Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Why doesn’t he ever start out with the real topic? It takes at least a day to uncover what he’s doing . He should have started off with... I’m going to a shooting range and would like to record gun shots with a zoom F8 and xyz mic for my movie. Any recommendations...
There’s no harm in trying but I suspect that specialists in this line of work know how to do it better than you so buying stock is going to be the more logical decision. Wouldn’t be easier to film the scene and then find the proper sound effect? You’re going to do it anyways so I would record a few tests with the gain set differently giving yourself plenty of headroom. Play it back to ensure it’s not over modulated. There are many other more important variables such as location, type of gun, mic type and mic placement that far more important than the position of the fader dial. In this situation the fader is going to be useless since the gun shot sound will be too fast to adjust while recording. This why it’s pointless to ask out of context questions. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
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I would say you can *not* modulate silence with audio, because silence is nothing. If audio is modulated by hum, that's IM (inter-modulation) distortion. In a distortion-free linear system, you could remove the hum later (with a notch or low-cut filter) and the other audio would be completely clear, with no sign the hum was ever there. In the AM world it's just plain "over-modulating." Modulation changes the level of the carrier-frequency signal. At 100% positive modulation, the carrier is twice the amplitude of the un-modulated state. Positive modulation can exceed 100%, although the FCC sets limits on the amplitude of positive peaks. At 100% negative modulation, the carrier level goes to zero ... so very specific clipping does occur. You cannot exceed 100% negative modulation, because you cannot have less than zero carrier. Every RF operator I've known, and the FCC rules, all use the term "over-modulation." In fact I think the term "peaking" is a bit incorrectly used to mean "clipping." All normal audio (e.g. dialog) has peaks. When recording on a digital system we try to keep the frequently-occurring peaks at ~ -12dBFS, giving us enough headroom so that louder peaks will not clip. Peaks are a problem only when they are at such a high level that they cause distortion. I prefer to say the audio is "distorting" or is "clipping" (where clipping is one particular type of distorting, and it's most common and most deadly in the digital world). Curmudgeon that I am, I feel that just because some inaccurate terminology is slipping into common usage is no reason to perpetuate it. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
If Ryan wants the sound of gunshots from a close distance (e.g. what the shooter would hear, rather than what an observer would hear from 20 or 200 feet away) I think the overriding factor will be choice of an appropriate mic. What's the loudest instantaneous SPL produced by the gun in question, in the space in question? What mic can handle that SPL and produce an undistorted waveform of that sound?
After that question has been answered, and the appropriate mic procured, then and only then can anyone think intelligently about preamp trim, the possible necessity of using a passive pad ahead of the preamp, fader position, and gain staging. All legitimate questions, but I haven't a clue. I've never pondered actually recording gunshots myself ... just not something I've ever needed (or desired) to do. Does Ryan have the tenacity and ability to research the subject fully and make the right choices? Do most people? I suspect this is why a lot of folks use a good SFX library when they need a gunshot.. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Normally peaking at a particular dB is what I would use when referring to levels. The peak level with a gun shot I suspect would depend on how the meter responds to such transients and if the meter will display the peak in a manner that you can read.
I know that -3dB on the drum transients of our loyalist bands usually works OK with the meters on broadcast cameras. with the rest of the instruments falling into place pretty well at the usual levels. Testing is the way to go with a gun. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
You know, the F8 has a very nice free app for iPhones and iPads. Worth checking out if you haven't tried it yet, I use it all the time. In fact, the app is the reason why I got the F8.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/f8-control/id1014945716 If you just tap a gain knob on the screen in the app, a popup appears with a numeric value. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Oh okay, well even though I could use a library of gunshots, I still thought I should go out and record my own just for more options. As for mic choice I was thinking of using a shot gun mic. I thought about standing about a couple of feet away with the mic, pointed at the chamber area of the rifles.
A lot of online gunshots, they sound like they were recorded from too far away. I could turn them up of course, but then I am closer to the noise floor. But I can also keep looking for better ones. Quote:
I looked up the term modulation, and got some different definitions, but is this the one you mean? |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
In this context over modulation means when exceeding 0db the sound becomes distorted and clipped. This is why you always leave head room. Since gun shots are out of the norm and have a sudden burst of extreme loud sound, you will have to record a test to see how much head room you'll need.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
In this case and in the way people commonly use the term over modulation regarding audio, it's when you get clipping. This usually at 0dB on the scale of a peak audio meter, when you get distortion.
I don't think you'll have an issue with the noise floor if you're closer than 12 ft to a rifle, possibly even further than that, I gather that a small 22-caliber rifle can produce around 140 dB, while big-bore rifles and pistols can produce sound over 175 dB. I would be careful about getting too close at sound levels like that because you'll get distortion. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Oh okay thanks. Yes, I know what clipping is, that helps, explain it, thanks.
