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Modern disk systems work with handeling electronics on each end (IDE Integrated Drive Electronics, DMA transfers etc). So this hardware can block download to disk electoriics which can then dribble the informatyion ou to the disk. You can write to memory, send a request to the hardware system to pickup the information and write it out via DMA, while your program perfoms more compression. But what we are talking about is also passing the output through memory to the comrpession program (replacing raw disk read with half as many comrpessed reads). Leaving out all the stuff about buffers etc to optimise this process. So you get the request, and you get the a number of cycles per 64bit/s (preferably 2 cycles).
We have determine the max sustain data rate for a really good disk is something like 50mb/s, we also are looking at raid. In old disk system you had to do it all manually as you said. |
What disk is that??
not a 7200 rpm one for sure. The fastest ATA disk in the world is the Western Digital Raptor SATA 72 MB/s No other ATA disk (SATA or PATA) writes more... I don't get the rest of your post, sorry. |
Let's do something useful.
I was wondering what is the cheapest cameralink frame grabber out there. I did a google search and came up with a mass of hits, there is a range of cameras and framegrabbers out there. So I found the cameralink standards homepage, and product links. In this I also found small industrial capture computers running embedded windows. I am very tired and haven't done much pricing yet, but I am posting it here so you guys can have a look. Maybe we are barking up the wrong tree, it is so prolific maybe there are ready made systems and capture software for pro video capture out there allready, that we might be able to get volume discount on. I don't remember if anybody has looked at this site yet. Cameralink http://www.machinevisiononline.org/p...ex.cfm?cat=129 Registered Cameralink products http://www.machinevisiononline.org/p...ls.cfm?id=1108 Gigbe http://www.machinevisiononline.org/p...ex.cfm?cat=167 Product Search http://www.machinevisiononline.org/buyers_guide/ |
We discussed a raid system that sustained around 200MB/s with four of the drives, in the threads. You can search them easily, by selecting the most posts per page in your site preferences and using ctrl-F, to search each page for "raid".
When you said raptor before I thought you meant one of the HD video raid systems I've heard of, sorry, but 72mb/s sustianed would be great. The rest of the stuff I mentioned is just how modern drive electronics makes it possible to transfer 8 bytes at a time (64bit memory bus) for around 2-3 memory cycles. If your in cache most of the time than the amount of extra processing time taken up by the disk can be minimal (of course it is a bit more complex and the processor is also accessing the capture card and writting to memory and that stuffs up the free flow of memory and can slow it down a bit). But still the drive write time should not effect the processor too much (except it has to wait for the drive) if done rightly. Thanks Wayne. |
Wayne, no RAID system with normal disks will give you 200 MB/s if yopu use normal disks ( I mean 4 normal disks).
It would give you 200 MB/s if they were 4 Raptor or $ SCSI 10,000 rpm disks. Please believe me. |
Juan, I didn't say normal disks, I said Raid disks (I don't know wether they where ATA or SATA Raid disks), 4 of them, and obviously the best ones they could find for the benchmark they did, for all I know they might even be raptors.
It is useless arguing about such little things, the threads are there to be read to catch up with everything people have read. The more important fact is that if the Raptors can do 72MB/s sustained (not peak/burst speed) they should do well over 200MB's in a 4 raid version system. That means we have a single bayer 1080 drive, and a 4 raid drive 3chip 1080 and bayer SHD system. Which is amazing news. Thanks Wayne. |
<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : OK.
Rob L: average vs peak clock rates. The average is the visible image size x frame rate (1280x720x24fps = 22.1Mpix/sec). Due to blanking time, for the SI-1300 to do that rate, the pixel clock is 27MHz. This is the rate that, during image readout, the bus must meet. With an HD with a big buffer, the average # works fine. Wayne: USB 2.0. To get high data rates, you eat a fair amount of CPU time. Also, transfer rates are highly dependent on the host controller. Intel ICH4 and 5 south bridges are 2-3x faster than external controllers. The typical USB interface chip has small FIFOs making real-time tough at high rates when you don't want to drop frames. We don't compress in the camera because either you want lossless, which only gets 2:1 or lossy and then you need to be able to select a lot of variables. CPU compression and raw recording are more cost effective. -->>> This might explain some things with USB cameras, because unlike hard drives and Firewire, cameralink, they don't have as advanced circuits to off load from the cpu. I think I heard about some change to the USB spec (or USB-GO spec) that tried to fix this. |
As per the discussion over at the 10 bit thread this may help setting up your capture card or USB, and getting the manufactures latest drivers (chip and computer manufacturer) would help.
