Schoeps CMC 641
 

After reading various posts in this forum, I've decided to get a Schoeps CMC 641. I'll be doing mostly interior shoots so I'm wondering what kind of boom should I get? I'm really new to this sound business and I'm not sure what else I would need. Any help would be greatly appreciated. :-)

K-Tek avalon series for the boom. How are you powering that Schoeps? You'll need to have some way to roll off the bass or the handling noise will kill you.

The Avalon series? What about the Graphite? Or are they the same thing? Can someone clarify this? I can't seem to find any info about differences between the two.

Those are their high-end poles. If you have the money, yeah, it's definitely a step up.

Hey Marco, thx for the reply. Haha, that was about six months ago. How would you recommend me to power the Schoeps? I haven't get it after all this time but finally could secure enough budget so it's happening soon. I will also be getting a CMIT5U. Thanks a lot.

Are you planning on sending sound to record in the camera ("single system") or are you planning on recording sound separately and mating it to picture in post ("double system")? What camera are you using? What other audio gear - preamps, mixers, recorders, etc - do you presently have or plan on acquiring?

Both of the Schoeps mics you mention require full 48v phantom power and they're not happy with the lower voltages that you sometimes encounter in consumer gear that claims to provide phantom. But professional quality mixers or preamps such as the Sound Devices 302, 442, MixPre and others from PSC, Wendt, Shure, etc or the XLR mic inputs on professional and some prosumer cameras that supply phantom power for mics should do the job for you. And of course almost all decent studio mixers like the Mackie compact series also provide proper phantom power.

Hey Steve, I'm currently using a HVR-Z1U. The problem is I'm getting started with this whole sound business so I'm not too sure on what to get myself. But I do know that I will be getting those 2 mics. I hope this doesn't sound too stupid but I am hoping that I could get some input here. What kind of audio gear do you think I should get to complement these Schoeps?

Why those two mics as the first items in your kit? Don't get me wrong, both of those Schoeps are top-of-the-line outstanding microphones but it sort of seems like you've chosen the tools before defining the job. What are you going to be shooting? (The considerations for scripted dialog on a soundstage would be different from music videos would be different from weddings and events would be different from run-and-gun ENG, get me?) Are you a one-man-band or will you have a crew with someone to assist with audio?

Your Z1U has XLR mic connectors with phantom power so your earlier question of how to power the mics is covered. What else you do or might need is a pretty tall order without knowing a lot more of where you're headed with this. Other items you MIGHT include, depending on your style of shooting and subject matter ...

Handheld interview mic;
Wireless mics;
Lavalier mics;
Field Mixer such as Sound Devices MixPre, 302, or 442 and others;
for double system sound (expecially concerts), recording wild sound, or for collecting Foley & FX perhaps an Audio Recorder;
Headphone/Monitor amp and mic line preamp for boom operator;
Headphones or IEM for Camera Op, Sound Op, Boom Op;
You might need IFB so camera and sound ops can talk to each other;
Boom Pole;
Shockmount;
Pistol Grip;
Wind Protection - Zepplin? Dead Cat?;
Conventional XLR cables;
Mixer or Boom Op to Camera breakway audio snake;
don't forget a "Speed! - Marker! - Scene 3 Take 14 Whap!" old-fashioned clapperboard slate;
and the most important of all, wearable bags to carry it all in!

We are mostly planning to make fiction shorts. I used to be a one-man band but recently found someone who has experience with using Protools before and know a little bit about how sound works. So she agreed to help with audio, which is why I'm getting all these stuff now.

The next thing I'm going to get is a boom pole and I've settled with K-tek, just haven't decide the specific model yet. I'm still looking for a shockmount too and of course a mixer (what would you recommend for this?). Lavs is another item that I'm looking around for too. What kind of wind protection would you suggest? I've been told that Rycote is the way to go. Uh... what else is there? Regarding headphones, I think I can refer to one of the other ongoing threads, seems like they have a good discussion going. I guess I'm gonna need some earbuds too. Forgive this stupid question but what's a pistol grip and what do you use it for?

