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Old May 9th, 2011, 04:32 PM   #1
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Amateur Recital Video Production

I am VERY new to videography. I just purchased a Sony HDR-CX160 that I am hoping will do well for producing a video for a dance recital. I have been asked to record the recital and create DVDs that can be purchased. Last year the recital was done by a professional, but the quality was not that great. The studio feels that they could probably get as good of quality from an amateur at a much lower cost and I am hoping for the same.

I have no concern with the DVD production, but I do with the quality of video I might be able to capture with this camera. Does anyone have any thoughts or advice? The setting will be an old music hall that will be dark except for the stage lighting. I'm really hoping this camera will do an okay job.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 05:13 PM   #2
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

Well, the cost will be lower...

The CX160 is a small chip CMOS, and while Sony has done wonders with these, I'd have my doubts as to how well it will perform under difficult lighting conditions. I use Sonys myself, but the higher end consumer ones, which have larger sensor chips and thus better deal with lighting of the sort you're talking about...

FWIW, I'd never cover something like this with less than TWO cameras, 3-4 preferably. I have some doubts as to the "professional" they used, but without knowing more it's hard to say what happened. I shot some stuff as favors, with lower end cameras, and well, it showed... I found the results painful personally, and I learned the differences better cameras make rather quickly. You don't have to spend HUGE amounts, but the lower end consumer cams can only do so much... they are what they are.

Don't want to overly discourage you, I'd suggest you take the camera to the venue and TRY it to see how well it does (heck, I just bought a sub $200 discounted, 2011 issue, Sony point & shoot camera that might do OK... I was impressed in my low light tests...). Consumer grade stuff gets better all the time, and some is actually pretty impressive in practical performance situations.

There's an awful lot to shooting a stage production, and so you probably should attend any live rehearsals to try to find the problem points. If there's more than one show, shoot them ALL, and mix together the good bits to make up for the one camera issue - remember you can't shoot "wide" and "close-ups" with ONE camera... you'll have to compromise or record multiple shows, while trying to get the needed framing.

WIthout knowing how "bad" last year's production was, it's hard to say whether you'll be starting out ahead or behind...
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Old May 9th, 2011, 06:11 PM   #3
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

Here's a play I shot by myself, using 2 cameras. One was fixed wide, the other close-up. In between close-ups I'm whip panning back and forth, then editing the pans out in post.
YouTube - My Son Pinocchio-Toys
I'm recording the sound directly off the mixer board.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 07:44 PM   #4
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

Hi Brad,

As has already been mentioned there is a lot to filming a live theatrical production. I don't do as many as I use to so I've reduced down usually to only two cameras. I have done single camera shoots. Here's one I did last year:

They did two shows so as Dave has suggested I shot both shows and planned out the shots so that I could edit them together. The first show I shot mostly wide since in general the first show is where performers make more mistakes. Also, since I had the experience of capturing it once already, I could anticipate what shots I wanted to get for the close ups and focused shots.

The biggest difficulty you'll most likely have with the camera you're using will be controls. I use a Canon HV20 as a backup cam and while it has the ability to allow me to lock exposure, gain and such, it is not meant to allow me to really make adjustment during the performance. Lighting during most dance shows is really taxing on your camera operators. It's always a balance between capturing the changes in lighting without blowing out the picture or not getting anything at all because it's so dark. So during filming I'm always making minor adjustment to the iris. Also, focusing is a huge issue. Close ups will kill you without having a good focusing ring on a lens or better yet a follow focus. I measure out target points prior to the performance and mark focus on my FF so as the dancers go to the different regions of the stage I can get critical focus.

Sound is another issue. I only use direct board feeds for announcements and such. Remember their mixing for the venue and not for video. Usually I get a sound track of the music and mix that along with two mics placed mid house, two stage mics to capture taps, dancers expressions, etc. and another pair of mics placed back of house. Mixed all in post.

After a while you'll get it into a routine but it does take more than people think to get a decent stage show on video.

Good luck and let us know how things go.