A edited support session for my sound card problems (my IRQ was fine, just a wonky sound card, replacement works beuatifully). If you know it allready, I'm sorry, but it will be usefull for many who don't: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You may want to try optimizing your system for audio. This helps free up resources. There are some very helpful tips at the following websites: http://www.musicxp.net/tuning_tips.htm www.pcaudiolabs.com It sounds like you are having an IRQ conflict and there are not enough resources available. What IRQ is the card on? To check: Go to : START --> RUN --> type "msinfo32" --> OK --> Hardware Resources --> IRQ's You want the card on its own IRQ. If it is sharing with the video card or ethernet or other devices it can cause these types of problems. You will have to free up additional resources or try swapping PCI slots in order to get the card on its own IRQ. To check IRQs: Go to : START --> RUN --> type "msinfo32" --> OK --> Hardware Resources --> IRQ's You want to have the card on its own IRQ. You can try to switch slots after completely uninstalling the card drivers to try and get it on a different IRQ. Slots 2 and 4 (from the top down) generally work the best. You need to completely uninstall before swapping slots, otherwise it will still hold on the old IRQ. Here are the instructions for a complete manual uninstall. ------------------------------------------------------------- |
Does anyone know anything about the Y Media sensor the SI-3170 uses???
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Wow, just did a Google, looks nice, check these stats:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0009/00...dia3mpcmos.asp Quote:
http://www.photonics.com/directory/X...QX/viewcop.htm There in San Diego, California by the looks of it, haven't found a website yet. Nite. |
Thought I'd post it here instead
Wayne,
I wasn't really getting anywhere with this in the other thread, so I thought I'd post it here to see if suggestions could be made. I want to thank you for being a patient guy, concerned about helping a beginner. It is a testiment to you. Thanks. Anyway, here is the contents of my previous post... Hey guys. I'm very elementary at this and I realize you guys aren't! So , if you have a chance, please let me know if this is good and proper. I'm ready to try this and was wondering if there is anything I'm missing here. Here are the links for the goods... Camera... http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=2490&search=1 Lens-to-body adapter for Canon EF lenses... http://www.birger.com/html/ef232_home.htm Hard drive for CameraLink connection... http://www.leutron.com/english/product/lvmpc_d.htm Now what am I missing? Something to view it with! Or, should I just capture to a laptop? What's missing here to make this work? What we need is a way, if I'm speculating correctly to import or capture this footage into a NLE. I have Final Cut, but this seems to be PC based technology. Anybody have suggestions? Best- Frank |
Unfortunately not many of them come here, so hopefully some of them will try and reply to you tommorrow.
Reading all the threads help. At the moment, the acquistion and controll programs are the big let down to doing real film production, but as I am a novice and haven't used that system I can't comment too well. But it has been discussed in the thread. There is also the problem that the present sodftware solutiuons are for Obins camera, they have yet to be verify for other cameras, or for non SI cameras, or made for Gigabit Ethernet, firewire and usb. It is still early stages yet, but if you are an experimenter than go ahead. If I find out that a simple interface profgram could pass commands/command line arguements to the existing software I will be most dissapionted myself. Thanks Wayne. |
Frank,
I don't think this camera you are posting would be a good candidate (I maybe wrong). I didn't see the rest of the links, but if you go the SLR way, please try to find an adapter thas has an optical path to shrink the projected image size to fit the sensor's one. If you can't find one and you can't make yourself one, just buy a normal C-mount lens for that sensor size. About hard drives, The Western Digital Raptor SATA disks have a transfer speed of 72 MB per second, so you probably won't need a RAID o setup. I'd suggest you to wait and see if Sumix makes an update of the camera Ben's using now. |
Juan, I think the sensor size is 2/3 cmos. That has to be close if not exact to what I have in my Canon 10D. Anyone know of software that could get this footage in to FCP for NLE. :)
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I agree with Juan about the Sumix camera, even SI will have newer cameras to compare with it soon.
About FCP, at least one of the guys has a FCP person involved to evntually get it there, but read through the 10-bit thread, there has been much discussion on workflow, NLE, and FCP there (some maybe in the other threads aswell, I forget much of it). Thanks Wayne. |
I agree with Juan about the Sumix 2/3" Altsens camera, even SI will have newer cameras to compare with it soon.
