24p questions at DVinfo.net

Yi Fong Yu · July 14th, 2004, 09:34 AM

if you use both in a 2 camera shoot/setup you won't get matching qualities, correct? i know i could set both to the same 30 and it will match but if i use xl2's 24p it won't match the xl1s in post right?

Peter Moore · July 14th, 2004, 11:15 AM

The look will not be the same that's right. There probably will be noticeable differences. Keep in mind you'll have to convert both to 60i in order to use in the same project also and you won't be able to go back to 24p then (not easily anyway).

Desmond Sukotjo · July 17th, 2004, 11:34 AM

I was wondering if the PAL version would be 24p 25p 50i. Is there such thing? Or this option is for NTSC only?

Thanks

Chris Hurd · July 17th, 2004, 01:48 PM

PAL frame rates are 25p and 50i only. The human eye can't detect any difference between 24fps and 25fps anyway. Converting 25p to 24p for film transfer is a fairly straightforward post-production process. Hope this helps,

Mark Kubat · July 20th, 2004, 09:46 AM

Hi folks - the DVX100 LCD display is known to give a funny "strobing" as it compensates in realtime while shooting in 24p mode and my Canon rep who has access to an XL2 is saying that he feels the XL2 is doing the same thing - you really don't get a sense of the 24p/30p until you actually capture the footage and play out live after editing/rendering.... Shooting 24p with the eyepiece and moving around to pull focus etc. is darned irritating in the DVX100 and I have to admit that as a result, this feature would seem to be limiting given the XL2 only has 2 inch LCD/eyepiece... any thoughts?

It's difficult to use auto-focus in the DVX100A - I only have older version avail. to me - because of the processing delay in 24p? - is this also the case in the XL2?

Should maybe do more homework here but just thought it'd be easier to ask outright - is autofocus supported in XL2 while in 24p mode? Is there still a "delay?" that essentially renders autofocus in 24p as being un-useable?

The DVX100's "focus markers" at least help compensate for this a little bit...

Can anyone recount early experiences shooting in 24p with XL2?

Salazar Cragmore · August 6th, 2004, 09:39 AM

Hello.

I am new to DV filmmaking and am looking to setup a camera and editing package based on the XL2. I am looking to shoot an indie featue in 16:9 / 24p to have the option of printing to film. The XL2 looks like it will do it's part, but I'm a little lost as to what I'll need on the editing side.

Can anyone recommend an affordable realtime NLE system (hardware and software) setup that would be appropriate for such a project?

I looked into the Matrox RT.X100 Xtreme, but it seems as if it's not 24p compatible.

I am looking for a PC based option.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Salazar

Kaku Ito · August 6th, 2004, 10:12 AM

Maybe Avid Xpress DV?

Brian Gauthier · August 6th, 2004, 10:46 AM

your best bet might be Vegas... but check it out...

Richard Alvarez · August 6th, 2004, 02:33 PM

If you want a true realtime hardware/software solution for the PC. Then AvidXpressDV with MOJO is your best bet. Total price of the software and Mojo will run in the neighborhood of 3 grand. (Not counting the computer system).

Avid, Vegas and Premiere all have "realtime" capabilities. Meaning their software uses various methods for giving you "realtime" previews. If you are shooting in 24 with transfer to film in mind, and don't have a lot of effects and rendering to do, then they will all pretty much give you realtime out as you edit.

Rob Lohman · August 7th, 2004, 04:22 AM

Make sure the NLE you choose understands 24 fps DV (2:3 or
2:3:3:2 pulldown), like Vegas does for example.

p.s. one small comment. I don't know what you are planning to
do etc, but it kinda sounds like you are going to pay a lot of
money for a (good) camera and then try to get everything else
as cheaply as possible. Again I don't know how you are
approaching this, but there is a lot more to acquire then just a
camera and an editing station. If you those two things are just
the two things you can barely afford then it might be better to
look at some other options.

John Mercer · August 7th, 2004, 04:47 AM

Avid Xpress Pro, Vegas (PC only) and FCP (Apple Mac only) all have the ability to capture and output 24p advanced pulldown. However Avid Xpress Pro requires Mojo for output and cannot handle 24p standard pulldown at the moment. I am not sure about Premiere. Non of them require the DVX100 (or XL2) for capture or output - the cadence is part of the software and the way it was shot - any deck will do, although obviously you can only shoot 24p on a camera like the DVX100 or XL2 when it arrives.

