24p questions

Raymond Schlogel · September 28th, 2004, 03:13 PM

6oi , my bad.

- Ray

David Lach · September 28th, 2004, 03:50 PM

If you don't need to slow it down too much, shooting 30P and slowing it down to 24p (20% slower) to match the rest of your 24p footage will give you the best results. It will still be progressive but with a bit less motion blur than 24p.

I've never been a fan of 60i acquisition and I've always found it to be ugly looking, even when slowed down, so I personally would not do it. Your best bet is shooting in 30p with the shutter set at 1/60th to get sharp progressive images and if you need more than a 20% slower motion, use the Twixtor plugin (a bit tricky to use, but can give very nice results). You can also use simple frame blending effect in Premiere if you don't have the Twixtor plugin.

Aaron Shaw · September 28th, 2004, 05:33 PM

I wish we could shoot 60p....

Anyone know a way to do this in Premiere Pro 1 that looks decent? with 30p footage.

Nick Hiltgen · September 28th, 2004, 06:32 PM

There's a program (twixtor I believe) that allows you to "create" frames. I think what you would do is shoot in both 24p and 60i and then correct with the program.

Here's where you can find some info on it.

http://www.revisionfx.com/rstwixtor.htm

Marty Hudzik · September 28th, 2004, 09:34 PM

Okay. Here is some footage for you.

One video is the XL2 in 16x9, Cinegamma ON, Cinecolor On, Color gain +2. All other settings are default. I just got my replacement XL2 at 6:15 this evening and after assembling it I went out and shot this footage. It was turning to dark and it was cloudy so no magic hour footage. Just some "almost dark" to dark footage. No gain was used on any of these and the shutter is 1/48. Because of time constraints I had to do run and gun so no tripod and no really great composition. I tried to focus on motion as many have commented on the 24p not looking so much like film. So forgive the sloppiness.

The second video is one that I shot at work to do a comparison between the DVX and XL2 in the exact same environment. It will alternate between 16x9 and 4x3 pillarboxed in 16x9 for the DVX footage. I didn't have a DVX100A or anamorphic adapter to compare. Since the significant benefit of the XL2 is 16x9 clarity I decided to do it this way. It also gives a chance to see the field of view of the XL2 in comparison. Also both were white balanced on the same whiteboard except for the outside footage where the Xl2 color balance is off. Also....the time of day is different so that affects the colors.Now....this one is really sloppy as it was never intended to be viewed by anyone but me. I used it to compare colors and sharpness and ultimately decided on the XL2.

Now before I get flamed I was actually still in love with my DVX when I shot this and was reassurring myself that the DVX100 was the girl for me. So I was extra careful to make sure everything was set right for the DVX to have a fair chance! But ultimately the Xl2 stole my heart.

In the 2nd clip I use the default f6 preset of the DVX and same settings on the DVX listed above.

Please don't criticize the cinematoraphy and realize I mainly did this so those of you who have been craving 24p cine footage can see it. In all fairness the cinegamma does not have a major effect on the image the way the DVX does. IT is subtle but works. BUt if you want the "saturated colors" of the DVX you may have to tweak in post.

These 2 files are .wmv files renamed to .wmvx so that you are forced to download them and not stream them. Just rename the extension and enjoy. Hope you see the potential of the Xl2 but don't expect the cine settings to blow your doors off. Also if anyone else wants to host these feel free as I know that this is going to p**s off my webhost because of the bandwidth.

Thanks

file1=30mb
http://www.iciclestudios.com/images/..._cine_24p.wmvx

and

file2=59mb
http://www.iciclestudios.com/images/...e-compare.wmvx

Thomas Smet · September 28th, 2004, 09:54 PM

Pinnacle Liquid Edition has one of the best slow motion tools I have seen built into an editing program. It does create new frames in between such as most expensive plugins do. I however never tried it on 30p or 24p.

David Lach · September 28th, 2004, 10:05 PM

Thank you so much Marty. Can't tell you how much I wanted to see some 24p footage from the XL2. One question. Was this shot using the standard 3:2 pulldown or 2:3:3:2 mode?

Tre Stylez · September 28th, 2004, 10:15 PM

Thanks for the footage!!

I mirrored the files here:

http://xl2.stylezracing.com/xl2_cine_24p.wmvx
http://xl2.stylezracing.com/xl2-dvx-cine-compare.wmvx

Marty Hudzik · September 28th, 2004, 10:19 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by David Lach : Thank you so much Marty. Can't tell you how much I wanted to see some 24p footage from the XL2. One question. Was this shot using the standard 3:2 pulldown or 2:3:3:2 mode? -->>>

2:3:3:2 mode or 24PA for short! Premiere Pro automatically removes the extra frame for a true 24 fps movie.

Marty Hudzik · September 28th, 2004, 10:26 PM

I also find it interesting how in the DVX-XL2 clip there are some scenes that they look very close and then others that the colors are so different! Even though I had the cameras white balanced the same. Especially the shots of the crates in the warehouse.