About FCP, at least one of the guys has a FCP person involved to evntually get it there, but read through the 10-bit thread, there has been much discussion on workflow, NLE, and FCP there (some maybe in the other threads aswell, I forget much of it). Thanks Wayne. |
So basically, when a 2/3 or inch sensor cmos camera comes out with firwire, we eliminate the need for a framegrabber all together. What I'm wondering is the adjustments on the camera, such as white balance or gain, will be handled via the software or the hradware. Check this out...http://www.adept.net.au/
They seem to have everything. |
Take a look at the 10bit thread, there is some stuff there about a alledged pricing of under $2000 for the JVC Altsens Box.
About the colour adjustment, it depends on how it is made. Ben apparently has no on camera control, Obin apparently does. Thanks Wayne. |
So Wayne, I've been out of the loop for a bit, just kind of watching the various threads and not bringing in much input do to that i'm not that tecnically inclined. At one point I was going to bring in my girlfriend's father (an electrical engineer) to see f he had any interest in helping us create what we want, but after hearing Summix and SI were so boasting about how their cameras were weeks away, then I put that on hold. And chose to get other stuff done with my craft creatively and then help you guys when I could.
So what's the status? did any of those guys ever come out with a camera that's 10 bit or 12 bit 1080p with 4:2:2 color at up to 60 fps? One with a global shutter instead of a rolling one? One at 66 or 72 Mhz? What's the scoop. Last I heard, there were several factions starting to be formed, some people going for the 720p cameras instead, and some going all pc instead of mac and some people are supposed to be writing stuff for and etc etc. etc. Can you give me the quick up to date as to where we all stand now. I assume that with all this going on, that at least one company will soon put out a camera much described like the one above for little $$$. Which is the most important fact to know. So fill me in when you have time please? ..... Thanks, Laurence |
Ohh the PIB factions are going strong, just leave them to it, and see what happens ;)
I've been wondering what happened to you, I was going to email. The status is that the Altasens is delayed, SI are very close to a 1/2 inch 3?? Mpixel camera in the comming weeks. So in the next month or so we expect to see the SI camera, and after that soon the firewireB Sumix ALtasens cameras (the new guy, Ben, has posted something in Obins thread a week or so ago). There will be firewire and faster, one chip and three chip Sumix cameras planned, but delivery is another thing. At the moment I can't remember, so reading all the threads is best. We have Bayer people (one with his own software), people who want comrpession, and people that want to do FPGA. They should all remember to examine their code to see if replacing any of the inner routines (particularly Wndows/C routines) with machine code would greatly speed up processing. We are talking small parts with great potentiual efficiency gains. Now for what everybody else doesn't know. I have a number of different confidential contacts about things, so I can't really say anything. But seperate camera, compression and mainboards improvements etc should be expected this year. Next, Fovceon is not on the horizon. In new interfaces SI is goping the Giga bit Ethernet path, and mainboards with dual Giga ethernet, and with Firewire b ports, are starting to turn up in the industry. Steve posted pictures of dual slope 12-bit shoots recently in the other thread, and Sumix is upgrading it's fillfactory sensor software to cram in more bits and use gamma curves (via lookup table). Obin has found fault exposure smearing with his chip. He has improved his control of the camera. Rob.S has bought a camera. Steve N has offered to upgrade them to the new 3Mp cameras The sumix USB FIllfactory chip offers less sensitivity and colour. Ben, with the camera, has improved control of it. Somebody looked at a test chart of the 2.3Mp SI they thought it had between 4-5 stop range, Obin dissagreed. I think that if they adjust it a bit more it could be more than that, though Oblin's images don't appear to be too much more than that. Cameras maybe soon, but there is nothing inbetween them, so what were you going to ask your Girlfreinds father help with? Thanks Wayne. |
I was gonna have him help me put together a camera for us, but I have delayed with the news that what we will basically be creating is right around the corner for about 3 k.
Man, 4-5 stops just isn't enough. Need more for film look. I imagine the new SI and Summix cameras will top that greatly. Interesting thread about the dvx-100 mod. Looks like he's getting as many as 10 stops out of it and just over 720 lines. Maybe he could do a re-wire of the XL-2 and get something really great. But I'm interested in the real deal. Personally, I was a bit surprised to see everyone slapping money down on these current cameras. Not good enough yet, and stuff is right around the corner. I've been reading all along, but got a bit tired of everyone kind of taking their own directions (a bit impatient I think). Plus, there's not a lot I can contribute at this point, unless someone assigns me some homework. So what did you mean by the stuff you can reveal source wise? Cameras? Computers? That Firewire B sounds pretty good being that I just bought a brand new Mac G5 with FCP HD. So, How's things? |
Things are a bit better, healthwise things are picking up.