Depending on the number of input channels you require, the Sound Devices MixPre (2 channels), 302 (3 channels), or 442 (4 channels) are all solid performers. There are a number of other other brands, of course, but Sound Devices has a very strong reputation among network and film industry mixers who need outstanding audio performance along with battery operation and portability.

A pistol grip would fit on the shockmount in place of the boom so your boom op could hold it in their hand like a pistol and aim it at the talent. Your camera angle might be such that a boom positioned close to the talent would intrude into the frame. Someone kneeling on the ground in front of the talent could aim a mic at them while being hidden below the bottom edge. Luckily we're not talking about something that costs a fortune here.

"Why those two mics as the first items in your kit?"

I hear you Steve, but I don't think he can go wrong with those two mics so long as money isn't an issue. I wouldn't make a pitsol grip a big priority right now. As far as the shockmount goes, there's lots of options, but I've noticed lately every time I see photo of a major studio shoot they always seem to have PSC shockmount. I think it's this one:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

There's a six inch version as well.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

We have the hotshoe mount version, and its noise dampening ability is impressive. I've been meaning to pick up a boom pole version, but haven't really had a compelling reason. We use the old standby AT8415. We've got one with K-Tek bands and one with regular bands. I haven't seen much difference, except the mic tends to want to slip out of the K-Tek bands.

Oh I agree - they are great mics and I envy his ability to make them his first mics. Just that as good as they are, if I was gearing up to mainly shoot sit down interviews I'd probably buy lavs before getting a shotgun, for example. Three kilobucks worth of mics deserves a bit of forethought as to what you plan to do with them <grin>. I was just curious how he'd come to select them when he didn't know what other things he might need in the kit. I was just listing other things that he might, or might not, eventually want or need need.

Ok, I guess I'll put off the pistol grip for now since none of the scripts that we have now seem to require it. Thanks for the recommendation on Sound Devices, Steve, I'm looking into it now.

Regarding headphones, I read in the other thread that Remote Audio 7506 seems to be the best choice. What do you guys think? I also want to ask about the IFB. This is so that the person operating the camera can communicate with the boom right? It doesn't seem necessary to me since if there's any problem then the director can just yell "Cut!" and they could discuss it. I'm confused as to how the IFB will figure into this.

Marco, thanks for the link to the shockmounts. Just to clarify, those shockmounts are to be mounted on the boom pole right? Can they be fitted onto the camera too? And then about the XLR cables, is this the kind that I should get?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...lue=292985_REG

You're not planning on recording directly into the Z1U, are you?

-Pasty

That's what I'm planning to do. Is it not recommended? I'm sorry for what I'm sure are dumb questions but I'm a newbie with this whole sound stuff.

Well, the other guys may disagree, but to me it makes no sense to spend so much money on top-end mics and an excellent preamp, then feed that into a camcorder that compresses it into an mp3... it's 384 kbps, but it's mp3 nonetheless. I'd suggest a field recorder so that you can record your audio uncompressed, and preferrably 24bit so that you can actually make full use of those expensive mics!
Sound Devices has several nice models which of course implement their excellent preamps. I've got the Tascam HD-P2 and I'm quite happy with it. You can certainly record to the camera and achieve good results, but if I were about to get a couple of the best mics on the market, I'd certainly want to get the most out of them.

-pasty

Wow, this is definitely getting more and more expensive haha. So you are saying let's say I got a Sound Devices 442 like Steve suggested, I should get a preamp too right? So does preamp equal field recorder or are those 2 different things? I'm getting more and more confused here.

And then let's say I record to the preamp/field recorder, how do I import them into the PC? Can I use Protools to edit the sound or am I thinking of the wrong software altogether?

Well, on the Tascam HD-P2, it records WAV files to a CF card which you can just toss in a card reader and pull it straight onto your computer. You can then edit in whatever audio suite you've got.

The Sound Devices 722 field recorder is actually less expensive than the 442 mixer. The 442 has 4 channels and some more advanced features (more tweakable), but the 722 looks to be a pretty sweet 2-channel option. The 722 has a 40GB internal hard drive which I'm sure you can probably just plug straight into your PC and edit right on there, and it also takes CF cards.

