24p questions

Marty Hudzik · October 20th, 2004, 12:01 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Imran Zaidi : Does the XL2 have a numbered focus scale like the DVX? That's what really floats my boat with manual focusing on the DVX. -->>>

no sir....it does not have a numbered focus scale. Serious Bummer.

David Lach · October 20th, 2004, 03:03 PM

If you want to do manual focusing, buy the 16x lens. Even better, buy the 14x for $900 which will give you the manual iris to boot.

I don't know anybody who's serious about precisely manual focusing critical shots that would do that on one of those endless spinning rings like the ones on the Canon AF lenses or the DVX.

Marty Hudzik · October 20th, 2004, 03:24 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by David Lach : If you want to do manual focusing, buy the 16x lens. Even better, buy the 14x for $900 which will give you the manual iris to boot.

I don't know anybody who's serious about precisely manual focusing critical shots that would do that on one of those endless spinning rings like the ones on the Canon AF lenses or the DVX. -->>>

I agree with you in general but the numbering scheme on the DVX is pretty accurate if you make a mental note of where you are focusing. For example....when I was shooting talent that were moving say 10 feet in front of me I could focus and make a note that at 46 I was in focus for 10 feet away. Later.....if I have things all screwed up and I need to get back to a similar focus I can just whip it to 49 and know I am in the ballpark. fine adjustments from there.

On the XL if you have people 10 feet from you who knows where the heck you are in terms of focusing without turning the focus and watching to see what happens.

Keep in mind that both of these references are for run and gun manual filming and not "staged" scenes. Also.....this helps on the DVX as the numbers give a good reference as to what area you are focused in without having to look at the viewfinder....I mean....you have to look at the viewfinder to see the numbers and all....but to know you have a scene that is 5-6 feet away you already know the range of focus numbers for that distance.

Barry Green · October 20th, 2004, 05:19 PM

The DVX ring is different. It's repeatable. It acts exactly like a true manual focus ring, with the exception being no "hard stops" at infinity or MOD. But you can mark the lens barrel with tape marks for your start and end point, and endlessly repeat those marks, just like on a true manual focus lens.

And if you get the Century ring with hard stops, it becomes a completely functional full manual focus ring. It's in a completely different league from the endless-spinner focus rings on cameras like the PD170 and XL2's 20x lens.

Chris Chung · October 20th, 2004, 10:19 PM

Thanks for the footage.
great stuff.
love to see more.

William LiPera · October 26th, 2004, 09:15 AM

When playing a 24p xl2 clip burned to dvd in progressive scan then played with a progressive scan dvd player on a High definition tv with component in, is this truely playing 24p or is there some interlacing going on. Thanks , Bill

Joshua Starnes · October 26th, 2004, 09:28 AM

It's not exactly true 24p - but it's as close as you're going to get on a TV. The DVD player has to use a complex algorithm (If you do some searches through the DVD section, you'll see a lot of talk about 2:3:3:2 pulldown and the like, that is what they're talking about) to represent true 24p on a TV running off a 60hz power supply (I assume you're talking about NTSC - PAL is slightly different). What you're getting is 24p represented on a 30p monitor. It will be true progressive, there won't be any interlacing going on.

However, major Hollywood films shot on film have to put up with the same algorithm when they are put on DVD as well - so you don't have to worry about trying to find a better way to do it, because there isn't one. More to the point, the movement differences between 24p represented on a TV and projected from a film projector are invisible to the naked eye. Usually, if you originate in 24p, it's going to look like 24p on your TV.

I have heard the possibility (and maybe someone who knows more can illuminate?) that there will be TVs capable of showing true 1080 24p picture - but that's not a commercial reality right now.

David Lach · October 26th, 2004, 06:38 PM

I might be wrong, but I think progressive capable digital TVs (Plasma, LCDs) can display true 24p and don't need to be fed with 30p/60i, just like your standard CRT/LCD computer monitor can show true 24p motion without any kind of conversion.

Nick Hiltgen · October 26th, 2004, 07:52 PM

I don't think that progressive 108024P is possible yet on the tv's you're talking about. Only because the F900 is one of the few camera's that shoots in that particular format and even when it's being monitored there's too much information for a true progressive image it's actually a segmented frame. So I don't think so yet but it will happen soon.

AJ Silverman · October 31st, 2004, 09:48 PM

Thanks for any advice in advance. I have been editing since the heady days of Assymetrix DVP and Premiere 4.2 completing various projects over the years, mostly becoming an Adobe stalwart along the way. Well, I have made the big leap...and got myself a shiny new Canon XL2 and a Quad-Xeon monster editing station with 15kRPM SCSI Array, 2 GB of Rambus, and all kinds of goodies like a Hoontech DSP24 MkII and a Canopus MVR1000 R/T MPEG encoder(that I dont plan to use). I have some 24p footage I shot, and want to begin capturing it to edit in Premiere Pro 1.5. As of now...I have no hardware assisted video rendering..I soon plan on an RT.X100 Matrox system.

