Unlike some countries, we have had rising stadards over here, that appears to have slacken off. One network was not even accepting anything that was not on a Beta format. 3CCD is the minium and anything prosumer was looked down upon. But in the last year or so things have eased and even neworks are using the little crappy buggers.

The truth is, if you want to make cinema you can use a 16mm film camera, you don't need anything else! But why do people go for 35mm, or digital, because it either looks better, or offers some other advantage to them. The same is for doco's, you can use a crappy SD 3CCD'er that needs lots of NLE colour/lighting work to make it look somewhat natural, or you can get a better camera and make your stuff look good. That is REALITY, and nobody should expect Doco's to settle for third best.

Still more stuppidfying, is the fact that I did two paragraphs, for two issues, as to why the camera and sensors inquestion where not the best, one for range, and one for low light.

BTW Wayne I can make a "crappy 3ccder" look just as good as your BETA SP rig or your DVCPRO50 rig..it's all in how you light your subject...not to say that the dynamic range from a really CHEAPO camera is not worse then a $35,000 dvcpro50 rig..but if you light FOR your camera you can get the SAME image...really ...trust me....it's what I do day in and day out

BTW on a note of something that everyone can use:

SheerVideo has told me that the "conversion" from RGB-->YUV is something that is built into the codec..so this is a non-issue now as well...

"was not on a Beta format" that is a VERY aging format!
how can you say:
"we have had rising stadards over here"

In case you didn't realise I said Beta (generic) that includes all beta formats, and if you think a miniDV camera has as much detail or range as a good dvcpro50 (or digital Beta) you must need my glasses. If you followed the story you would realise that we had a problem with rising standards here, upto a year or so ago, now it is in reverse. But I am also worried (which I admit I did not put in there) that this trend will start again when the 3 chip Sony PD-190 comes out. As usual I notice you have avoided all my correct overriding arguments, because you can't argue against them. I don't know why, because you are making enough of a hash out of the avoidance arguments you are using.

I didn't mention anything about sheer video?????

Okay: I've edited out some stuff you guys where throwing around.
Let's keep it civil. It is easy to mis-understand one-another on
such a place as a forum and people will have very different stand
points on things that they might defend a bit too much.

Obin: since you are designing your own camera and you want it
to be for only cinema work that is fine. Others might want to use
it for other work as well (like documentary) so you might want to
take that into account. If you don't, that's fine as well, since it is
your own camera platform. However, do not put other people
down because they might want to do this.

Wayne: Obin can do whatever he wants in the end with his own
platform. That's okay. If he doesn't wants to use it for DOC work
that's fine. When I spoke to Rob S. it looks like we do want to
make an (a more?) open platform (that can be used for shooting
different kinds of footage) , but the main priority is to get a
complete working system first. As you can imagine.

Since this is a technical discussion do not reply with more thoughts
about what kind of work it should do. For Obin's camera that is up
to him and for the Rob's <g> platform that can be discussed in the
other thread.

Thank you for your understanding and let's keep it civil people!

Yes, I agree whole heartedly, that's my piont he can do that with his platform and for now we are also trying to start with a cinema system. Except I started this thread as a general technical thread, and it is a technical issue aswell. So I hope I'm free to find low light alternatives, and cheaper alternatives, suitable for a wider range of work (if I knew any).

I however have one thing to say: Obin, please, leave me alone, as I have been doing for you in the other thread.


Thanks

Wayne.

Rob S, here is an interesting case style for a handheld 720p.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Camcorders.htm

Would certainly show JVC up if somebody introduced a simular 720p camera with a hard disk that is 20 times that capacity and a fraction of that ones $399-$500 price.

Now only if they could do that?

What do you think Rob?

Thanks

Wayne.

Thanks Wayne! Looks interesting.
I think it's possible, but to really compete with someone like JVC would require a lot of resources.

Wayne, since you're worried about low-light with the Altasens, know that the 3560 chip, when boosted to +18db, will be at ISO 1600.

ISO 1600 should be plenty enough for everybody.

Rob, I suppose I'm not really talking about competing with JVC, just a show pony to show them up. I don't expect multiple 100K sales or anything like that.

Jason thanks, but what S/N at that db (I am still not clear on that yet, will have to contact Altasens)? I expect it to do the job as well as the previouse JY-DV500.

supposedly Altasens is bragging that the 3560 can do up to 100db maximum, 72db typical. I'm not sure what the S/N ratio is at +18db gain.

