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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
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Old January 27th, 2008, 01:55 AM   #1
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2 EX1 + FCP + KONA LH questions

2 questions:

I shot some EX1 footage this weekend using the 1080 24p HQ mode.

Everything looks great.

When I hook the camera up to my HDTV via the component cable, the image plays back fine and looks stunning.

When I import the footage into Final Cut Pro, the playback on my computer monitor is fine, but on my HDTV monitor (which is fed by my Kona card) the image plays back, but quickly goes out of sync.

I have many Kona playback settings to pick from, including 1080 24p, but this setting will not playback on a regular HDTV, right?

Most HDTV's can only play 1080i or 720p, right? Are those not the only 2 broadcast standards?

1. What's the best KONA setting to use to monitor my video so that it does not go out of sync on a regular HDTV?

2. When I am finished editing and want to make a DVD and an HDDVD, what export settings should I use?

Thanks!
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Old January 27th, 2008, 09:05 AM   #2
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The blackmagic cards have a 1080 23.97 -> 59.94 output selection, see if the Kona has the same. That should play a 24 fps timeline out properly to you tv.
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Old January 27th, 2008, 01:07 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Guglielmo View Post
The blackmagic cards have a 1080 23.97 -> 59.94 output selection...
Art, are you sure?

A friend has the BM Intensity Pro and he say's there is no mention of 2-3 pullup in the manual nor is there an option to turn it on in the BM card's control panel.

Or, do you mean that BM cards automatically add 2-3 pullup when fed 1080p24?

The Kona LH does have a CODEC setting for choosing types of pullup. But, the docs do not say if this setting is used on input and/or output.

So the question for Jay is -- what happens if you set the CODEC setting to 2:3:2:3? Does it the Kona now work?

PS: Jay, when playing HQ 1024p via component to your TV -- do you see lots of annoying strobing on horizontal pans or do you see "normal" film-like motion blur?
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Old January 27th, 2008, 01:35 PM   #4
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I opened the KONA LH Control panel. The 24-30 fps Conversion Pattern is set to: 2:3:2:3.

I wonder if I have to change some other setting in Final Cut Pro that will output a HDTV friendly signal? Do I have to tell it to add pull down or down convert to 1080i or something?

When using my old camera (the HVX200), I would shoot in 720 24pn mode. I think thats just 24 progressive frames per second video (no pull down). I would then just put the KONA playback setting to 720 59.94 and it would play back fine and in sync.

To answer your 2nd question:
Going out of component from the camera to a HDTV looks great. No problems at all. I imagine the camera is outputting something that would be friendly to a HDTV, like 1080i or 720p. I guess this means that it is adding pull down???
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Old January 27th, 2008, 01:37 PM   #5
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I don't see a playback setting that goes from 23.97 to 59.94. That would be nice. Perhaps its not located on the playback settings menu in Final Cut Pro. Maybe it's located somewhere else?
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Old January 27th, 2008, 01:49 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Jay Morris View Post
I don't see a playback setting that goes from 23.97 to 59.94. That would be nice. Perhaps its not located on the playback settings menu in Final Cut Pro. Maybe it's located somewhere else?
I too can't find a setting for adding pulldown when viewing 24p. Looking at FCP docs I find next to nothing on viewing 24p timelines other than sections on adding pullup to DVX100 NTSC video when writing to tape. Nothing on HD.

Do the docs say nothing because when they were written only the DVX100 shot true 24p?

Do they say nothing because they assume anyone working with 1080p24 must have a BM or Kona card -- and the cards docs should cover this?

Or, do the docs say nothing because FCP always adds pulldown on playback?

Perhaps FCP always does because how else is 24p displayed on LCD computer monitors that run at 60Hz? (I've never understood HOW the huge range of computer playback frame rates get sent to your laptop screen, Cinema display, or via DVI-HDMI to NTSC or PAL TVs!)
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Old January 27th, 2008, 01:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Morris View Post
I opened the KONA LH Control panel. The 24-30 fps Conversion Pattern is set to: 2:3:2:3.
And the output is set to 1080i59.94?