A word of caution: 24p advanced is specifically designed for output to film. It has a different 'pulldown' sequence than 24p standard, which is more akin in its look to normal telecined film on NTSC.

If your main intention, truly your main intention, is to go to film output then you should shoot in 24p advanced and you will need one of the above NLEs. However if film output is a remote possibility, which seems to be the case for most people - not saying this is so for you - then you would be better off using 24p standard - 24p advanced has a kind of judder that some find unacceptable on NTSC monitors.

Best regards,
John.

Barry Green · August 8th, 2004, 02:58 AM

If you're going to be editing on a 24P timeline, 24P Advanced has several advantages -- easier pure-frame extraction, plus it uses the full-frame DV compression option, rather than the field-by-field method used for interlaced frames. And there are reasons to shoot 24PA other than film transfer. Editing in a 24P timeline allows for easy creation of a pure 24P DVD, which lets you fit 20% more info on a disc (or, alternately, encode at a higher bitrate for better quality). Also when editing in a 24P timeline you would spend less time rotoscoping or masking or compositing, because there are 20% fewer frames to work with.

If you are going to videotape, you can shoot 24P Normal and edit it in a 60i timeline. If you intend to be editing on a 24P timeline, you should unquestionably shoot 24P Advanced mode.

Bill Pryor · August 12th, 2004, 08:13 PM

Are you sure that's right about Avid requiring the Mojo box for output? I didn't know the box had anything to do with 24p.

Jeff Donald · August 12th, 2004, 10:05 PM

I think Mojo is required for RT.

Bill Pryor · August 13th, 2004, 08:46 AM

We've got two Xpress Pro systems with no Mojo. I didn't see a need for it. Most all effects are real time, but you have to render those effects before going to tape. Takes up to about 4 or 5 minutes for a half hour program usually, unless there's a lot of chroma key.

July 14th, 2004, 09:34 AM	#1
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	24p questions if you use both in a 2 camera shoot/setup you won't get matching qualities, correct? i know i could set both to the same 30 and it will match but if i use xl2's 24p it won't match the xl1s in post right? __________________ bow wow wow

July 17th, 2004, 11:34 AM	#3
Desmond Sukotjo Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 88	24p 30p 60i on PAL I was wondering if the PAL version would be 24p 25p 50i. Is there such thing? Or this option is for NTSC only? Thanks

July 17th, 2004, 01:48 PM	#4
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	PAL frame rates are 25p and 50i only. The human eye can't detect any difference between 24fps and 25fps anyway. Converting 25p to 24p for film transfer is a fairly straightforward post-production process. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 20th, 2004, 09:46 AM	#5
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	24p "strobing" in LCD/eyepiece during shooting? Hi folks - the DVX100 LCD display is known to give a funny "strobing" as it compensates in realtime while shooting in 24p mode and my Canon rep who has access to an XL2 is saying that he feels the XL2 is doing the same thing - you really don't get a sense of the 24p/30p until you actually capture the footage and play out live after editing/rendering.... Shooting 24p with the eyepiece and moving around to pull focus etc. is darned irritating in the DVX100 and I have to admit that as a result, this feature would seem to be limiting given the XL2 only has 2 inch LCD/eyepiece... any thoughts? It's difficult to use auto-focus in the DVX100A - I only have older version avail. to me - because of the processing delay in 24p? - is this also the case in the XL2? Should maybe do more homework here but just thought it'd be easier to ask outright - is autofocus supported in XL2 while in 24p mode? Is there still a "delay?" that essentially renders autofocus in 24p as being un-useable? The DVX100's "focus markers" at least help compensate for this a little bit... Can anyone recount early experiences shooting in 24p with XL2?