So basically my questions are these:

1. Must I use the Canon XL2 or its program to capture 24p while shooting and capturing or can I use a DSR-11(or similiar). I want to keep the head usage to recording only...not capture and playback.

2. Can Adobe capture 24p footage, and do you choose the Panasonic 24p preset?

3. For eventual television broadcast, do I use the 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pull down?

Thanks again,

AJ

Barry Green · October 31st, 2004, 11:38 PM

1) any deck can play back 24P footage

2) Should be able to, and yes, but I'm not a Premiere Pro user so that's a guess

3) The question of which pulldown scheme to use isn't so much a decision of what it's going to be viewed on, but rather what it's going to be edited at. If editing in a 24P timeline, use 2:3:3:2. If editing in a 60i timeline, use 2:3.

For broadcast you will have to output it as 60i, which means that if you edit in a 24P timeline, you'll want to output as 2:3.

William LiPera · November 2nd, 2004, 01:26 PM

So what is the best way to edit and encode 24p if the final destination is dvd for viewing on a progressive scan dvd player on a HDTV with component input?

Barry Green · November 2nd, 2004, 02:58 PM

DVD players are all standard-def, so don't even worry about high-def.

Use a program like Sony's Vegas that understands progressive-scan 24P footage. Vegas plus DVD Architect will give you a full pure 24P DVD, start to finish, just like Hollywood DVD's.

William LiPera · November 2nd, 2004, 06:07 PM

What does a pure 24p dvd actually mean?

Barry Green · November 2nd, 2004, 06:17 PM

Well, what I mean by that is, the material is encoded on the disc as progressive-scan frames, rather than interlaced; and at the rate of 24 frames per second, rather than 60 fields per second.

Hollywood movies are encoded as 24P DVD's.

DVD players understand the 24P sequence and will automatically insert 3:2 pulldown when playing a 24P DVD onto an interlaced television. But if you're playing a 24P DVD on a device that supports 24P playback (such as a computer DVD player) it'll play back the original pure 24P frames, with no pulldown.

Encoding at 24P allows you to fit 20% more info on the disc, or to use a higher bitrate (lower compression ratio) to get higher-quality encoding.

October 26th, 2004, 09:15 AM	#96
William LiPera Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 83	24p & progressive scan dvd When playing a 24p xl2 clip burned to dvd in progressive scan then played with a progressive scan dvd player on a High definition tv with component in, is this truely playing 24p or is there some interlacing going on. Thanks , Bill

October 31st, 2004, 09:48 PM	#100
AJ Silverman Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 28	More 24p Questions Thanks for any advice in advance. I have been editing since the heady days of Assymetrix DVP and Premiere 4.2 completing various projects over the years, mostly becoming an Adobe stalwart along the way. Well, I have made the big leap...and got myself a shiny new Canon XL2 and a Quad-Xeon monster editing station with 15kRPM SCSI Array, 2 GB of Rambus, and all kinds of goodies like a Hoontech DSP24 MkII and a Canopus MVR1000 R/T MPEG encoder(that I dont plan to use). I have some 24p footage I shot, and want to begin capturing it to edit in Premiere Pro 1.5. As of now...I have no hardware assisted video rendering..I soon plan on an RT.X100 Matrox system. So basically my questions are these: 1. Must I use the Canon XL2 or its program to capture 24p while shooting and capturing or can I use a DSR-11(or similiar). I want to keep the head usage to recording only...not capture and playback. 2. Can Adobe capture 24p footage, and do you choose the Panasonic 24p preset? 3. For eventual television broadcast, do I use the 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pull down? Thanks again, AJ

November 2nd, 2004, 01:26 PM	#102
William LiPera Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 83	24p and dvds So what is the best way to edit and encode 24p if the final destination is dvd for viewing on a progressive scan dvd player on a HDTV with component input?

November 2nd, 2004, 06:07 PM	#104
William LiPera Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 83	pure 24p dvd What does a pure 24p dvd actually mean?

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October 20th, 2004, 12:01 PM	#91
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	<<<-- Originally posted by Imran Zaidi : Does the XL2 have a numbered focus scale like the DVX? That's what really floats my boat with manual focusing on the DVX. -->>> no sir....it does not have a numbered focus scale. Serious Bummer.

October 20th, 2004, 03:03 PM	#92
David Lach Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Posts: 570	If you want to do manual focusing, buy the 16x lens. Even better, buy the 14x for $900 which will give you the manual iris to boot. I don't know anybody who's serious about precisely manual focusing critical shots that would do that on one of those endless spinning rings like the ones on the Canon AF lenses or the DVX.