I'm not saying one is better than the other just that they have totally different responses color wise in the same situation. The DVX definitely reacts more film-like to certain lighting conditions....but sometimes at the cost of losing information in these areas. Truthfully my partner and I had gotten into the habit of turning the CInnegamma off and shooting with it flat. Believe me when I say it is much easier to get the DVX look in post than it is to fix a shot that got messed up because og a highlight blowout caused by the Cinnegamma circuit.

Peace!

By the way....to all here who were following my saga, my XL2 was sent back to Canon and replaced. They didn't say it was defective but gave some cryptic message about an issue with the lens. So I now have a new XL2 and will be posting often with my experiences.

Kevin Chao · September 28th, 2004, 11:14 PM

tweaking with the rgb gain can also achieve the saturation many dvx users seek...

btw.. i can't seem to download the files...

Marty Hudzik · September 28th, 2004, 11:30 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Chao : tweaking with the rgb gain can also achieve the saturation many dvx users seek...

btw.. i can't seem to download the files... -->>>

its on a unix server so it is case sensitive. There is another set of links for a mirror copy of these. I anticipate catching flack from my website provider so these may have to come down soon. Hopefully Tre can continue to host these if that happens.

Jim Exton · September 29th, 2004, 08:20 AM

Marty - Thank you very much for posting this. That footage was really good, I loved the night stuff in the first one.

Hopefully we will see more and more footage posted here in the weeks to come.

Marty Hudzik · September 29th, 2004, 08:43 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Exton : Marty - Thank you very much for posting this. That footage was really good, I loved the night stuff in the first one.

Hopefully we will see more and more footage posted here in the weeks to come. -->>>

thanks. I should add that the RED color that you see at night is caused by lights that actually cast that color. When you are there in the real world your brain cancels that out....so when I first saw it I was like.....WTF. But it captured it as is. I didn't have anywhere to white balance so I had to use indoor.

David Walding · September 29th, 2004, 09:26 AM

Thanks alot Marty,
I am kind of suprised that you favored the XL2 since I read your post about the colors being more true and saturated on the DVX. I think all the shot's look great and I am assuming that the clips with a more pronunced color are the DVX since I was not sure somtimes which was which other that the colors look a little brighter. Did you show these in a specfic order .i.e DVX then XL2 or vice versa. It would have been nice if you could of labled each shot but I think I could tell which was which.

Also in the dark shots does it seem the DVX is more sensitive than the XL2? Anyways thanks for the great footage!

September 28th, 2004, 03:13 PM	#46
Raymond Schlogel Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin Texas Posts: 162 Images: 3	6oi , my bad. - Ray __________________ www.undergroundplanet.com

September 28th, 2004, 09:34 PM	#50
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	Here is some 24p cinegamma footage Okay. Here is some footage for you. One video is the XL2 in 16x9, Cinegamma ON, Cinecolor On, Color gain +2. All other settings are default. I just got my replacement XL2 at 6:15 this evening and after assembling it I went out and shot this footage. It was turning to dark and it was cloudy so no magic hour footage. Just some "almost dark" to dark footage. No gain was used on any of these and the shutter is 1/48. Because of time constraints I had to do run and gun so no tripod and no really great composition. I tried to focus on motion as many have commented on the 24p not looking so much like film. So forgive the sloppiness. The second video is one that I shot at work to do a comparison between the DVX and XL2 in the exact same environment. It will alternate between 16x9 and 4x3 pillarboxed in 16x9 for the DVX footage. I didn't have a DVX100A or anamorphic adapter to compare. Since the significant benefit of the XL2 is 16x9 clarity I decided to do it this way. It also gives a chance to see the field of view of the XL2 in comparison. Also both were white balanced on the same whiteboard except for the outside footage where the Xl2 color balance is off. Also....the time of day is different so that affects the colors.Now....this one is really sloppy as it was never intended to be viewed by anyone but me. I used it to compare colors and sharpness and ultimately decided on the XL2. Now before I get flamed I was actually still in love with my DVX when I shot this and was reassurring myself that the DVX100 was the girl for me. So I was extra careful to make sure everything was set right for the DVX to have a fair chance! But ultimately the Xl2 stole my heart. In the 2nd clip I use the default f6 preset of the DVX and same settings on the DVX listed above. Please don't criticize the cinematoraphy and realize I mainly did this so those of you who have been craving 24p cine footage can see it. In all fairness the cinegamma does not have a major effect on the image the way the DVX does. IT is subtle but works. BUt if you want the "saturated colors" of the DVX you may have to tweak in post. These 2 files are .wmv files renamed to .wmvx so that you are forced to download them and not stream them. Just rename the extension and enjoy. Hope you see the potential of the Xl2 but don't expect the cine settings to blow your doors off. Also if anyone else wants to host these feel free as I know that this is going to p**s off my webhost because of the bandwidth. Thanks file1=30mb http://www.iciclestudios.com/images/..._cine_24p.wmvx and file2=59mb http://www.iciclestudios.com/images/...e-compare.wmvx

September 28th, 2004, 03:50 PM	#47
David Lach Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Posts: 570	If you don't need to slow it down too much, shooting 30P and slowing it down to 24p (20% slower) to match the rest of your 24p footage will give you the best results. It will still be progressive but with a bit less motion blur than 24p. I've never been a fan of 60i acquisition and I've always found it to be ugly looking, even when slowed down, so I personally would not do it. Your best bet is shooting in 30p with the shutter set at 1/60th to get sharp progressive images and if you need more than a 20% slower motion, use the Twixtor plugin (a bit tricky to use, but can give very nice results). You can also use simple frame blending effect in Premiere if you don't have the Twixtor plugin.