Garrett Low
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Old May 10th, 2011, 10:18 AM   #5
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

I shoot All State Choirs in my area, I have 2 events coming up this month, and my setup consists of 3 video cameras a Sony AX2000, a Canon HG21,and Canon HG10....
The HG21 is stationary for the group shot, The AX2000 is used for closeups and pans, and the HG10 is for the musicians ...
All 3 cameras are connected VIA a HDMI switch to a Dell 24" Monitor, so I can flip between each to make any corrections if needed, 2 of my video cameras are attached to Bescor motorized heads, so I can pan and tilt each via a remote controller..Record,zoom and focus are controlled by a Monfratto Lanc for the Sony, and a remote for the 2 Canons since they are not Lanc capable...I basically never have to leave my seat when the show begins....The Canons do a very good job even with the harsh stage lighting with their HD footage compared to the Sony AX2000 even though they have less Bells and whistles in the settings, but I know their limitations and always keep that in mind during the shoot.
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Last edited by David Wayne Groves; May 10th, 2011 at 01:51 PM.
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Old May 10th, 2011, 10:54 AM   #6
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

Thanks to all for the advice thus far.

This particular recital that I will be capturing is going to be approximately 5 hours long. Most of the performances are going to be groups of dancers. I am thinking that a majority of the shooting will be fixed wide with a small amount of panning and zooming during smaller groups or solos and when awards are being administered.

This whole situation is coming about as follows. My wife asked the studio director if she was planning to use the same videographer as last year and expressed concerns with the quality of video that we received for a $40 purchase. Conversation led to the studio director asking if we would be interested in doing the video ourselves. I made her very well aware that I am not a professional and have no experience doing this type of event and that I have no idea what to expect from the equipment I have available to me. Since time is running short and she hasn't yet hired someone, she asked if I would give it a shot. I reiterated my concerns and she mentioned that the only concern she has is "not having any video at all." OK. I'm going to give it a shot.

I have no idea what type of equipment last year's videographer had, but I do know there were two cameras and operators set up side by side. I do not know how much mixing and/or editing they did between the two cameras or if one was strictly used for backup. I do know that most of the video was out of focus, panning and zooming were very shaky, and shots were not captured well. I am thinking and hoping that I can produce something at least as good as (hopefully better than) last year.

Here is a list of the "simple" equipment I will be using:

Sony HDR-CX160 Camcorder
Transcend 32 GB Class 10 SDHC Flash Memory Card (Storage)
Sony VCT-R640 Lightweight Tripod
Azden AZSMX10 SMX-10 Stereo Microphone (there's an input on the cam for a mic, but no accessory shoe so I'm not sure how I am going to mount the external mic - I haven't received it yet)

I am planning on shooting in HD - High Quality (FH) mode and editing and converting to DVD format later (probably 2 discs with about 5 hrs of material total). I will need the AC power adaptor plugged into the camera.

I know that Pros have a lot better equipment than what I currently have available to me. I will be making everyone aware that this will be an amateur production - by no means do I intend to pretend I am professional. I am only hoping to make a decent video production.
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Old May 10th, 2011, 11:35 AM   #7
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

Do you have enough storage on the 32 gig card? I'm not familiar with the camera, but 5 hours seems like it will exceed the storage limit. I would recommend having another card and plan on changing in order to not fully fill the card. I would also recommend getting another camera as a back up. Even if it's an SD camera that you have or borrow, just in case anything happens to the main camera. Any image, even SD, is better than no image at all. If you have any failure or something goes corrupt than you won't have anything. Of course another HD camera would be best, but anything is better than nothing. 5 hours is a long time of shooting, even if there are some intermissions. Borrow or rent another camera from someone. Good luck.
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Old May 10th, 2011, 11:55 AM   #8
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

A side bar but you SHOULD be aware that the inclusion of audio in this video may very well be contrary to the copyright of the artists who recorded it or their management.

Not saying I've never done dance recitals, I have. But when I became aware of the legal implications I stopped.

I know this isn't the question you asked but be aware that what you are doing MAY not be technically legal.

And it doesn't matter whether the DVDs are for sale or not, BTW...
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Old May 10th, 2011, 12:24 PM   #9
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

You can get decent results for staged shows with consumer cameras.

Your biggest problem with be exposure. Left to themselves, little consumer cameras will often blow-out the dancers under the bright lights, especially in a high-contrast stage environment. Learn to use the manual exposure. But that isn't necessarily enough. The little LCD screens aren't exactly accurate and can make you think things are over-exposed when they aren't.

Does any of this make sense?

Use your camera as much as possible, shoot some rehearsals, and hopefully you'll have an idea of what you are doing by the time the show rolls around. GOOD LUCK!
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Old May 10th, 2011, 01:03 PM   #10
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

Thanks again for all the tips and advice.