So when you say do not get too close because it will cause distortion, by distortion, do you mean clipping distortion, or a different kind of distortion? |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
The distortion that Brian is referring to results when getting too close to a loud sound source. The microphone itself has a limitation how much sound pressure it can handle before distorting. It would be similar to putting a condenser mic up to your mouth and shouting into it. Even if the mixer doesn't exceed 0db it will still sound distorted.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Oh yes, I see what you mean. I can do tests then. When it comes to the F8 field recorder, or any other field recorder, are there any features that can tell you if you are too close or not? For example in cameras, they have features like focus peaking, that highlight what is in focus and what is not in focus, to help with focusing.
But is there anything like that for audio that can tell you if you are too close or too far away from a sound source? |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
I don't know why you don't think things out when you plan to do these things. Google is your friend and you'll get the answers far faster than in a forum. Here's how the experts do it:
https://www.asoundeffect.com/how-to-...y-loud-things/ |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Oh okay I thought I was planning it out as best I could but never recorded something this loud before, so it's new territory for me. But I thought I was still planning it out.
Or at least my plan was to set the fader to the middle then turn the gain till the gun shots feel right, and test out different distances. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
I wonder whether anyone in this forum has recorded gunshots. If not, as Brian points out (excellent article by the way, Brian!), Google might be a much better place to start looking. There is a ton of stuff there about gunshot SPL, recording gunshots, gunshot sound effects, etc. That is a much more specific place to look.
If nobody here offers specific advice based on personal experience, then Ryan, if you really want to record your own (rather than use pre-recorded SFX) then I second Brian's suggestion: head on over to Google. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Oh okay thanks I will do that, thanks. As for SPL, is that why a lot of gunshots sound effecst, sound like they are recorded from far away, because the mic needs to be far away to prevent distortion?
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
I use dynamic mics when recording L O U D sources. Inherently, dynamic mics can handle higher SPLs than condensers. An SM57/58, Sennheiser 421 are popular choices The Shure SM11 dynamic lavaliere is good in limited space areas like engine compartments.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
You don't record sound effects by changing distance for SPL reasons, you do it to match the picture. If you are standing next to the shooter, you need to record a close perspective, so you use pads - if you record from a distance your picture needs to show the gun at the same distance.
Did we not do gunshot recording a couple of years back? |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Oh if we did, I didn't get to do those recordings back then. But yes, the plan was to get close gunshots, because all of the stock sounds of gunshots I can find online, do not sound close enough, so I want to get close.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
I found free gun shot fx that were recorded close and at various distances in online libraries. I'm not sure what you expect these guns to sound like in a recording, the reality can be very different to what you imagine them to sound.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Oh well a lot of them I found sound very 'thin'. I don't know if thin is the right word but it's hard to describe, like there needs to be more bass or something. I can keep looking, but in the past, if I try to put a sound in recorded by different mics, it would sound different so I thought if I were going to use the same mics that I would record the rest of the movie with, then it would sound more similar.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
All that extra bass etc is probably added in post with EQ, reverb, compression, etc., to give it "oomph" and fit it into the environment (i.e. gunshot on a city street will echo differently than gunshot in a small room).
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
A lot of what you hear in a movie gun shot is added in post. On my films more time was spent fiddling with gun shot sounds during the track laying and mixing than any other sound effect.
It will also depend on the quality of your sound system, they sounded a lot more impressive in the mixing suite (on a short we used one used for mixing feature films) and the in the cinema than in the editing room. If you check that link that i put up about recording loud sounds, you'll find various guns firing in the sound effects tab. You have to pay for them, but the main difference between these and the free ones is that you've got vastly more choice on the shot sounds from each gun. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
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Note also that most of the sound of a gun discharge is emitted at the end of the barrel as the highly compressed gas inside expands into the atmosphere right after the bullet flies out. With higher powered weapons, there is also a brief, higher frequency "crack" sound which is essentially the sonic boom generated by the projectile. You'll get different sounds with microphones at different angles to the rifle. My starting point would probably be between the shooter and the target, but 45° off to one side, and pointed at the barrel of the gun. (That's where the mic goes, but NOT YOU! Long cables are your friend.) Experiment. When recording gunshots, use a dynamic microphone known to be able to handle high sound pressure levels, and stay at least 10 to 20 feet back from the gun. The directional pattern of the mic doesn't even matter that much since the high intensity of the gunshot will completely overwhelm any noise in the environment. (It might affect the perspective or sense of "air" or reverberation around the effect, though. Experiment.) From my personal mic locker, I'd probably start with my Electro-Voice RE20. That's a big dynamic microphone that is often used INSIDE of bass drums in recording studios and can handle really impressive SPLs without distortion. Even my RE50 omni might work pretty well. A good shock mount will be helpful to keep the mic body from rattling. I would keep all my condenser mics back in their Pelicans locked in the car while doing this. Experiment. I used to shoot a hunting and fishing series and have recorded hundreds of gunshots in the past (although ironically, I have never fired a weapon myself). Only ever blew up one microphone, although I think rough handling and water damage may have had more to do with it than gunshot SPLs. - Greg |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
I love the idea about experimenting. Most sound recordists in the UK will never have heard the real sound of a gun - any gun, so we're all so accustomed to the sounds we hear on TV and movies. My first perception of gunshots came from cowboy movies and TV shows set in the US Wild West, plus the TV series Thunderbirds, which always seemed to make guns sound like a ricochet sound. The first time I heard a real gun, it was very disappointing. It went bang, and the recording (made with an SM57) sounded so unlike a real gun to my idiot ears, I ditched it and went for a processed sound effect track.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Oh okay thanks. I thought that a condenser mic would work with a gun as long as the gain was turned down very low. I didn't think I should be 10-20 feet away, because I wanted to try to match the close up perspective of the shots I will doing later. But thank you very much for the input.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
I meant to add that recorded gunshots, or real live gunshots for that matter, don't sound much at all like what we hear on TV and in the movies (except for big artillery, cannons and such). The real sound is more of a brief "pop" without a lot of low frequency content (although it's definitely loud).