September 28th, 2004, 05:33 PM	#48
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	I wish we could shoot 60p.... Anyone know a way to do this in Premiere Pro 1 that looks decent? with 30p footage.

September 28th, 2004, 06:32 PM	#49
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	There's a program (twixtor I believe) that allows you to "create" frames. I think what you would do is shoot in both 24p and 60i and then correct with the program. Here's where you can find some info on it. http://www.revisionfx.com/rstwixtor.htm

September 28th, 2004, 09:54 PM	#51
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Pinnacle Liquid Edition has one of the best slow motion tools I have seen built into an editing program. It does create new frames in between such as most expensive plugins do. I however never tried it on 30p or 24p.

September 28th, 2004, 10:05 PM	#52
David Lach Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Posts: 570	Thank you so much Marty. Can't tell you how much I wanted to see some 24p footage from the XL2. One question. Was this shot using the standard 3:2 pulldown or 2:3:3:2 mode?

September 28th, 2004, 10:15 PM	#53
Tre Stylez New Boot Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NSW, AUSTRALIA Posts: 18	Thanks for the footage!! I mirrored the files here: http://xl2.stylezracing.com/xl2_cine_24p.wmvx http://xl2.stylezracing.com/xl2-dvx-cine-compare.wmvx

September 28th, 2004, 10:19 PM	#54
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	<<<-- Originally posted by David Lach : Thank you so much Marty. Can't tell you how much I wanted to see some 24p footage from the XL2. One question. Was this shot using the standard 3:2 pulldown or 2:3:3:2 mode? -->>> 2:3:3:2 mode or 24PA for short! Premiere Pro automatically removes the extra frame for a true 24 fps movie.

September 28th, 2004, 10:26 PM	#55
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	I also find it interesting how in the DVX-XL2 clip there are some scenes that they look very close and then others that the colors are so different! Even though I had the cameras white balanced the same. Especially the shots of the crates in the warehouse. I'm not saying one is better than the other just that they have totally different responses color wise in the same situation. The DVX definitely reacts more film-like to certain lighting conditions....but sometimes at the cost of losing information in these areas. Truthfully my partner and I had gotten into the habit of turning the CInnegamma off and shooting with it flat. Believe me when I say it is much easier to get the DVX look in post than it is to fix a shot that got messed up because og a highlight blowout caused by the Cinnegamma circuit. Peace! By the way....to all here who were following my saga, my XL2 was sent back to Canon and replaced. They didn't say it was defective but gave some cryptic message about an issue with the lens. So I now have a new XL2 and will be posting often with my experiences.

September 28th, 2004, 11:14 PM	#56
Kevin Chao Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: United States Posts: 37	tweaking with the rgb gain can also achieve the saturation many dvx users seek... btw.. i can't seem to download the files...

September 28th, 2004, 11:30 PM	#57
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Chao : tweaking with the rgb gain can also achieve the saturation many dvx users seek... btw.. i can't seem to download the files... -->>> its on a unix server so it is case sensitive. There is another set of links for a mirror copy of these. I anticipate catching flack from my website provider so these may have to come down soon. Hopefully Tre can continue to host these if that happens.

September 29th, 2004, 08:20 AM	#58
Jim Exton Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Memphis Posts: 103	Marty - Thank you very much for posting this. That footage was really good, I loved the night stuff in the first one. Hopefully we will see more and more footage posted here in the weeks to come.

September 29th, 2004, 08:43 AM	#59
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Exton : Marty - Thank you very much for posting this. That footage was really good, I loved the night stuff in the first one. Hopefully we will see more and more footage posted here in the weeks to come. -->>> thanks. I should add that the RED color that you see at night is caused by lights that actually cast that color. When you are there in the real world your brain cancels that out....so when I first saw it I was like.....WTF. But it captured it as is. I didn't have anywhere to white balance so I had to use indoor.

September 29th, 2004, 09:26 AM	#60
David Walding Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Claremore Ok Posts: 44	Thanks alot Marty, I am kind of suprised that you favored the XL2 since I read your post about the colors being more true and saturated on the DVX. I think all the shot's look great and I am assuming that the clips with a more pronunced color are the DVX since I was not sure somtimes which was which other that the colors look a little brighter. Did you show these in a specfic order .i.e DVX then XL2 or vice versa. It would have been nice if you could of labled each shot but I think I could tell which was which. Also in the dark shots does it seem the DVX is more sensitive than the XL2? Anyways thanks for the great footage!