Jason thanks, these are much more than the figures I have read previously, and right in my ball park of what I am after (more than the GY-DV5000). Now if I can compress the bright light contrast range down, I should be able to pickup some brilliant images, lowlight and bright local sunlight.

The problem was that I had read some funny figures around 54-60db for this chip, gain amplifies SN floor, so that meant 18db gain would have given me something like 36db+ SN, which is on average the upper 6 bits of a 8 bit pixel. But if it is upto 100db that is around 82db, enough for nearly 14-bits (which in 12-bit mode is perfect).

Yes, good find Rob, this is the first laptoip good enough to add to my links database of the project. It is saying older laptop drives are using a 100Mbit/s interface, that would explain why so many are so slow, and this one uses 100MB/s interface, perfect for us. For those who haven't read it, it also says that sata will be the new laptop interface.

This is the first laptop drive good enough to I have added to my project boomark.

Forgot to mention, for those who want to use big processors. Digitlife, has news on the Thermaltake BigWater thermal cooler solution (17-21db).

http://www.digit-life.com/news.html?108547#108547

and sony is producing OEL's finally (lost the link, but here's a product announcement).

http://www.digit-life.com/news.html?108449#108449

Here's a link:
http://www.brighthand.com/article/So..._OLED_Displays

Here are those smallest mini-itx fanless PSU's, and the company has some other mini-itx stuff, including P4 boards, very small box pc, wrap around pc, ATA to compact flash convertor. Maybe all a bit slow at the moment but worth keeping an eye on. :

http://www.mini-box.com/

http://www.travla.com/
More Car PC stuff, p4 m-itx PSU, and compact flash adaptor.

http://www.morex.com.tw/mainpage2003.htm
More of the same.

Build your own Super Tint Home Server:
http://www.extremetech.com/print_art...=133886,00.asp

VIA also announced the new processor naming scheme, and I found information on the new post 2Ghz low powered processor:

http://www.via.com.tw/en/resources/p...sor_naming.jsp
http://www.via.com.tw/en/resources/p...r040518epf.jsp


Rob, yes that's the one, have you read their upcoming technology articles, they ussually have some nifty stuff.

I also have to piont out that I expect multimedia Arms and Xscale machines to hit 1Ghz next year (as the highest speed possible is beyond that for a while now), as they are Windows .net, it might make an interesting platform (Windows .net also adopted the Tron OS task switching technology that should help in speed compared to normal).

Marginly related to us, for those who are interested:

Disk based, high quality compression: Interesting that the new Ikegami Editcam HD Memory card/disk, camerea uses 4:1-20:1 Avid's DNxHD codec compression. (also new wireless, and slow motion HD anouncments).
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22670&issue=5

For those into slow motion capture
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22090&issue=1
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22091&issue=1
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22336&issue=3

Multiproicessing pci-x encoding card:
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22647&issue=4

Avid HD architechture
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22204&issue=2
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22559&issue=5

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini :
...
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22670&issue=5

For those into slow motion capture
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=22090&issue=1
...
wayne,
i was on the ibc. that ikegami camera (first photo/link) is just a mockup. the guys are maybe working on this in labs, but not on the show. there were no possibility to do anything with that camera, exept to say how nice it looks. it's just a box with lenses, but not working model at all.

second link (with bandpro camera) is a different story. that camera works!and works marvelous! i saw the footage and it looks unbelivable. 1000 fps. this is THE camera. cannot say about the price for it, but i know that in germany is possible to rent it approx for 2500 euro (about 2800 us$) for a day!
but for those who need this - it's a must. quiet, fast, uses film pl mount lenses
cmos is little smaller than 35mm frame, but you really cannot see that. very interesting.

filip

There is also another 2MP 4:3 one based on a custom Fillfactory chip (who recently got bought out by Cypress Semiconductor) called the Phantom. Capable of doing 1000 fps, at 2MP. (needs to be converted to 1080, but should look spectacular anyway).

http://www.visiblesolutions.com/phantomv9.html

Were you talking about the editcam3, it is allready price listing (TBA) on the internet, so maybe it is not too far away? It is just a curiosity for us as a competitor anyway, like Kinneta.