October 20th, 2004, 03:24 PM	#93
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	<<<-- Originally posted by David Lach : If you want to do manual focusing, buy the 16x lens. Even better, buy the 14x for $900 which will give you the manual iris to boot. I don't know anybody who's serious about precisely manual focusing critical shots that would do that on one of those endless spinning rings like the ones on the Canon AF lenses or the DVX. -->>> I agree with you in general but the numbering scheme on the DVX is pretty accurate if you make a mental note of where you are focusing. For example....when I was shooting talent that were moving say 10 feet in front of me I could focus and make a note that at 46 I was in focus for 10 feet away. Later.....if I have things all screwed up and I need to get back to a similar focus I can just whip it to 49 and know I am in the ballpark. fine adjustments from there. On the XL if you have people 10 feet from you who knows where the heck you are in terms of focusing without turning the focus and watching to see what happens. Keep in mind that both of these references are for run and gun manual filming and not "staged" scenes. Also.....this helps on the DVX as the numbers give a good reference as to what area you are focused in without having to look at the viewfinder....I mean....you have to look at the viewfinder to see the numbers and all....but to know you have a scene that is 5-6 feet away you already know the range of focus numbers for that distance.

October 20th, 2004, 05:19 PM	#94
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	The DVX ring is different. It's repeatable. It acts exactly like a true manual focus ring, with the exception being no "hard stops" at infinity or MOD. But you can mark the lens barrel with tape marks for your start and end point, and endlessly repeat those marks, just like on a true manual focus lens. And if you get the Century ring with hard stops, it becomes a completely functional full manual focus ring. It's in a completely different league from the endless-spinner focus rings on cameras like the PD170 and XL2's 20x lens.

October 20th, 2004, 10:19 PM	#95
Chris Chung New Boot Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 18	Thanks for the footage. great stuff. love to see more.

October 26th, 2004, 09:28 AM	#97
Joshua Starnes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 356	It's not exactly true 24p - but it's as close as you're going to get on a TV. The DVD player has to use a complex algorithm (If you do some searches through the DVD section, you'll see a lot of talk about 2:3:3:2 pulldown and the like, that is what they're talking about) to represent true 24p on a TV running off a 60hz power supply (I assume you're talking about NTSC - PAL is slightly different). What you're getting is 24p represented on a 30p monitor. It will be true progressive, there won't be any interlacing going on. However, major Hollywood films shot on film have to put up with the same algorithm when they are put on DVD as well - so you don't have to worry about trying to find a better way to do it, because there isn't one. More to the point, the movement differences between 24p represented on a TV and projected from a film projector are invisible to the naked eye. Usually, if you originate in 24p, it's going to look like 24p on your TV. I have heard the possibility (and maybe someone who knows more can illuminate?) that there will be TVs capable of showing true 1080 24p picture - but that's not a commercial reality right now.

October 26th, 2004, 06:38 PM	#98
David Lach Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Posts: 570	I might be wrong, but I think progressive capable digital TVs (Plasma, LCDs) can display true 24p and don't need to be fed with 30p/60i, just like your standard CRT/LCD computer monitor can show true 24p motion without any kind of conversion.

October 26th, 2004, 07:52 PM	#99
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	I don't think that progressive 108024P is possible yet on the tv's you're talking about. Only because the F900 is one of the few camera's that shoots in that particular format and even when it's being monitored there's too much information for a true progressive image it's actually a segmented frame. So I don't think so yet but it will happen soon.

October 31st, 2004, 11:38 PM	#101
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	1) any deck can play back 24P footage 2) Should be able to, and yes, but I'm not a Premiere Pro user so that's a guess 3) The question of which pulldown scheme to use isn't so much a decision of what it's going to be viewed on, but rather what it's going to be edited at. If editing in a 24P timeline, use 2:3:3:2. If editing in a 60i timeline, use 2:3. For broadcast you will have to output it as 60i, which means that if you edit in a 24P timeline, you'll want to output as 2:3.

November 2nd, 2004, 02:58 PM	#103
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	DVD players are all standard-def, so don't even worry about high-def. Use a program like Sony's Vegas that understands progressive-scan 24P footage. Vegas plus DVD Architect will give you a full pure 24P DVD, start to finish, just like Hollywood DVD's.

November 2nd, 2004, 06:17 PM	#105
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Well, what I mean by that is, the material is encoded on the disc as progressive-scan frames, rather than interlaced; and at the rate of 24 frames per second, rather than 60 fields per second. Hollywood movies are encoded as 24P DVD's. DVD players understand the 24P sequence and will automatically insert 3:2 pulldown when playing a 24P DVD onto an interlaced television. But if you're playing a 24P DVD on a device that supports 24P playback (such as a computer DVD player) it'll play back the original pure 24P frames, with no pulldown. Encoding at 24P allows you to fit 20% more info on the disc, or to use a higher bitrate (lower compression ratio) to get higher-quality encoding.