Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Was hoping we could have a coffee over Christmas Brian - but I suspect the likelihood of a production this year is getting less and less. Perhaps we should try Saskatoon instead?

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Yes, I heard on the radio news that early August was midnight for the panto season, and the horses will be turning back to mice again..

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

The trouble is the Opera House have been dark since last panto and have sold a million and a half pounds worth of advance sales - so cancelling will be a very tough business decision. I hope the NI Government do something different. Normal opening capacities won't be decided until November which is far, far too late. Finger firmly crossed.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

The Incidence of Covid 19 has been relatively low in NI and they tend to follow the Republic of Ireland to a certain extent. If I was running a panto in Belfast I would be looking at the SSE Arena to allow social spacing. Of course, that doesn't help the Grand Opera House.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

In the early 1900's the capacity of the opera house was double what it is today at just over a thousand - that must have been horrible, especially as everyone smoked and many were on pipes!

The Arena pantomimes are pretty well agreed in the industry to be simply hopeless. Many tried video IMAG, so the little looks and asides were visible but they're just not panto. I suspect our American chums have no idea what we're talking about. Sorry folks!

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

The Belfast SSE Arena is used in a variety of sizes, full, half or theatre.They did a panto there a couple of years ago in theatre mode, it sort of worked, but it was up against the established GOH show. I suspect it needed more investment for it to really work.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

What is this! Ryan hasn't asked yet what mixer has pots that go to 11?

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Speaking of Spinal Tap, Harry Shearer (who was one of the writers, and played "Derek Smalls" in the cast) is still going strong. He voices several characters of The Simpsons, and produces his own weekly radio show "Le Show" https://harryshearer.com/le-show/

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Also speaking of Spinal Tap, I heard Christopher Guest was a jerk.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

I heard that Ellen Degeneres is a bigger jerk.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Yes Ive been reading that too. I wont lie...she had me totally fooled.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

They're actors after all. It's easy to get fooled if they're doing their job well... I'm always suspicious of anyone who's unnaturally nice.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Not only that but I was on a shoot with two of the Houston Texans who used to be kind of celebs (way before JJ), were in a few commercials etc, they mentioned during setup how they were guests on her show and how she was “just as nice as she seems.” Thinking about it though, DUH, they were GUESTS and celebs. A lot easier to be mean to people who depend on you for a livelihood.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Most are nice, some are just shy and private. Others are absolute tossers. One of the nicest people who I didn't expect to be nice (and I'm not sure why) was Jimmy Osmond. We were doing a show and his brothers arrived. I met them at Stage Door, and was on my way up to Jimmy's dressing room when jimmy arrived - saw me carrying one of their cases, and took it off me - saying "you don't need to do that". A genuinely nice fella. He's been ill for a while now, I hope he gets better soon. Some of them would be nice if it wasn't;t for the totally over the top attitude of their management.

An few years back we were doing a show with Hank Marvin, and when nobody was about I was demonstrating to the young crew the footwork the Shadows always did, and frankly, I was messing it badly up when a voice behind me said "would you like me to show them how to do it properly". Oops.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

I think I read something about Casper Van Dien, during the filming of Starship troopers, helping the grips move C stands etc. during setups when he wasn't working.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

I think the biggest contributing factor is if the person has an inordinate amount of power, money, and fame, any defect in their personality gets magnified because nobody says no to them.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

It can go the other way where they're barely known but THINK they're A-listers, with the same result.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

I've heard the leading man on a feature film discussing with the sparks on how to prevent a first time producer interfering during the production because he didn't know what he was doing.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Sometimes my job is to be 'nice' to the leading lady, to keep her out of everyone's hair. One TV well known face would hear my voice and shout at the top of her voice "Tea, two sugars, now!" One Sunday she phoned me and said she was feeling lonely, so needed taking out for lunch. I asked where she fancied - "somewhere with no riff riff". As we walked into the posh restaurant she looked at me and said "You did bring money, didn't you?". We also did a TV OB, and I was coat carrier. The floor manager shouted - we're off, coming back to us in 4:30. She'd snap her fingers and say "coat" - I'd put it around her shoulders. The floor manager would say 30 seconds everyone, she snap her fingers and yell coat again, and I'd take it off.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Hey there, everyone, thanks for the advice! I tried applying it as best as I could. I couldn't rent any dynamic mics, because of covid and all, and places were closed, but I used my condenser mics, and tried different distances. Of course I had to keep the gain turned down incredibly low to record the shots, so hopefully they are good. Thanks again!

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

An experiment never hurts, as long as nothing gets broken and you're not under any deadline. Did the waveform look clipped when you viewed it on your audio editing software?