10 stops, yes, if you don't rely on the auto controls you can get much more out of the Pana. I keep asking questions about the altasens and how to read the specs of sensors, but get no answers. So I can't really tell you how much better they get, but I don't expect any better then CCD cameras anyway. Gigabyte sent me stuff on their new range of MB with firewire B. Not usefull for us b8ut a good indicator of where the market is headed. There will be dual Gigabit E ITX like boards comming to. The distractions are good and bad We need to support the Rob's to see real software action that jell's everything together, otherwise we can split into numerouse camps without the software to make it work properly. Eventually the softweare can support more cameras and interfaces, but thats eventually. We can't expect everything now, because it simply is not there yet. I'm not up to assigning some homework at thge moment either, but recently I asked for voluteers to research stuff in Obin's thread, but nobody came forward. When it comes time to do it now, they will need to do it anyway, but because there won't be time they probably won't be able to do it good enough to get the best equipment. That's the problem with now people, they need future people to do the ground work for them to jump into. But if they didn't do something 90% of the people would leave through lack of interest. Thanks Wayne. |
My position (having "purchased" a camera) is that I want to let Sumix (and whoever else is interested) know what my needs are before they come out with the next-generation camera. Otherwise, the cameras "around the corner" won't do you much good, because the software will be insufficient, the interface won't be suited to what we're doing, whatever.
For example, Steve at SI has made it clear that the Altasens model they have coming out will be CameraLink-only at first (not Gigabit Ethernet, which will come later). So good luck with that on your new G5. ;) My feeling is that if you're going to sit back and wait for the good stuff just around the corner, your wait will be never ending, because there's always better stuff around the corner. Also, unlike consumer camera manufacturers, the companies we're dealing with (SI, Sumix) seem fine with letting us "trade up" for a price as new models come out. So if you buy now, you won't necessarily have to buy a whole new camera when the next-gen comes out... - ben |
Ya, I wasn't trying to bust on anyone in particular. But let's face it's not the easiest to get agreeance throughout. What I mean by not buying now doesn't neccessarily mean I'm waiting for something that will go directly into the G5. As long as the files are easily transferable. If they're not, well, there's not much I can do about it other than keep reiderating I in particular have a Mac and need something for Mac. I'm willing to get a mini-PC for capture and all that as long as I know it's gonna work and work right. I don't want to spend forever trying to get my camera I bought now to actually work the way I want it to. I'm not a tech-head like a lot of these guys. My stuff is gonna have to be plug and play, or I can't afford it. The last movie I shot took forever (over 4 years to complete through editing) due to the lack of user friendly equipment. Hell, if I'm gonna do that again, I might as well just sit back and write scripts for 3 years until a much more user friendly camera/capture interface comes out and then shoot/edit my next feature in the 4th year. If you can afford/ are able to get the current stuff to work well, then go for it. Unfortunately, I can't. Man, that's why I bought a Mac. I've only had it for 1 month and already realize why PCs have been labeled as standing for "Piece of Crap."
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Well I'm glad to hear it, people talked to them before and they showed virtually no interest in doing better software then, that is why the Rob's are doing it.
Don't let it put you off buying new cameras though, the software canbe added latter at anytime, until then you are an experimenter though, as long as it is coming in some reasonable time. I do think, businesswise, it was odd that the capture card/software businesses did not want to do this themselves, it would be far easier and cheaper for their capture realtime experienced programmers to quickly add an interface for us, we have enough people here to test/prototype the interface for them. It's been up to us to show the way in this fledgeling relationship, until there is enough people for them to take notice of. Sensible people wait for sufficient stuff around the corner, get it and go on, because that is all they need, not all these 1/2inch 720p wonders with moderate performance. Harsh, but true, but why complian that is all we have at the moment. The present cameras are just not enough, if we hacked a JVC GRDV3000 (that would be difficult), we could probably get within coo-ee, of them. If the Altasens are as good as they say they are, for many they will be more than sufficent. Until then most of us might aswell hangoff to see what is coming around the corner before the altasens release, it is the only sensible thing toi do, if you are going to get an Altasens straight off the bat. Still if Rob's software is only a few months, and your not an experimenter, it is probably better holding off until then. |
Quote:
The ObscuraConvert app will be released under the GPL (as free/open-source) so that anyone can add support for whatever file formats they like. It will also be cross-platform. |
Bless you Rob!!!!!!
