Interlace progressive video? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Windows / PC Post Production Solutions > What Happens in Vegas...

What Happens in Vegas...
...stays in Vegas! This PC-based editing app is a safe bet with these tips.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 10th, 2011, 01:10 PM   #1
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 8,421
Interlace progressive video?

I just had a customer who cannot play her DVDs, and I strongly suspect it is because the DVD is progressive. Most of my customers have no trouble, but sometimes the parents cannot use their older players.

I'm wondering if I should interlace my footage for DVD?

It is common knowledge that Vegas doesn't deinterlace well. I've never interlaced progressive footage before, seems counterintuitive, but I want my DVDs to work for my customers also.

What happens when Vegas is used to convert 720p video to 480i, are the results as bad as when the reverse is done?
__________________
http://JeffHarperVideo.com
The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described.
Jeff Harper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2011, 03:02 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London, UK
Posts: 291
Re: Interlace progressive video?

Jeff,

Whenever I render progressive video, (25p mostly) Vegas forces it into 25psf. Any player should recognise the flags and play this in the correct cadence, i.e. 25p. If you downconvert from 720p (I assume 60p) to 480i it should resample so would benefit from a low-pass prefilter to reduce aliasing.

Steve
Steve Game is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2011, 03:21 PM   #3
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 8,421
Re: Interlace progressive video?

Thanks Steve. Vegas is not doing that with my footage. Rendered footage is progressive. for 29.97 frame rate there is no such option, that only applies to 24 and 24p I believe. Vegas does that to your footage because it's 24 fps, not because it's progressive, at least that is my guess.
__________________
http://JeffHarperVideo.com
The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described.
Jeff Harper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2011, 03:45 PM   #4
Jubal 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 872
Re: Interlace progressive video?

It's far more likely that it won't play because of the incompatibility between the player and home-burned media (which doesn't happen often, but it happens). If it's a format DVD Architect will author a DVD with, then any player can play it. It's probably the physical disc itself which is the problem.
David Jimerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2011, 03:48 PM   #5
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Posts: 769
Re: Interlace progressive video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Harper View Post
I just had a customer who cannot play her DVDs, and I strongly suspect it is because the DVD is progressive. Most of my customers have no trouble, but sometimes the parents cannot use their older players.

Nope.
Don't bother going down the path of re encoding..

Let us know which DVD media, and method you're burning.
Peter Manojlovic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2011, 05:11 PM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London, UK
Posts: 291
Re: Interlace progressive video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Harper View Post
Thanks Steve. Vegas is not doing that with my footage. Rendered footage is progressive. for 29.97 frame rate there is no such option, that only applies to 24 and 24p I believe. Vegas does that to your footage because it's 24 fps, not because it's progressive, at least that is my guess.
Jeff,

My footage is 25p (from a Canon 550D) so I have the option of keeping it as a progressive stream or creating a psf stream by asking Vegas to make it 576i/25 (you might call it 50i). In my experience, Vegas, (both Platinum Studio 10 and Pro 10) recognises the frame sequence as progressive and packages odd and even lines into separate fields. On playback, these fields are displayed simultaneously, therefore recreating a true progressive cadence.
The disc will also play as an interlaced stream showing image movement only every other field, so an aged DVD player will treat it as interlaced but the visual image will look like progressive. Just as we in 50Hz land have been used to feature films on TV for 60 years, (shot as 24 frames per second and run 4% fast at 25fps) and seen on ordinary sets as 25 non-interlaced frames.

I see no reason why you couldn't ask Vegas to render to 59.94i which will produce a psf stream. Vegas will interlace the full frame video on the timeline merely by sending the odd and even lines to their respective fields.

Steve
Steve Game is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2011, 07:59 PM   #7
Jubal 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 872
Re: Interlace progressive video?

No reason to do that.
David Jimerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2011, 09:42 PM   #8
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 8,421
Re: Interlace progressive video?

I'm using Ridata DVD +R DL, best printable DL discs I can find. Yuden doesn't make them that I can find.

I burned multiple extra copies, and the ones I kept play fine for me. They've worked fine for everyone else since I started using them a month ago, except for one customer, and that problem resolved itself. Upon reflection, I'm sure my customer's player is very old and cheap.
__________________
http://JeffHarperVideo.com
The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described.