August 6th, 2004, 09:39 AM	#6
Salazar Cragmore Tourist Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: FL, USA Posts: 4	A recommended realtime NLE for XL2 24p footage? Hello. I am new to DV filmmaking and am looking to setup a camera and editing package based on the XL2. I am looking to shoot an indie featue in 16:9 / 24p to have the option of printing to film. The XL2 looks like it will do it's part, but I'm a little lost as to what I'll need on the editing side. Can anyone recommend an affordable realtime NLE system (hardware and software) setup that would be appropriate for such a project? I looked into the Matrox RT.X100 Xtreme, but it seems as if it's not 24p compatible. I am looking for a PC based option. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Salazar

July 14th, 2004, 11:15 AM	#2
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	The look will not be the same that's right. There probably will be noticeable differences. Keep in mind you'll have to convert both to 60i in order to use in the same project also and you won't be able to go back to 24p then (not easily anyway).

August 6th, 2004, 10:12 AM	#7
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	Maybe Avid Xpress DV?

August 6th, 2004, 10:46 AM	#8
Brian Gauthier Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: honolulu, hi Posts: 54	your best bet might be Vegas... but check it out...

August 6th, 2004, 02:33 PM	#9
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	If you want a true realtime hardware/software solution for the PC. Then AvidXpressDV with MOJO is your best bet. Total price of the software and Mojo will run in the neighborhood of 3 grand. (Not counting the computer system). Avid, Vegas and Premiere all have "realtime" capabilities. Meaning their software uses various methods for giving you "realtime" previews. If you are shooting in 24 with transfer to film in mind, and don't have a lot of effects and rendering to do, then they will all pretty much give you realtime out as you edit.

August 7th, 2004, 04:22 AM	#10
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Make sure the NLE you choose understands 24 fps DV (2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown), like Vegas does for example. p.s. one small comment. I don't know what you are planning to do etc, but it kinda sounds like you are going to pay a lot of money for a (good) camera and then try to get everything else as cheaply as possible. Again I don't know how you are approaching this, but there is a lot more to acquire then just a camera and an editing station. If you those two things are just the two things you can barely afford then it might be better to look at some other options. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 7th, 2004, 04:47 AM	#11
John Mercer Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Spain Posts: 73	Avid Xpress Pro, Vegas (PC only) and FCP (Apple Mac only) all have the ability to capture and output 24p advanced pulldown. However Avid Xpress Pro requires Mojo for output and cannot handle 24p standard pulldown at the moment. I am not sure about Premiere. Non of them require the DVX100 (or XL2) for capture or output - the cadence is part of the software and the way it was shot - any deck will do, although obviously you can only shoot 24p on a camera like the DVX100 or XL2 when it arrives. A word of caution: 24p advanced is specifically designed for output to film. It has a different 'pulldown' sequence than 24p standard, which is more akin in its look to normal telecined film on NTSC. If your main intention, truly your main intention, is to go to film output then you should shoot in 24p advanced and you will need one of the above NLEs. However if film output is a remote possibility, which seems to be the case for most people - not saying this is so for you - then you would be better off using 24p standard - 24p advanced has a kind of judder that some find unacceptable on NTSC monitors. Best regards, John.

August 8th, 2004, 02:58 AM	#12
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	If you're going to be editing on a 24P timeline, 24P Advanced has several advantages -- easier pure-frame extraction, plus it uses the full-frame DV compression option, rather than the field-by-field method used for interlaced frames. And there are reasons to shoot 24PA other than film transfer. Editing in a 24P timeline allows for easy creation of a pure 24P DVD, which lets you fit 20% more info on a disc (or, alternately, encode at a higher bitrate for better quality). Also when editing in a 24P timeline you would spend less time rotoscoping or masking or compositing, because there are 20% fewer frames to work with. If you are going to videotape, you can shoot 24P Normal and edit it in a 60i timeline. If you intend to be editing on a 24P timeline, you should unquestionably shoot 24P Advanced mode.

August 12th, 2004, 08:13 PM	#13
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Are you sure that's right about Avid requiring the Mojo box for output? I didn't know the box had anything to do with 24p.

August 12th, 2004, 10:05 PM	#14
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I think Mojo is required for RT. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 13th, 2004, 08:46 AM	#15
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	We've got two Xpress Pro systems with no Mojo. I didn't see a need for it. Most all effects are real time, but you have to render those effects before going to tape. Takes up to about 4 or 5 minutes for a half hour program usually, unless there's a lot of chroma key.