The recital is Sunday, May 22 and there is a full dress rehearsal on Thursday, May 19. Hopefully the rehearsal will be under the same lighting conditions as the actual performance so I can try different settings and see the results before the show date.

I'm sure I'll be asking more questions before the big event!
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Old May 10th, 2011, 01:24 PM   #11
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

Don't forget that audio is half of video. It's the quality of the sound that sets amateur and professional apart. Will any of the performers be mic'ed? Will audio tracks be used? If so, you'll want to have a recorder connected to the sound board which you can sync later in post. If you rely solely on the on-camera mic, then you will most definately appear amateur.

BTW, Shaun is right. You are most likely going to be making a "bootleg" DVD and violating several laws. Like Shaun, this is the reason I stopped doing this type of work.
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Old May 10th, 2011, 01:48 PM   #12
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

I'm involved with dance shows from a production viewpoint - it could be the video elenet, or often lighting and sound - and lighting and video frequently fight it out. I just took a few clips from a production from a while back where the venue had been hired and the in house team had been asked to design the lighting. If you look you will see that some sections have dark blue saturated colour. In this case, Congo Blue 181. It's a really gorgeous colour, but very dark - and it has very strange spectral balance, Plays havoc with cameras. Two cameras (JVCs if it helps) coped quite well - but note the deep blue is not that deep - certainly in the venue it was VERY blue. However, the rear camera, front of house was a fair way away, and was a Sony - with a lens with extender, and the blue light was, in reharsal, noticed and the decision made to chuck in extra gain - the results are very poor - however, the point is that the colour is much better - certainly more like what it really was. We spend most of our time white balancing to remove subtle tints, but in theatres, especially for art genres like dance, forget the pastel colours and hit them with the big guns. For info, the blue lighting was around 20KW worth - but you'd not notice this.

Cameras all perform differently in low light, and in saturated colour. Focusing is also much more difficult - especially on saturated reds.

Here's the clip
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Old May 10th, 2011, 07:15 PM   #13
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

Brad - a couple things offhand...

The auto settings of the Sonys seem to handle backlight and spotlight situations fairly well, so you may find the auto settings work reasonably well, and quite possibly faster than you can adjust what little you can adjust on that small camera. You're going to be relying on the built in "brains" of the camera, there's not a lot of adjusting you'll be able to or even want to attempt, that's the facts of a smaller consumer camera. BUT, the Exmor R CMOS with the in camera processing isactually fairly good...

Focus won't be a big problem as that small camera/chip will have fairly deep DoF, although you'll have to watch for focus hunting with dramatic lighting, it can be a major reason to set focus manually.

You should at least consider "dual audio" - can you get a CD recording from the house deck? The shotgun may or may not improve your audio acquisition, you should try it and see with headphones before deciding. You can either get a small flash bracket (a bit clunky) or a shoe adapter (they run about $10-15 on eBay for plastic import versions, solid machined ones are available) that should fit the Sony AiShoe and give you a cold shoe to mount to.

Storage wise, an hour is about 8G of data, more if that particular camera records 24 bit rather 17 Mbps (not 100% familiar with the CX160)... you should have a bit more memory available.

The thing that scared me the most was the tripod... I'm guessing that's one of the ones with the LANC, hopefully the one that connects to the A/V jack on the camcorder, so it's of some use, but the heads and for that matter the legs on those are BARELY going to be stable, pans will be atrocious, tilts worse, and that's being generous from my experience with those inexpensive pods...

I've got relatively cheap "junk" in the tripod department, but the Sunpaks and an old Focal have fairly heavy, sturdy legs - they are pretty stable, and very tall, most importantly, to shoot over heads. The Sunpak heads hold the camera in place (can't ask for more...), the old Focal one actually has a fairly nice fluid action... that's the ONLY one I pan or tilt with, and I've added a couple lightweight Bogen heads to the mix that I may try mounting on the Sunpak legs.

I know you're probably on a tight budget, but you might consider asking around to see if anyone has a decent old tripod laying around in their garage or something, and as long as you're going "low budget", at least consider one of the new Sony P&S line (I think the DSC WX9 is $220 retail, and BB had it on sale a few weeks back for even less). You'd of course have to double your memory requirements and battery/power supply (oops ALMOST forgot you'll need multiple batteries for a 5 hour gig!!), but it would give you a usable wide shot, (there's a 30 minute clip limit in the P&S line, but you can stop and restart), then you could concentrate on the close ups. The new 16.2 "R" CMOS in these P&S cams is really pretty good for video (may even be the same chip as is in the CX160?), seems to handle low light fairly well considering how small the chip and cameras are.