If you're using a Z1U, the only potential problem that comes to mind with a field recorder is syncing. Z1U can't sync with any sort of timecode that I'm aware of, so if you aren't experienced with syncing audio up to video, that could be a setback for you. That would be one major benefit to recording striaght onto the Z1U. Of course, even if you got the 722, it still has balanced outputs so you could use the preamps and go straight into the Z1U if you decided you didn't feel like syncing audio on any particular shoot.

Just some thoughts!

-pasty

Not taking those syncing factors into consideration, the 442 mixer would be better than the 772 right? Even though the latter has a hard drive. If I decide to get the 442, how would I import sound to the PC? One way is to feed it into the camera but I'm just wondering if there is any other way?

Mixers always have their own preamps so you don't necessarily need additional ones if you have a mixer. But you might want one anyway. It all depends on how many crew you have and how you're micing the shot. A large Hollywood production crew might have both a boom operator (sometimes even more than one) and a sound mixer (person). The boom op would have a preamp/headphone amp on his belt which takes the mic signal, and lets him hear it in his headphones so he can tell if everything is going as it should with mic aiming etc and also sends the signal along to a mixer (equipment) on the sound cart which in turn sends signal to the sound recorder. At the cart the mixer (the person) operates & monitors the mixer (equipment) and the recorder. With just a two-man, camera op and sound, ENG or documentary crew on the other hand, the sound person places the mics, operates the boom if one is used for the shot, and often carries the audio gear in a bag on his person. If it's single system sound he carries a mixer (equipment) OR a preamp but doesn't need both. That sends audio to the camera either wirelessly or through a breakaway tether cable. If it's double system sound he would carry the recorder instead of a mixer and he'd be busier than a one-armed paperhanger.

The 442 is a mixer, the 722 is a recorder. Different gear that does different things. If you have the 442 you still need some way to record the signal. You can either feed a recorder like the 722, 744, etc or you can record in camera. Using a separate recorder is called double-system sound while recording in camera is called single-system sound. Either way, you have to record it in something on the set to carry it back to the computer for your post production <g> and mixers by themselves don't record anything. IF you're using double system, whether you need BOTH a mixer and a recorder or just a recorder depends on how many mics your're using at once and other specifics of the shot.

Ok, thanks a lot for the info so far everyone. I've settled with the K-152 pole and now I'm wondering which shockmount should I get, maybe K-tek or PSC? Any recommendations?

I also hear that it is recommended to use the cut1 filter for Schoeps CMC641. Do I still need the filter if I use a shockmount or would it be sufficient?

Martin,

I'd recommend that you hunt down Jay Rose's book on Producing Great Sound for Digital Video. It will help you make smart choices about what to buy and in what order. In addition, it's a great place to start in learning how to use all those new toys, because, much like cameras, the microphone by itself doesn't make great sound. How you use it is critical too.

Good luck!

The Cut one does work, but the 442 mixer has a pretty nice high pass filter. The use of one is a source of constant discussion professionally. Some do some don't.

Regards,

Ty Ford

I think you have made some great choices. Why? Sound is more
important than image in making your work professional. You will
spend the money ONCE and have tools that will always do a great job.

If you decide to leave the business, those mics will sell in a nano second
and for not much less than what you paid. Sometimes good mics go
up in value. Try that buying Samson or Nady ;)

My recommendation for a boom pole is van den Bergh. High end pro stuff.

If you move to the great outdoors (and I bet you will sometime in the
future) look into Rycote windscreen/shock mount systems.

www.locationsound.com is one vendor.

Hey Ralph, I got Jay's book along with his postproduction one. Really useful indeed! I also got Ty's small audio guide which should be handy on the set. I just leafed through it but it seems good to me. And Jacques, thanks for the suggestion, I'm actually tempted to ditch K-tek and go with vdB instead since the pricing doesn't seem to be that different. Interestingly, locationsound.com doesn't sell vdB poles.

Thanks Martin,

I've been writing articles for 20 years and (as a reader) found myself frustrated by a lot of 'how to" books. I specifically tried to break through that thing where you know they are trying to tell you something, but you just can't quite figure out what it is.

