Recorder versus Using Mixer to Camera?

Dan Keaton · June 30th, 2007, 07:01 AM

Dear Ty,

I also have been very pleased with the Tram TR50.

What is your opinion of the TR50?

Ron Priest · July 1st, 2007, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Moretti

I'm trying to figure out the benefits of using a recorder versus sending the mixer output to the camera....So do you like recorders, find their worth it? If so, want to suggest any?
THANKS MUCH.

Well I'll soon find out. I've recently purchased the Edirol R4 which is a 4 channel recorder. I plan on using it at weddings and receptions. With the built in limiters I'm hoping to set the levels turn it on, and walk away and just concentrate on shooting video.

Ty Ford · July 1st, 2007, 06:29 PM

Hi Dan,

Haven't tried one yet.

Thanks,

Ty

Dan Keaton · July 2nd, 2007, 07:12 AM

Dear Ty,

I compared the Sanken Cos-11 to the Tram TR-50 side by side.

The dealer recommended the Sanken over the Tram.

To my ears, the Tram sounded better. Then, the very well respected dealer compared the two and agreed.

This was only one test, but I was surprised.

Carlos E. Martinez · July 5th, 2007, 05:15 AM

This discussion is very interesting, and it seems to repeat several issues I raised myself recently on this and other forums.

1) HDV sound. How bad is it and how you can get away with it? As I have been doing several recordings for the same project using HDV and DV cameras at the same time, I must say it doesn't seem to be too much of a compromise... as long as you are recording just dialogue.

2) External recorder. You may notice a difference if you use an external recorder and sync the audio later, using the camera audio simply as a guide. This is valid both for HDV and DV. If possible use a mixer and send the same audio for recorder and cameras, as on some situations the camera audio quality will be fine and you can use it, simplifying your editing. You will need quality monitor speakers to check that.

3) TC or slate. Clap slating is disturbing when use for documentaries. You can sync audio and video later looking at the audio spectrum, like what Avid provides. If you are organized you can even clap your hands on camera when beginning or ending your shot, which may prove less disturbing.

4) Tram mics are very good, butthey proved a bit fragile for field work, in my experience. Several died on me after some time. This may be related to mic/cable strain, whi ch some interviewees tend to push. AKG, PSC and Sony sound very good and seem to be take most field situations better.

Jim Boda · July 5th, 2007, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Dear Ty,

I compared the Sanken Cos-11 to the Tram TR-50 side by side.

The dealer recommended the Sanken over the Tram.

To my ears, the Tram sounded better. Then, the very well respected dealer compared the two and agreed.

This was only one test, but I was surprised.

I prefer the Sanken for multiple reasons. The Tram has alot of presence and picks up alot of clothing noise. It sounds better with the beastly windscreen in place. I don't want to use that beastly windscreen (unless I have to).

I prefer the top element in the Sanken. It's sound is a better match (for me) with the Shotgun mic. The real advantage is in being able to hide the mic. It fit's great taped between a woman's breasts or in the knot of a man's tie.

I always grab the Sanken over the Tram both for it's sound and visability.

Ty Ford · July 5th, 2007, 08:10 AM

Thanks Jim,

One of the most difficult things to track with lavs is their overall sound. The specific application determines the sound.

In free air lavs sound one way, but that changes rather dramatically when (and how) they are attached on a person.

Then there's how they sound plugged into different wireless xmitters. The front ends (preamps) of the xmitters vary widely. Some lavs sound better in some xmitters than others. Don't ask me for lists. I don't have them. Try it yourself.

Clothing noise is another factor, but again, that's also pursuant to how they are mounted. Is it mic rub or cable rub noise? Not much you can do witth mic rub noise except move the mic. I'm going to make a B R O A D generalization here and suggest that if something rubs ANY lav directly, you're going to hear it.

Cable noise, OTOH, may be mitigated or eliminated by G-taping a coil of lav cable close to the mic.

Regards,

Ty Ford

June 30th, 2007, 07:01 AM	#16
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Ty, I also have been very pleased with the Tram TR50. What is your opinion of the TR50? __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 1st, 2007, 06:29 PM	#18
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Hi Dan, Haven't tried one yet. Thanks, Ty __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

July 2nd, 2007, 07:12 AM	#19
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Ty, I compared the Sanken Cos-11 to the Tram TR-50 side by side. The dealer recommended the Sanken over the Tram. To my ears, the Tram sounded better. Then, the very well respected dealer compared the two and agreed. This was only one test, but I was surprised. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

July 5th, 2007, 08:10 AM	#22
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Thanks Jim, One of the most difficult things to track with lavs is their overall sound. The specific application determines the sound. In free air lavs sound one way, but that changes rather dramatically when (and how) they are attached on a person. Then there's how they sound plugged into different wireless xmitters. The front ends (preamps) of the xmitters vary widely. Some lavs sound better in some xmitters than others. Don't ask me for lists. I don't have them. Try it yourself. Clothing noise is another factor, but again, that's also pursuant to how they are mounted. Is it mic rub or cable rub noise? Not much you can do witth mic rub noise except move the mic. I'm going to make a B R O A D generalization here and suggest that if something rubs ANY lav directly, you're going to hear it. Cable noise, OTOH, may be mitigated or eliminated by G-taping a coil of lav cable close to the mic. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog Last edited by Ty Ford; July 5th, 2007 at 08:12 AM. Reason: mo info

July 5th, 2007, 05:15 AM	#20
Carlos E. Martinez Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil Posts: 1,138	This discussion is very interesting, and it seems to repeat several issues I raised myself recently on this and other forums. 1) HDV sound. How bad is it and how you can get away with it? As I have been doing several recordings for the same project using HDV and DV cameras at the same time, I must say it doesn't seem to be too much of a compromise... as long as you are recording just dialogue. 2) External recorder. You may notice a difference if you use an external recorder and sync the audio later, using the camera audio simply as a guide. This is valid both for HDV and DV. If possible use a mixer and send the same audio for recorder and cameras, as on some situations the camera audio quality will be fine and you can use it, simplifying your editing. You will need quality monitor speakers to check that. 3) TC or slate. Clap slating is disturbing when use for documentaries. You can sync audio and video later looking at the audio spectrum, like what Avid provides. If you are organized you can even clap your hands on camera when beginning or ending your shot, which may prove less disturbing. 4) Tram mics are very good, butthey proved a bit fragile for field work, in my experience. Several died on me after some time. This may be related to mic/cable strain, whi ch some interviewees tend to push. AKG, PSC and Sony sound very good and seem to be take most field situations better.