If you've got any basic machining skills, it's pretty easy to make a simple add on bar that allows you to mount more than one camera, or there are some simple clamp mounts that would work - I've used both, I now have a custom "3 head hydra" tripod head system, plus a Pedco Ultrapod I lash to the upright shaft for another angle (usually the "wide shot"). My rig is a bit over the top, but since most of the stuff my kids are in is performed on a VERY wide stage, it's a "3 zone" situation... so 4 cams is about right!

Hope this is all helpful, just going from the top of my head on "things I learned while shooting stage productions"...
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Old May 10th, 2011, 07:34 PM   #14
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

Originally Posted by Brad Ridgeway View Post
Thanks again for all the tips and advice.

The recital is Sunday, May 22 and there is a full dress rehearsal on Thursday, May 19. Hopefully the rehearsal will be under the same lighting conditions as the actual performance so I can try different settings and see the results before the show date.

I'm sure I'll be asking more questions before the big event!
Okay, here's more advice.

First, get several cards and shoot in FX, not FH. Dancing is often high-motion, high-contrast action. The more compression you use, the more likely you will get artifacts. FX has less compression than FH. (That is why it uses more file space.) So, just get more cards.

Absolutely beg, borrow or buy a second camera and put it on a tripod. Virtually any HD camera can work but it is best to use another CX model so you won't have to think about color matching or differences in controls. Also, for this length of time, it is good to get a camera with enough hard drive space or cards or flash memory. Five hours is too long for you to have to worry about changing tapes every hour. Do you know anybody else who has a CX you could borrow? (Or an XR?) If you are considering doing this again, but a second one. Buy a used CX cam if you can find one. Virtually any tripod will work with a locked-down camera.

Having a second camera on a tripod (especially when working with tiny consumer cams) is one of the biggest things you can do to make your production look like something people will actually want to pay for. Heck, back in the previous century, I started recording dance recitals and festivals with Hi-8 and Digital 8 cameras, and the multiple views, clear focus and steady shots are why people were willing to buy the resulting videos. Really, having a cut-away shot makes all the difference in the world for things shot with little cams and makes it much less stressful for the kind of extended shooting you will have to do. Having a cut-away shot to cover most zooms and pans is an absolute blessing for your editing and the viewer.

Set your second cam up in a place with a significantly different angle of view. If you are shooting from the right side of the room, put your other cam on the opposite side. Maybe in a front balcony in a different part of the room. This avoids the dreaded "jump cut" when editing and gives some visual relief. Even if you are letting both cameras just roll, it still gives the varying views that folks are conditioned to expect. Having the second camera with a very different angle of view can also mitigate color differences when you use different brands of camera.

Get the second cam just close enough to the stage that you can fill the field of view without zooming. You want to be able see faces in the video. Plus, zooming in limits how wide the camera's iris can open, and you want a wide iris for any dim lighting situations.

How tightly you zoom depends on who and what you are shooting. Zoom close only when shooting for the parents of young children in the performance --- they are paying to see their kids' faces. Otherwise, dancers want to be able to see feet to face, and sometimes more when the arms are raised. (Yet another reason to have a second camera for cut-aways.)

To avoid the previous videographers' problems with out-of-focus video, put the cameras on manual focus with maximum depth of field. (I'll explain how in a moment). You also do this to avoid "focus hunting" which can be caused by patterned backdrops, lights going to black between numbers, and "artistiic" lighting situations, as well as closer dancers pulling the focus from dancers who are further away. Here is how you do it. Zoom in on something on the back part of the stage, to maximum zoom. (If the CX160 has "expanded focus" on the viewscreen, enable that, too). When you are sure the focus is sharp, switch to manual focus. If the CX160 is like the other CX cams, just press the button in the middle of the control knob on the front of the camera. Now back out to your normal shooting range. This gives you "depth of field" and the camera will be in focus as you zoom in and back during the show.

Adjust the auto exposure for theater lighting. For CX cams, go into the "Manual Settings" menu, select "AE Shift" and bump it down to -3. This helps deal with stage lighting. If you want to read more on this, Ron Evans has a number of postings in other dvinfo forums about using CX/XR/CR cams for theatrical shoots.

