVC....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
In the pause before NAB, I decided to learn about CinemaDNG which is the RAW 12-but file format recorded to disk by the F8. First I added an Adobe Labs plugin to Premiere CS 5.5. Then downloaded a sample of ACAM dll "footage." After stumbling around I final found the magic adjustments to RAW panels. Wow. Want to design your own camera?

I'll post a sample soon where I chose a NEW White Balance to apply to the RAW data. This overrode the metadata on the camera. SEE:
To my mind the biggest problem with CinemaDNG and most other RAW formats so far are the incredible data rates/sizes. It would be far more practical to roll out a 16 bit variant of MPEG-2 and/or MPEG-4 + metadata at 50 Mbps - 100 Mbps and it would likely do 99% of any other RAW format in a far smaller foot print.
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Old March 9th, 2012, 12:50 AM   #26
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

The S8 applies no compression. But, most all other cameras that record RAW use wavelet compression to reduce file size. So one moves beyond MPEG-2 and MPEG-4.

CineForm Wavelet compression is used by the S16 and S32 and RED.

Storage size -- which used to be a big concern -- is rapidly becoming a non-issue. 2.5K 24fps is about 100MB/s which is 6GB/m. A 12 minute run -- like a 400 foot magazine -- is only 72BG. An SSD can hold 128GB, so that's almost 20 Minutes. (Speed would need to be about 200MB/s.)

I've imported CinemaDNG into Premiere for editing.

I've also imported into AE and exported as ProRes 422 HQ. Then imported into FCP X which automatically generates ProRes Proxy in the background.

I've also exported, from AE, ProRes 4444 which nicely carries RGB as 12-bit values. This also works very nicely with FCP X because the proxy is ProRes Proxy.

Since AE outputs no Alpha data, no bits are used in the file. Thus the data are 12-bit4:4:4 RGB. This is a really cool way to work because FCP6/6 can do more than 5 streams of PR$$$ in real-time.

The nice thing is that CinemaDNG is free. I believe after importing into Photoshop one can make a template of the RAW correction. Then use that in AE. So much to learn!
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Old March 14th, 2012, 02:09 AM   #27
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Digital Bolex sound fantastic cheap and CF card recording & XLR

Products | DigitalBolex.com

2500$ Starter price

Specs
http://www.digitalbolex.com/wp-conte...6specsheet.pdf

Resolution 2048 x 1152 (Super 16mm mode) + 1920 x 1080 pixels (16mm mode)
Format Adobe Cinema DNG, TIFF, JPEG Image sequences
Colour depth 12 bit – 4:4:4
File size 2 to 3 MB per frame in RAW
Sensor Kodak CCD: 12.85 mm (H) x 9.64 mm (V) – Similar to Super 16mm
Pixel Size 5.5 micron (compared to the 4.3 micron size of many DSLRs)
Framerate up to 32 fps at 2K, 60fps at 720p, 90 fps at 480p
Sound Balanced, 2 channel, 16 bit, 48 kHz via XLR
Viewfinder 320240, 2.4” diagonal, with Focus Assist
Video out 640 x 480 B&W via ⅛” video jack (HD-SDI avail in separate unit)
Ports ⅛” video, headphone, USB 3.0, Audio XLR (2), 4-PIN XLR
Data Storage Dual CF card slots, SSD (buffer drive)
Power Internal battery, 12V External via 4 pin XLR port
Body Milled steel and hard plastic
Size (body) Approximately 5”H (without pistol grip) by 4”W by 8”D
Size (grip) 5”H by 2”W by 5”D
Lens mount C-mount comes standard; Optional PL, EF, B4
Weight 5lbs
ISO Options 100, 200, 400
Also in the box pistol grip, USB 3.0 cable, internal battery, 4 pin XLR Battery, cable, video cable, transcoder/raw conversion software

Last edited by Werner Graf; March 14th, 2012 at 02:10 AM. Reason: price
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Old March 14th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #28
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
The S8 applies no compression. But, most all other cameras that record RAW use wavelet compression to reduce file size. So one moves beyond MPEG-2 and MPEG-4.

CineForm Wavelet compression is used by the S16 and S32 and RED.

Storage size -- which used to be a big concern -- is rapidly becoming a non-issue. 2.5K 24fps is about 100MB/s which is 6GB/m. A 12 minute run -- like a 400 foot magazine -- is only 72BG. An SSD can hold 128GB, so that's almost 20 Minutes. (Speed would need to be about 200MB/s.)
With some frequency I record events that run 45 minutes to 2+ hours in length, continuous. Factor in multiple cameras and would you care to re-evaluate the difference between your approach & mine and the proposition of storage being a non-issue?

Keep in mind that for this price point the solution has to be one that will fly in the high-end consumer space. With all due respect, I do not believe the RAW formats we have seen so far pass that test.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 12:37 AM   #29
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

If you shoot things this long there is NO film camera you can use. I doubt even an F65 will work for you. You must live with the quality "video" provides. I could call these legacy cameras because they use compression technology that's a very weak link when compared to sensors. :)

I'm finding RAW very easy to work with. Import a 12-bit RGB CinemaDNG clip into AE and adjust RAW. THIS IS FUN. Set the desired color temp. Adjust sharpness. Create your own gamma curve. For example, create the amount of black compress YOU need.

Drop clip into a 16-bit composition and export to 12-bit RGB ProRes 4444 (no alpha). Every bit from the sensor has been processed in floating-point.

Import into FCP X where a ProRes Proxy is automatically made. You edit with the Proxy which is fully RT. (In fact, ProRes 4444 is multi-stream RT in FCP 7 on a MBP.)

After your edit, export to 12-bit RGB ProRes 4444 (no alpha). Tests show every bit from import to export is identical. Effects are rendered to 12-bit ProRes 4444.

Bottom-line, other than the deBayering process performed in floating-point -- done in your camera using 14-bit integer), there is perfect fidelity from sensor to production export.

There is no way any "video" camera can even hope to provide 4:4:4 color through a 4:2:0 codec. But, it's not just quality -- try passing a 12 stop dynamic range through an 8-bit codec. And, unless your camera's port outputs 12-bit 4:4:4 (like the F3) not even an external recorder can provide RAW quality. These are definitely not consumer cameras. They only cost a bit more than a VG20.

When RAW is combined with 4K2K, what we are working with now will look like DV.

What makes progress possible is summarized by Moore's law -- who I knew when we were both at DEC a long long time ago -- storage quadruples every 18-months. So, in fact, 2-hours will be possible.

PS: Of course, you can import CinemaDNG into Premiere and edit directly.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 02:09 PM   #30
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Re: New NEX camcorder on March 31?

I think there could be a "new law" pertaining to data storage... Not sure if it's "data expands to fill the storage provided" or perhaps "storage expands to accomodate the data".

Come to think of it, that's pretty much how "suff" and "space" has always worked, at least in my closet and garage...

The demand for storage of 1's and 0's is certainly growing at a fast rate - I joke about my first computer with the 30 MEGABYTE hard drive (yeah, and maybe 128K RAM)... I've got a micro SD that's so tiny you can lose it if you blink, and it's 32 GIGABYTES... seemed like a better deal than buying a 16G that I'd fill up fast even with "consumer" AVCHD video at 1080/60p.
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