Close
 

This is curiouse, a new Nikon still camera that will do 5fps @ 12.4MPixel RAW, but 21FPS as Jpegs, $3900 Jan 2005. I wonder how fast it would go at quarter the res? I have an article around here predicting that digital still cameras will do 1.3MP video by 2006, it looks like they might be able to do that a lot sooner (but whould anybody dare, 21fps, is conviently not 24fps).

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...16_124853.html

I'll have to look for more details latter.


Thanks

Wayne.

That Phantom camera costs around 100K with 4 GB of memory, don't need to tell you how much it goes with a capture system ,right?

Good, just illustrates what the competition is doing (and that it would cost us 10-20K, if add up the parts, to do the same).

<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin :
second link (with bandpro camera) is a different story. that camera works!and works marvelous! i saw the footage and it looks unbelivable. 1000 fps. this is THE camera. cannot say about the price for it, but i know that in germany is possible to rent it approx for 2500 euro (about 2800 us$) for a day!
but for those who need this - it's a must. quiet, fast, uses film pl mount lenses
cmos is little smaller than 35mm frame, but you really cannot see that. very interesting.

filip -->>>

I saw an ad for that camera and it costs $160,000.00.
I saw some of the footage at NAB, and it did look
*excellent*. They even had it hooked up and running, but to do
high speed they had a 575W HMI about 6 inches from the object
that was wrapped with foil. Now that's bright!

So anyone know a good way to win the lottery ;) ?

You could allways pay for it by making a hit movie like Starwars, it's more likely than winning the lottery ;)

I've been advised of this impressive general Indie HD site:

http://www.hdforindies.com/

Notice the 1.8terabyte Raid system for $3295. Too, much for the present cameras, but impressive for some people.

Also note the costings analysis of his proposed HD editing system solutions.

He mention something called "SoftRAID formatting software" and says you will need it. Must be some software raid system that might be worth studying.

Wayne,
To do the same as the Phantom you would need just over 10,000 just for the FG.
I guess a complete system for such a thing would cost a minimum starting from 30,000 (but it´s going to be a bulky one)

OK, I don't want to argue, I should not have said "make it the same" but making a cheap slow motion camera (upto what a good PCI-X camerlink card system will take. I think it can (eventually, in a year or two after we have suceeded with the current project and prices drop a bit), but without figures infront of me I should not have said that. So sorry for that.

No, really don't take it personal.
It is just a high sppeed sensor outputs so much data that for anything above 1280x720 and 500 or more frames you can't use a normal FG on a Pc, and that kind of FG cost around 10k.Just that ;)

Thanks Jaun,

I just realised, my original comment with costing, about doing that slow motion after we finished the main project (i.e. one or two years), must have been deleted during pre-editing. I was wondering what was going on, sorry.

Have found out the Fillfactory slow motion sensor is $800, I thought it was a lot more. Jaun, out of curiosity, how much would you say that a 250fps slow motion format 1MP 720p system would be (should be enough for 4 drive raid? If somebody made the camera for $2-3K, and used a PCIX Frame Grabber card of at least 266MB/s? I view slow motion as very specialist, short shots that could be buffered in memory and sent out to disk after. Is there any need beyond that in real world cinema applications?

P.S. When I say I don't want to argue, I wasn't really being offended or annoyed, just not wanting to get side tracked into a big debate.

Thanks

Wayne.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Netgear gigabit pcmcia network card -->>>

Rob ... did you get my most recent e-mail about the SourceForge project?

Yes I sure did and I'm walking through our e-mail conversation
to see which things we where talking about earlier. Sorry to not
get back to you earlier (as promised). I will be gone from friday
morning till somewhere sunday again but will try to get it done
by somewhere thursday (my time) at the latest.

Now if I could just quit my day job.... <g>

I hear you! I've been thinking about that one myself :-)

Don't know really but let suppose this:
you have 1280x720 at 10 bits and 250 fps.

If it is not Bitpacked (so it is at 16 bit) it gives:

439.45 MBytes/s

if it is bitpacked it is:

274.65 MBytes/s

So first if you wanna record direct to disk, you'll need a PCI-X 133 MHZ FG (= expensive) and enough disks to support that bandwith.(I think at least 20 if 2.5 inch would be ok).Also another controller for those disks which needs to be also PCI-X 133 MHZ.
So you need a motherboard with support for two independent PCI-X 133MHz buses.
Other solution would be using a FG with embedded RAID controller (again $$$$$).