So it's possible that you could do a perfect job of recording an accurate reproduction of a real weapon in the exact same acoustic environment as required in your movie, and the audience still wouldn't buy it because it's so different from what they've heard all their lives in previous films. I certainly encourage you to try it if only for the contacts you'll make and what you might learn from doing it, but in the end, using an existing (but less technically accurate) SFX library recording may actually serve your story and audience better. Just be prepared. - Greg |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
For one gun shot in a film I recall mixing the SFX from the library of a field gun, a pistol and a rifle. I can't remember if we used used that or just the pistol and rifle in the end. Dramatically, this pistol shot needed to make the audience jump and the real thing wouldn't do that, but our final mix did. No one has ever questioned it.
In the same film we had some AK47 shots, they didn't get changed much, that gun has a quite distinctive sound. I can't remember if the sound recordist recorded those, since the weapons were firing blanks, so was an option on the shooting day or if the were from a SFX library. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Oh okay sure. I can use previous recorded shots if that's better than. I just thought since I am going to the shooting range and being allowed to record for free anyway, then why not. But if they do not turn out well, I can always use other recordings if that's best.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
The choice is yours, just be aware of safety if placing a mic down range, especially if there are other users. Some gun users can have a relaxed attitude to the matter.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
"Hey, look at that nice shiny little target!"
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Oh okay thanks. I will do that. Thank for all for all into, everyone!
So no field recorder has the numbers on them though at all? I guess I find that kind of strange, since camera still tell you what ISO or f-stop you are at for example, instead of just not numbering them. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
Numbers on audio faders are probably pointless. You NEED to know iris settings to make decisions to do with dof or perhaps to assess when you are close to limits but it in audio apart from perhaps using them to put two at the same level, they don’t really do much and rotary pots are really difficult to read anyway. My Tascam has tiny numbers on a tiny knob so experience says to set gain usually means turning it all the way down and then up to around half. A teeny bit up or down watching an LED change colour is all I need to get it sorted. My Zoom is labelled 1-10 what the numbers mean is unimportant.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
He's still talking about numbers on audio faders? He really struggles understand simple concepts. He wants to video by numbers and rules.
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
My Marshall guitar amp goes to 11..
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
If you got a Dymo label maker and changed the top number to 12, would that increase the SPL coming out of the amp? ;-) What if you changed the labels to Roman numerals? Would the amp translate the mic input into Italian?
I truly worry about Ryan. With his seeming incomprehension of anything vaguely technical (e.g. numbers on a gain control knob) and inability to assimilate any information we give him, how can he perform any job that's even slightly technical. I can't imagine what it's like. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
One of the funniest scenes I can think of
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
I am coming to the conclusion that Ryan wants to be involved in producing video products really badly, but is ill prepared for any of the production or performance roles. He is only concerned in planning tasks to ridiculous detail but unable to convert any of the planning to anything other than point and shoot with his camera and inappropriate lens that he had years ago and won't ever change.
Most people on this and our forums are sadly equipment sponges. I know I am. If I get a bit of money to spend, I blow it quickly on something I fancy, and now I'm old I've got a warehouse full! Some is clearly junk, some is nostalgic, a small quantity is genuinely useful. I don't think Ryan has ever, in thousands of posts, talked about his new kit purchases. Tripods, heads, editing computers, monitors, lights, mics, booms, accessories. He talks about things I suspect he is given, or borrows which probably explains why he struggles using them. They're not his to practice with. |
Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
It was probably easier to use borrowed kit that you haven't used before in the days when you could set gain etc on a pot on the side or bottom of the kit using a screw driver, rather than using software,
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