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

No there is no clipping at all accept for the first couple since I had to get the levels right. But not for the rest of them. I am just not sure if there is distortion in other ways, since gunshots sound kind of distorted to begin with.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Yes, you're absolutely right. The mic preamp (before some of the controls) or even the mic itself could produce distortion, but that would not necessarily show up as clipping. Although it might produce a clipped-looking waveform at a level that's lower than 100%.

If you have heard some movies (or TV shows) that have gunshots that sound good to you, I guess you could compare your recordings to those. I believe this thread had some earlier links that talked about gunshot recordings, hopefully those are useful to you. I have no experience with gunshots so I'm afraid I can't provide any personal opinion.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

The great thing about gunshots is that they're always so obvious meaning in the edit you can just replace them.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Well I am going out to record them soon. I couldn't before because the event was cancelled but I am soon.

However, it worries me what was said before that the mic could be damaged from the loud sound of the gun. Is this true, even if you have the gain turned down super low?

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Why are we back to this?

On paper, loud sound can damage a thin mic capsule diaphragm, but I have never found any of my microphones, or my physical colleagues microphones damaged this way. I would suggest the chances of s loud sound making you drop the mic would be far more risky.

Forget this ryan, there's every chance it will distort but even that will be a transient you can edit. Move on and smile a bit. This one is not worth brain power.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

The mic will be damaged by the sound if it's far too loud. The same thing can happen to your ear drums, if it comes in the form of a shock wave from an explosion, it can even kill you. However, it's unlikely in this case. since you're not recording right beside the muzzle of an artillery piece, as Paul says distortion on the recording is the more likely outcome.

This is a physical effect, which has nothing to do with the gain levels used on your recorder..

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Think of what can actually happen. You have a backplate and then a thin film of mylar or similar. In a typical electret, the film has a permanent charge on it, that lasts for years and years. If the sound pressure level is high enough to make the flexible element make contact with the rear plate, the charge dissipates instantly, and the capsule is dead. A near excursion might over stretch it, but a short is the likely killer, and to do that it needs to be VERY, VERY loud, and I doubt even a moderately close gunshot is enough. Your ear drums are likely to get damaged more than a microphone, being fair.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

As mentioned earlier, dynamic microphones are more resistant to damage from loud transients than condenser mics.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

The trouble is, we've all been told that exposure to loud sounds destroys condensers, and the physics matches completely, but what none of us have, is a figure for spl@distance=destruction. We sometimes have max SPL - but is this for the point of distortion reaching maximum, or output reaching saturation, or what......?

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Oh okay well for the one short film I recorded audio on, I recorded an actor screaming, in the same scene as dialogue and it was all using the same mic. I turned down the gain a lot, but the scream didn't seem to destroy the mic and the mic still worked fine.

So if a mic can take an extremely loud scream, could it take a gun shot as long as the gain was turned down extremely low, and I stood back about 10-20 feet as mentioned before?

On microbudget productions, if there is only one mic in the budget, do they just use that to record everything, but take precautions to prevent damage?

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

A gun is usually louder than a scream, but shorter in duration. Indoors it will have even more impact.

This is going over old ground, Haven't you read the previous 7 pages, where the technique of recording gun shots was explained? Can't you work out a progressive method of moving in closer with each shot, so everything is recorded in a methodical and safe way? .

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Ryan - put a sound app on your phone and get somebody to fire a gun (I hear this is absurdly easy throughout the Americas). These apps will tell you how loud it was If you can get a reading.

Have you thought about every recorded gunshot you have ever heard. None of those - absolutely NONE killed the microphone. You are dreaming up dangers that are extremely tiny. If the shooter doesn't go instantly deaf, then the mic will be fine. The damage comes from putting the microphone in VERY VERY close to the muzzle where the pressure is greatest. You point your mic, you watch the display. If it goes off the top, the gain was too high. If you have a zoom or similar it will have pads and one combination of pad and gain adjustment will work perfectly well. I'd suggest that until you are within 3 feet of the muzzle your worst problem will simply be distortion, not damage. The inverse square law means the volume drops very quickly as you move away. Watch the American crazy gun videos and see people with cheap cameras recording shooting at ranges - they are not being destroyed.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Ryan, the fact that you have asked this twice indicates that, sadly, you have absolutely no conception of how audio (mics, amps, sound waves, etc.) works. I say "sadly" because someone past high school who has so little understanding of the field would seem to be pursuing the wrong line of work and, I suspect, will always be frustrated.

Brian already answered this a few hours ago. Did you read his answer? If so, why are you asking this again?