Good audio is not plug and play. Every setup offers new challenges. It's about knowing what to expect from tools as well as how to think about the best solutions for any given situation. I created the checklist on the back cover and index so readers can more easily find answers.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Martin,

First of all I think you should go have a look at this:

http://www.preciseaudio.com/Technical_1.htm

I wrote this several years ago, but it's still valid.

If you are going to spend so much money on high quality mics, it would be a waste to record them just on the Z1. HDV sound is not PCM and has high compression.

A very cheap alternative, which is usually overlooked, is recording double-system on a Sony MZ-RH10. It's a Hi-MD minidisc which records linear PCM, with no compression.

Link it to the Z1's headphone output (is there any other audio output on the Z1 that works during recording?) and monitor headphone from the RH10. You may even have a higher level output from it.

Only problem with working this way is that you will have to sync every scene, using clapper or the audio waveform.

If you go this path you should definitely work differently, using an external mixer like the Sound Devices, with proper external preamps (better than Sony's), LED metering, accurate limiters, proper level pots and proper monitoring. Then you can send your audio both to the camera and the mini-Disc.


Carlos

Like I said before, this is getting more and more expensive haha. Thanks for the suggestion Carlos. But I have a question. If I use the RH10, so I plug it to the Z1 and then plug the headphone into the RH10 right? Where does the mixer come in then? Great article, by the way :-)

Everything in balance - it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to spend on the order of 4 or 5 kilobucks in microphones and mixer, etc, and then have the sound quality ultimately depend on quality of the A/D converters in a sub-$100 consumer grade recorder. For double system continuing with the same level of equipment as the camera, mics and mixer you've mentioned, etc, I'd look at HHB Portadisk if you're attracted to the minidisc format, Marantz 670, Sound Devices 702T, 722, or 744T, Tascam HD-P2 or similar offerings from Edirol. That covers the range from slightly sub 1 kilobuck up to around 5k. Of course if money is no object you could go for a HHB Portadrive or a Deva V, either of which will set you back circa 15 grand <grin>.

No really more expensive, but more analytical. The paths I suggest are two:

1) Plug the mic/s in the camera, feeding phantom from them. Set levels in camera too, using no internal filters. Then feed Sony RH10 from headphone output, though if there's any other audio output available it's much better. Then plug headphones in RH-10.

2) Plug mics into mixer or preamp, headphone can be plugged on camera (if you are close) or on mixer. Feed Z1 and RH-10 from mixer. If you can use a return cable for camera headphone output and plug into mixer, if it allows so.

I'm pleased you liked the article. Thanks!

Carlos

First of all the Sony RH-10 is not made any more and certainly was not a sub-$100 recorder. Think around $300. A similar model would be the new RH-1 ($330), or the slightly simpler M100 ($250).

But even a non-Hi type from Sony or Sharp will surpass the audio quality you can get from a PD, even more from any HDV. I did tests that prove that, using quality mics and mixers. BTW: I live off renting audio equipment, so it's my business to know what works and how it works.

Second it's linear PCM we are talking about, and as long as you use the minidisc line input your sound will be comparable to DAT. Taping in a much better media than tape: MD.

I don't think HHB Portadisk or Marantz MD systems are too good, if we compare them to mating a quality Hi-MD recorder (which neither the HHB nor the Marantz are not) with a Sound Devices Mixpre ($666). That might be the best way to spend less than a kilobuck. Even the MD media is much more practical than that used on the several-kilobuck SD 722 or 744.

No comments about the Portadrive or Deva, of course.

Hmmm... The HHB Portadrive and Deva V are definitely out of the question, way too expensive haha. And also I don't think I need to be using such advanced recorder (at least not yet :P). For now it does seem like the Sound Devices Mixpre and the Tascam HD-P2 are the two most appealing options. The SD 7 series also look very good but they are still quite costly. Am I right to say that a mixer is more important than a recorder? Do you guys think it's wise to but a good mixer like the 442 but not spend as much for the recorder?

You are quoting quite an interesting dilemma: where to spend the money?