Which Kona do you have?
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Old January 27th, 2008, 02:03 PM   #8
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1080i 59.94 is not an option. 1080i 29.97 is an option, but it is out of sync. I have lots of 1080 p settings to pick from (like 1080p 23.97), but my HDTV goes black (I don't think it likes 1080p).

How do i force final cut pro to monitor 1080 24p. I think that my monitor wants 24p with pull down and 1080i, right?
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Old January 27th, 2008, 02:22 PM   #9
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I have the Kona LH
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Old January 27th, 2008, 04:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Morris View Post
1080i 59.94 is not an option. 1080i 29.97 is an option, but it is out of sync.

I think that my monitor wants 24p with pull down and 1080i, right?
OK -- AJA calls 1080i59.94 1080i29.97. It's the same thing.

And, yes any HDTV want's 60 fields per second for 1080i. So your setting is correct. So the Kona output must have pulldown either added by the card or by FCP. I don't think FCP does it and I sort of assumed setting the CODEC to 2:3:2:3 would do it.

One more possibility, try adjusting the little slider next to the 2:3:2:3 setting. AJA totally fails to explain what this does, but maybe at some value it will fix your sync problem.

Losing sync over time doesn't seem like a pulldown problem present or absence problem.

Hmm -- does the LH need an external sync source?
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Old January 27th, 2008, 05:19 PM   #11
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I adjusted the slider bar. It did not help.

Just to be clear, it's more than out of sync. It kind of looks like slow motion.

Thanks for all of your help, Steve.

Perhaps the only person who can help me is someone with an EX1, Final Cut Pro and a Kona LH card.

Maybe Kona does not work with 1080 24p XDCAM. I hope it does. It's not fun editing on a computer monitor.

Just a side question:

If broadcast standard of HD is 1080i or 720p, why would you shoot in 1080 24p mode? How do you deliver that type of video to the public?
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Old January 27th, 2008, 06:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Morris View Post
Perhaps the only person who can help me is someone with an EX1, Final Cut Pro and a Kona LH card.

Maybe Kona does not work with 1080 24p XDCAM. I hope it does. It's not fun editing on a computer monitor.

If broadcast standard of HD is 1080i or 720p, why would you shoot in 1080 24p mode? How do you deliver that type of video to the public?
The ATSC standard allows 1080p23.98, but as far as I know it is not used. Probably because all? VTRs operate at 60i. So, to record on tape, something needs to add pulldown.

Some posters claim that simply setting the OUTPUT to 1080i29.97 automatically adds pulldown. If this is right, maybe the card or HDTV is bad. Try down-converting to NTSC and hooking up a different TV.

PS: Which gives me another idea. Is there a Kona setting for 1080p23.98? (You need the extra Kona setups.) And, can you turn 2:3:2:3 OFF? Maybe your HDTV will accept 1080 at 24fps.
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Last edited by Steve Mullen; January 27th, 2008 at 07:18 PM.
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Old January 27th, 2008, 07:21 PM   #13
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Just got this:

User Name: Jeremy Garchow
Post Subject: Re: HDCAM master 23.98 to 29.97

--------------------------------------------------

Don't worry about the Kona CP, this one you can do from FCP.

Use the View > Video Playback menu and change it to 1080i29.97 10bit or 8 bit or RGB, whatever you are using for your monitor. Keep your timeline in 23.98.

Jeremy
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Old January 27th, 2008, 09:45 PM   #14
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That's what I've been doing. Maybe my computer is not fast enough to play 1080 24p footage through Kona?

I've always done DVCPRO HD before.

Mac OS 10.5.1
Dual 2 GHz PowerPC G5
4.5 GB DDR SDRAM

1 TB G Sata Drive

FCP 6.0.2
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Old January 27th, 2008, 11:47 PM   #15
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Jay, I doubt that. I just got this email:

"So, Kona can sense the timeline play rate is 23.98"

Yes. In fact the Kona has magical spidey senses. Just don't stand around when it starts shooting webs. It's messy.

As far as pulldown, you can set the pulldown pattern in the KonaCP that you mentioned earlier. For the most part, I'd image you want 3:2 which is the default.

Jeremy

------

I can't figure-out what's going on. By chance is the video ProRes?
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