This is so simple and should be so intuitive. The gain setting does not somehow send a secret message to the mic saying "don't be sensitive to large shock waves." If in fact a shock wave (from a firearm, as we're discussing here) is large enough to damage a mic, it wouldn't matter where the gain is set, or even whether the mic is plugged in. The damage is caused because the shock wave pushes the diaphragm further than it is designed to move. It's the same reason a human can have their hearing instantly damaged (or lost) because of excess pressure waves from gunshots.

As others have said, a scream is not the same as a gunshot. The former is some waveform that continues over a second or so, while changing in frequency, waveform, etc. A gunshot starts with a large sharp rise in air pressure, especially close to the muzzle. (Then there are various resonances, echoes from nearby objects, etc.) Additionally, a gunshot is much louder than a scream. All this info can easily be found on Google.

What would you do if you hadn't found a forum like this one? Would you then look for some books containing the appropriate knowledge? In all seriousness, do you have difficulty reading? (e.g. are you dyslexic?) If you can read normally, please go to the library or buy a few books about very basic audio, basic acoustics, etc. and read them. Unless you want to be very confused and needy for your entire life.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Buy this book:
The Sound Reinforcement Handbook by Gary Davis, Ralph Jones, Gary Davis

It's full of useful information AND the physics behind it - and it's from Yamaha, so a manufacturer of long standing. My understanding is they commissioned the book to correct misunderstandings in the live sound world where mistakes can be uncorrectable - there being no take 2!

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

I've read the Yamaha book. It's everything you want to know about PA systems, preamps, mic types, gain staging, etc.

I learned a lot of the basics from a hardback about radio broadcasting, which was published by CBS. That was MANY moons ago. I have since tried to find the book, but without success; I'm sure it's long out of publication. Also the Audio Cyclopedia was a great resource, but is much too deep for beginner-level reading.

I think it might be helpful if other folks would make suggestions for Ryan's reading list.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Oh okay I see thanks, sorry for my misunderstanding of it. Well I managed to get out today, and record some gunshots. I couldn't set the fader at unity like normal, because it's way too loud for a gun shot if you try to turn it up to unity. I turned the fader up to 15% and the gain up to about 5% or even lower for some of the guns.

At these settings the levels were around -24 decibles, some shots reached -12.

However, I am not happy with because they sound like any other online. They sound too far away. I stood about 10-20 feet away like I was advised to on here, but that changes the perspective though. Or here are some samples, what do you think of them?

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Why did you think unity was where the gain would go? They sound exaltly like what they were distant gun shots, so why didn't you carry on the experiment and shoot a few at closer distances? His would let you be used to how the gains/pads work. You are just doing what you did in your old shotgun mic tests. Too far away. If you personally find the bangs too loud so hearing protection would be sensible, that's the closest I'd want to go. The only weapon I have ever held and fired was a shotgun, but I'd have risked any of my mics where my ears were.

If you want audio perspective to sound real for the context, then use a video camera and then you can see if it sounds right and the images match the sound.

You've heard mics can be destroyed, and have over-reacted as usual. Listen to sound effect library gunshots. If they recorded them close, so can you. Tell you what, look up the spl for the level a snare or kick drum creates with mics just an inch or too away. Plenty of mics work for these loud sources, and one of them is pretty cheap and bomb proof. If you are worried this much, borrow an SM57 or D112 and put them very close. The won't even notice!

However, on recording forums you often find beginners complaining their kick is distorted. People explain the pads and gain settings, like here, but NEVER have I found somebody who destroyed their condenser mic, they just got a poor sound.

If you are going to experiment, do it properly

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

There's a point when you can't get any closer because you can't adjust the levels any further. I would take it up to - 4, which I know works with the drums on our local loyalist bands. Setting that level with a gun, will be a bit more fiddly, because there's no steady beat. You can use pads or attenuators on the mic, which allow you to get closer,

Analogue tape recordings can sound rather good when driven over the mox levels on the meter for some sounds, but you can't do that with digital.

I'm not sure why you should think your gun shots would sound much different to those recorded by other people. If you want different you need to experiment more, which what the guys who create the major sound effect libraries do.

Also, bear in mind, the gun effects used in feature films are mostly created in post by the sound people by combining various gun sounds. They may have their own favoured cocktails in their personal sound effects library.

Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?
 

Oh okay, it was just pointed out on here before that getting real close could damage the mic, so was weary of doing that therefore. It was also pointed out before that the shotgun mic, even if not damaged, would still sound too distorted because of the signal to noise ratio involving loud noises. So I was trying to avoid distortion as well. But I was more so afraid of the mic getting damaged possibly from being too close, as pointed out.

But when you say 'why did I think unity is where the gain would go', I said that I started out with the fader at unity, not the gain. It was said before on here, to start out with the fader at unity when setting the levels, so that's what I was doing.