That's really great news. People like you are why there's still hope for guys like me. |
Quote:
Keep in mind that while "Convert" will be GPL'd, I will be keeping the "Capture" app (the camera's "firmware") closed-source for now. I've put a lot of effort into it and hope to sell it (for a reasonable price, of course) to people who are building cameras. |
Gotchya,
Sounds good! |
For example, Steve at SI has made it clear that the Altasens model they have coming out will be CameraLink-only at first (not Gigabit Ethernet, which will come later). So good luck with that on your new G5. ;)
EPIX offers a CameraLink to Gigabit Ethernet adaptor. Has anyone looked at this? As far as I can tell (particularly for Mac owners) this would probably be a cheaper way to go than buying a FrameGrabber card. |
Quote:
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<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : OK, I have found out more about the wireless version of USB, which maybe the USB3 I saw in the article at the register (or the enquirer) sometime ago.
It is meant to go beyond 400Mb/s (b for bit). There is some movement in the wideband comms sector, but unfortunately I closed the other article and haven't got a link here. http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1530522,00.asp http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1530755,00.asp http://www.uwbforum.org/membership/membership.asp Ahh here we are, and even firewire wireless demonstration (after how many years??) http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1528297,00.asp Periphials by years end. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1634014,00.asp Other highspeed (540Mbs IEEE 802.11n) wireless stuff: http://www.convergedigest.com/WiFi/w...e.asp?ID=11995 Well, looks like you can wireless a few USB/Firewire cameras before we know it. -->>> <<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : Just did another swing pass the tape issue, no luck yet expensive for the sort of rates we want. But found this reference for 150 Terabytes of video for Lord of the Rings (how much of the budget did they blow on that??, and was that at only 2Mp or 8??)). That is why I wanted to look at tape so you could backup a couple of Terabyte of storage cheaply (compared to buying X number of drives) (The articles still say that tape is half the cost per mb (and 30 year shelf life), but I think that is compared to expensive server disk setuips rather tthan cheaper consumer drives). http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1012597,00.asp -->>> |
<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : I forgot to mention, if anybody has cameras they can post I will be discussing it on the Technical thread.
-->>> |
Wow, that wireless stuff would be wonderful!!! Hope it all gets up and running soon.
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Thanks Laurence, it starts arriving at the end of the year, but when it will be supported for us is another thing (very short range I think as well).
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<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Scott : I believe that Joshua is planning to build a Windows PC just for the camera itself, and then transfer the files to the Mac, running the Convert app (which will hopefully be cross-platform by that time). -->>>
That was my plan, yep. |
Smallest Fanelss ITX PSU (near PC-card sized)
Two updates:
Smallest ITX PSU, and very thin version, 3Ghz P4 support, and 95% efficency. There is a thin stick like model too. http://www.digit-life.com/news.html?107750 Quote:
http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20...rewire-06.html |
Auto url embeedder script.
Rob,
On other sites, simular to this, I have seen urls automatically converted into embedded links when posted, without having to use . They seem to just look for www or http (which is most of them). Could we please have something like that? Thanks Wayne. |
Gigabit
Some interesting news on the gigabit side. I just came back from a seminar on our gigabit interface. Some good stuff:
1 - 800Mb/sec continuous on a dedicated wire is definite. Some customers are above 900Mb/sec. CPU utilization is almost zero. 2- Using a crappy Bayer algorithm and the SI-3300, 1920x1080, 12 bit, 24fps was transmitted, received and *displayed* in real time. 20-30% CPU utilization. If we implement the every other frame dropping at the camera level, this might be nice for the Altasens too. It would seem this leaves headroom for some basic compression. 3 - The dedicated driver is required for these speeds but only works with Intel Pro1000 interfaces. There is a filter driver that runs on top of a generic network card driver that will do 600-800Mb/sec continuous with somewhat more CPU overhead. With this driver you can have other stuff on the network (not a dedicated port) as long as it is quiet during video. 4 - Data packing is done in hardware - two pixels of 12 bit data take 3 bytes, not 4. This is mostly interesting because I think it is easier to find an embedded motherboard with GigE than to try to package a motherboard with a PCI frame grabber. |
right!!!
Thanks for the news. |
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