In the old times that was much easier, as the Nagra did both things well: mix and record. Then came DAT, which didn't last long. And now there are several ways to record, none being the winner, which is a pity.

Sound Devices seems not to be able to attend the demand for their recorders, and the usual words at B&H for it are "accepting orders" or "out of stock". Frustrating.

The other good devices (Deva, Portadrive, Fostex) are too expensive and not too easy to learn using. Cheaper devices, like some from Tascam and Fostex, are not that reliable or have several compromises.

So if you don't want to spend money on what you are not sure of, I think you should spend it on a good basic mixer. The Sound Devices Mixpre or 302 are good deals, for two or three mics. You would have to pay a lot more for going for 4 channels, and you may never need them. That is if you are not planning to become a full time location soundman.

And here comes the recorder question again: it won't be easy to solve. My suggestion still goes: Hi-MD. It's cheap, reliable, high quality. There are recent releases from Edirol and the Microtrack from M-Audio, only for wav recordings, of course.

One thing that is not mentioned anywhere on this thread is that you may need doing some stereo pick-ups too, so you should have some way to set your Schoeps mics as a stereo pair. And for that you definitely need a mixer.

The mic suspensions mentioned are not that good, IMHO, and you should look for something more "elastic", something that lets your mics to "float" as you move them. The PSC suspension is good for less-sensitive mics.

This CF-based model seems like a good compromise:

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/702t.htm

Priced $2,375 at B&H and in stock.

About the integration of mixer and recorder have a look at what SD says:

"While the 702T is a very capable recorder by itself, it truly excels when used in conjunction with an outboard audio mixer such as Sound Devices’ own 442 or 302."

Will that help on your decision?


Carlos

Whgen I googled for the RH-10 yesterday I could have sworn the price I saw was $79.99. The current model lists as a MZRH-10 on the Sonystyle website for $399, don't how I could've missed it.

Linear PCM or not, the result is only going to be as good as the Analog to Digital converters doing the signal conversion and I just can't believe the converters in a consumer Walkman are going to be as good as those in a professional recording interface or recorder.

Remember the SD MixPre is a mixer/preamp while the Tascam HD-P2 is a recorder. They complement each other but they're not either/or replacements for each other. Most recorders do have direct mic inputs it's true, so strictly speaking, a mixer isn't always necessary with one. However the combination of a mixer and a recorder gives you the more control and flexibility than a recorder by itself. If you're going to record in camera, OTOH, the camera replaces the recorder and a mixer upstream from the camera again gives you more flexibility and control.

In essence your choices for the basic signal paths and recording devices are:

Single System...
Picture: Camera
Sound: Mic->Mixer/Preamp->Camera

Double System...
Picture: Camera
Sound: Mic->Mixer/Preamp->Recorder

You can possibly eliminate the mixer from either one but with some sacrifices.

The 442 is great but a lower priced alternative you might want to look at that is equal in quality, just doesn't have quite as many features, is the 302. Essentially what it gives up are 1 mic input (3 intead of 4) and direct outs for each mic input (the 442 allows you to tap the mic signals for each input after the preamps but before the mixer sections, useful for multitrack recording on the 744T recorder or similar). I've been giving a lot of thought to a 302 to use with either a Tascam HD-P2 or a SD 702T. I'm leaning towards the SD since while the Tascam supports timecode input it doesn't generate code.

One thing I have heard is that the 442 can only take
2 "mic level" ins, not 4. The other 2 ins must be "line
level". Not sure if this is true or not.

More coffee for you. The 744T has two preamps. The 442 has four.

I own both.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ok, so here we go... I'm going to try to sum everything up.

1) Mics: Schoeps CMC641 and CMIT5U
2) Mixer: Sound Devices 442
3) Recorder: Sound Devices 702
4) Boom pole: K-tek 152
5) Shockmount: PSC? (any better suggestions?)
6) Wind protection: Rycote
7) Headphone: Sony MDR 7506

I think I got it all there. What do you guys think?

Just a slight alteration - the SD 702T instead of the 702 so you have timecode capability. And if you're going to have a boom op, a Sound Devices MM-1 mic preamp and headphone amp so he too can monitor.