Set both cameras to use indoor white balance. Better yet, bring a large white posterboard up on stage under full lighting before the shows start and use the "One Push" white balance setting. (Read the manual on how to do this.)

If there will be dimly lit or dark stage performances, turn on the "low lux" setting on your CX. (I think the CX160 has this.)

Turn off the steadyshot. Using it (particularly the active steadyshot) will do weird things when you start to pan or raise and lower the camera/) You are using a tripods, so turn it off.

If the productions will be using spotlights or if the stage lighting is not even, go into the menu and turn on spotlight mode. (I'm not sure if the CX160 has this or not, but check and use it if it does.) This keeps faces from being grossly overexposed when a spotlight hits them.

Take a small point and shoot cam with a flash. Get your cameras rolling before a performance starts. Stand in front, in view of both cameras and set off the flash. This allows you to sync the video from the two cameras. (The flash is -- usually -- 1/30th second which is one frame of video. Match the frames and the video and audio are in sync.)

Audio will be an unmitigated bear. Your external stereo mike would be best placed on a mike stand. That avoids picking up camera handling noises. I do not know how big the venue is but I'd consider putting your stereo mike on a stand on the floor in front of the stage (is their an orchestra pit?) and running cable extensions back to one of the cameras. Is anybody bring live musicians? Will they be playing through the house sound system or from the stage or orchestra pit. If so, you will get better audio with the mike down front and center. (Might be a lot of extension to buy and long unshielded cords might pick up hum and interference, so test it out beforehand.)

You might be able to record from the house sound system panel but you would need more equipment for that. You could use a digital audio recorder (I've got an mp3 recorder with which I've taken a feed from a panel's unused earphone out to the line-in jack on the mp3 thingie) but the internal clocks on many of these devices tend to drift out of sync with the camera audio. That means you will spend editing time trying to match up wave forms and making sure that they stay matched. If you are willing to risk yet another copyright infringement charge, you could get copies of the CDs or mp3 or iPod files they use for playing during the shows and drop those files into a performance audio track. You will still need to check sync as you edit, but it can give you much cleaner sound with stereo separation, too boot. You lower or fade down the volume on the house sound during the edit of the dance and fade it back up for applause. (Be judicious; some dances will have a lot of audience response and you want to keep that in the audio.) While this copyright infringement is not as likely to attract the attention of copyright enforcers as, say, running a site for pirated tracks, it is actually just as much a violation as the dancers use of the music for a public performance.

By the way, have you checked with the theater to see if they charge fees for recording or video? Some venues do.

It might be possible to place a camera next to the audio and light panel and take a feed directly from the panel to the mic-in jack on a small camera. That avoids sync probelms but you would need to buy or borrow an adapter like a Beachtek, Juiced Link, or Studio One to take line level feed into CX cam's mic jack. (Do not just hook an earphone or line out jack from the panel directly to a camera's 1/8th inch (3.5mm) microphone mini-sport!!!) The adapters are small passive pre-amps that take in both line level and XLR microphone inputs and output them to cameras through the small mini-stereo plug that goes into the camera's mic jack. For more money, these companies also make slightly larger active, powered preamp units of which Juiced Link's seems to be the one that got the most favorable reviews from DVinfo members. These are cost as much or more than your CX160 and are probably out of the question.

So, to sum up: (a) absolutely use at least two cameras, one locked to a full stage view the other with a different location for zooming closer; (b) set focus manually with depth of field; (c) use indoor or one-push white balance and adjust the AE setting; (d) use tripods; (e) get several SD cards and shoot in FX mode; (f) use a flash to sync your cameras; and do what you can for audio.
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Old May 10th, 2011, 08:05 PM   #15
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Re: Amateur Recital Video Production

Audio recording for dance is actually very simple: don't even try. Jay already said this but I'll just reiterate for emphasis. Use the on-cam audio for sync and all the screaming and applause only. It's fine for that purpose.

For the music, just borrow the CD they played off of in the booth and import it directly into your editor. Drift isn't an issue with a 3-minute piece, becasue you'll be cutting out all the dead spaces anyway.

There is no sound to dance unless it's tap, and even then it always sounds like it's clipping anyway. Fidelity is not an issue.

Concerts -- band, orchestra, choir -- sure, audio is much more than half the show. But dance-- hell, you're already incredibly illegal anyway so just take it straight from the CD. It's not any more or less illegal to do that than to record it via your mics.
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