Last edited by Jeff Harper; November 11th, 2011 at 04:26 AM.
Jeff Harper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2011, 02:56 AM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London, UK
Posts: 291
Re: Interlace progressive video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Harper View Post
I'm using Ridata DVD +R DL, best printable DL discs I can find. Upon reflection, I'm sure my customer's player is very old and cheap. Yuden doesn't make them that I can find.

I burned multiple extra copies, and the ones I kept play fine for me. They've worked fine for everyone else since I started using them a month ago, except for one customer, and that problem resolved itself.
In the UK, its the cheaper players that are more tolerant of disc brands, even more so 10 years ago. The only player that I ever had problems with was the old Pioneer DV525, a very good one in its day costing over 250GBP. The cheap Chinese players, then less than 100GBP, would play anything thrown at them. This is maybe connected with the fact that they often used cheap DVD-ROM mechanisms instead of dedicated consumer devices made to the formal DVD consortium spec..

I think Jeff's initial suspicion is more likely. Early players tended to play interlaced discs only. The trend for progressive came when the distributors started releasing 24p movies. My old Pioneer DV565A was the first that was OK with them.

Steve

Steve
Steve Game is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2011, 07:44 AM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Melrose Park, Illinois, USA
Posts: 936
Re: Interlace progressive video?

In addition, there is a possibility that some early DVD players cannot read burned discs at all - they support only factory-replicated ("pressed") discs.
Randall Leong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2011, 08:39 AM   #11
Jubal 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 872
Re: Interlace progressive video?

There's a difference between progressive-scan players -- players which can output a progressive signal -- and DVD players which will play progressive DVDs. You do not need a progressive-scan player to play a progressive DVD.

Any DVD player should, in theory, be able to play any in-region DVD, whether it's progressive or interlaced. My oldest player from 1998 is still kicking and it plays any DVD -- interlaced, progressive, anything.

Commercial movie DVDs started being released as 24p very, very early, before there were any progressive-scan players available. There were no problems. There are instructions in progressive video files on a DVD which tell a DVD player how to output the signal as interlaced.

There may be a few very, very cheap players which have some sort of problem, but that's because it's a very, very cheap player, not because players in general can't handle progressive footage. They can. And it's not because it's an "early" player; it's because it's a *cheap* player.
David Jimerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2011, 03:15 PM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 229
Re: Interlace progressive video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Jimerson View Post
There are instructions in progressive video files on a DVD which tell a DVD player how to output the signal as interlaced.
Actually, it's the other way around. The stream is stored as fields with binary flags such as PROGRESSIVE_FRAME, PICTURE_STRUCTURE, REPEAT_FIRST_FIELD, and TOP_FIELD_FIRST that tell the playback device the proper way to playback the fields.
Aaron Courtney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2011, 04:05 PM   #13
Jubal 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 872
Re: Interlace progressive video?

On a theoretical level, yes. You might call it "48i" with flags, but it's functionally exactly the same as 24p, and would be treated as such by an NLE or video player. You can test this with 24p VOB files.

What it's not is 60i interlaced, from which 24p frames are extracted, which is the important point.
David Jimerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2011, 04:36 PM   #14
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 313
Re: Interlace progressive video?

Weren't older desktop players more likely to be compatible with DVD-R rather than +R media? I always burn DVD-R disks and never had compatibility issues.
David Jasany is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2011, 08:56 PM   #15
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Melrose Park, Illinois, USA
Posts: 936
Re: Interlace progressive video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Jasany View Post
Weren't older desktop players more likely to be compatible with DVD-R rather than +R media? I always burn DVD-R disks and never had compatibility issues.
Actually, many older players have trouble reading disks that has a booktype set to a value other than 0. Unfortunately, DVD-R already has a pre-embedded booktype that's not 0 - and that booktype cannot be changed at all during a burn! As such, those older players are incompatible with DVD-R.

DVD+R, however, can have its booktype set to 0 (DVD-ROM) instead of its default of DVD+R - but only on a burner that supports DVD+R bitsetting. Some burners do not support bitsetting on single-layer DVD+R media while some others automatically set the booktype for DVD+R to 0 whether you like it or not.
Randall Leong is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Windows / PC Post Production Solutions > What Happens in Vegas...

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:47 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network