Second option would be using a FG with processing capabilities able to process that amount of data and a disk controller for PCI-X 66MHZ.
So less disks to record but again an expensive FG.

Hope this helps...

Lets say we go for packed 8 bit mode (just to fit into a cheaper 266MB/s 64bit or 66Mhz PCI-? card, and 4-8 3.5inch drive Main board raid canbe used). Sorry, I thought you were going to give realistic, unpadded, figures (this is when I am getting annoyed). See what I mean, it is a specialist camera not really requiring the best portability (even just transposrtable), (though using 20 2.5 inch drives over 4-8 3.5inch drives, you don't really save money, space, or power).

Well, talking a bit down the track (after the normal motion camera project is handled, and prices of drives, sensors and memory drop, and processing power increases (I am not PC limited here, I have something of much higher in performance in mind, lower powered and cheaper etc), the project could be made to support slow motion in this way (apart from a seperate slow motion camera):

Cheap option:
Normal camera + high speed sensor with 200fps+ 720p 8-bit capable FG 66Mhz or 64-bits (or cheaper 120fps 720p Altasens based system), biggest memory to buffer short sequences for film which are then saved.

Performance configuration:
As above, but with an extra module to attach extra raid drives for long slow motion sequences.

No bayer filtering/compression at these speeds, done in post.

(Processing requirements is up in the air for the moment, as I don't know what low powred dual core, dual processing systems they are planning, but a lot more advanced then now. Using the fastest low poprocessor may not be a problem, power wise, provided it has modern speed/power saving features. So during normal filming the power consumption canbe dropped and the attached/external drive module disconnected).

Only an idea!

So what do you think Jaun?

First my name is J u a n, the same as John.So if it is easier for you just call me John ;) (kidding)

Well the 20 disks are for over 400 MBytes/s, you don't need that for 280 Mbytes/s.
But you are right, I guess 8 Raptors with an Intel RAID card can get that (RAID 0)

I've never talked about portability, did I?

I don't understand what you call "packed 8 bit",sorry.
If you mean getting 8 bit directly from the camera that is ok for me, but if you are talking about any kind of packing (as putting two 12 bit pixels together inside three bytes or 24 bits) that is a different thing cause then again you would need an expensive card which supports the packing.

Sorry, but I'm not understanding what you are trying to say.
So I think it's up to you to define the needs for a high speed system cause I can't help.

Slow-motion at those frame-rates is a pretty specialized field. Why don't you just rent that slow-motion digital camera from Band-Pro (or someone else who has it)? Seems like you're going to be spending a lot of money and hassle for a dubious amount of gain.

High Speed
 

I don't know how VGA would up-sample to HD, but we have a 640x480, 250fps 8/10 bit camera with global shutter and 9.9 micron pixels. The data rate is 80Mpix/sec so even at 160Mpix (unpacked) that isn't too scary. This will be supported on GigE in a bit (or when a customer demands it) which will include 2 pixels in 3 bytes. The max GigE rate is 100MB/sec which would be about 200fps. But, because of the packing, you are talking 100MB/sec to disk - maybe on a 32 bit split backplane or simple 64 bit system (2 SATA drives?). It is cheap (a relative word for sure) at $2495 USD - single piece without the DVInfo discount. Here is a funky sample:

http://siliconimaging.com/Samples/SI...0eye%20seq.avi

steve: that is very cool!

Sorry Juan, that is one of my weaknesses, is name memory (and advanced mathematics, which helps me simplify designs).

I assumed it was portability/battery life, because that is one of the main reasons people have been using the 2.5inch disks, and their has been people acting like it is going to easily fit into a portable camera before.

With the packed 8-bits, having an unclear head, I hedged my bets. Being reasonably sure you can transfers 8 bits at a time unpacked, I wasn't sure there wasn't a scheme that required 8 bits to be packed into 16-bits, so I just covered all basis. I know we can get away with 8 bits, so I wasn't bothering with 10 or 12 bits.

The rest of your post I will have to get back too (I have just written these two posts). I am just trying to hit performance objectives in the ideas for cost, fps, and size. By minimising the data rate (or buffering), and making it modular with a extra drive module, one camera system can do it all. Eventually at a cheaper price than now.