Holographic Imaging? at DVinfo.net

Sam Jankis · June 29th, 2006, 09:00 PM

I heard that Zacuto is developing an adapter that uses holographic imaging. It's going to cost a few grand, but will have zero to 1/2 stop light loss and the resolution will be almost unchanged.

Anyone have any ideas on how this would work? Sound like BS?

Ben Winter · June 29th, 2006, 09:03 PM

I have a holographic diffuser on order so we'll see how well they work.

Sam Jankis · June 30th, 2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Winter

I have a holographic diffuser on order so we'll see how well they work.

Could you explain how this works?
The only holograms I've seen look like what's on a credit card.

Donnie Wagner · June 30th, 2006, 08:28 AM

If Ben is getting the POC holographic diffuser (also sold by edmunds http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...=2265&search=1) then there is no magic. They polycarbonate or acrylic sheets that are embossed with a texture to create the diffusing features. The word "holographic" comes from the process by which they mask and etch the tool that embosses the plastic films. The one nice thing about the POC diffusers is they seem to have the sharpest "in focus" capabilities along with the best "bokeh". Their downfall is grain.

http://www.putfile.com/donniewagner2
I uploaded a microscope picture of the POC20 and a short movie shot using it in the letus35

As for the new adapter, I dont know what they may mean by holographic.

Francois Poitras · June 30th, 2006, 09:56 AM

I think many 35mm focussing screens are made using holographic diffusers on plastic substrates (+ some coatings).

I have tested the POC10, POC20 and POC30 in a vibrating adapter, and could not get rid of the grain to my satisfaction. It’s too bad, because as Donnie says, sharpness and bokeh are really good.

My guess is that these diffusers could work really well in a spinning adapter, because of faster movement.

Sam Jankis · June 30th, 2006, 07:40 PM

Thanks for the explanation. We'll see this fall what Zacuto's solution is.

Sam Jankis · September 29th, 2006, 12:25 PM

The latest word is that these adapters will be paired to only work with a particular series of Zeiss lenses. Shallow DOF is not achieved with a focusing screen... somehow it is entirely optical.

Mike Oveson · September 29th, 2006, 02:14 PM

Sounds very intriguing, because as far as I know it's not possible to do this optically. You can certainly film the aerial image projected by a lens, but you don't get any of the depth of field properties that come with that lens. It would be a major breakthrough if it could be done without any sort of focusing screen or groundglass, as issues of grain and lightloss would be forever done away with. I hope it can be done, that would be awesome.

Alex Chong · September 29th, 2006, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Jankis

The latest word is that these adapters will be paired to only work with a particular series of Zeiss lenses. Shallow DOF is not achieved with a focusing screen... somehow it is entirely optical.

Not sure what you mean. All adaptors work based on optic. All focusing screens get the image projected on them via 35mm lens or any lens available in the market. DOF is part and parcel of projecting an image on a focusing screen. You get it when some are get in focus and some area get out of focus. Am I wrong?

Sam Jankis · September 29th, 2006, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Chong

Not sure what you mean. All adaptors work based on optic. All focusing screens get the image projected on them via 35mm lens or any lens available in the market. DOF is part and parcel of projecting an image on a focusing screen. You get it when some are get in focus and some area get out of focus. Am I wrong?

I don't know the details... but there is no focusing screen.
I have no idea how it works. Mirrors and lenses only... I guess. Maybe some magic, too?
I'm just passing along the word.

Alex Chong · September 29th, 2006, 11:34 PM

Not to rain on their parade, I think it may be a dead end with this lazer holographic imaging thingy. If it works, great! love to see footage and picture of the adaptor.

RED is using same principle as mini35 except they are using CMOS in place of the focusing screen. Its simpler because they don't have to vibrate the CMOS sensor. But getting all the info from CMOS and translate and transfer to a recording device like a HDD or DV tape is the hard part. But they are getting close to it. My point is that it takes a billionaire to do this and he still hasn't reach production stage yet. Hmmmm..

Sam Jankis · September 30th, 2006, 08:24 AM

I believe you're confusing other people's replies with what I've posted.

And I doubt the holography purportedly used in the upcoming Zacuto adapter will include the laser-printed foil things you buy at the mall. I figure Zacuto's use of the term is restricted to "the reconstruction of a virtual image."

Alex Chong · September 30th, 2006, 09:23 AM

Sorry, can get confusing sometimes reading this thread. Am still comfused a little.

Justine Haupt · October 2nd, 2006, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Chong

Not sure what you mean. All adaptors work based on optic. All focusing screens get the image projected on them via 35mm lens or any lens available in the market. DOF is part and parcel of projecting an image on a focusing screen. You get it when some are get in focus and some area get out of focus. Am I wrong?

He means getting the image from the lens to the sensor without ever having to touch a ground glass/focusing screen. "Purely optical" implies that the light is going from the lens to the sensor using only lenses or some other non diffusing optical component.

So in theory light loss would be insignificant, there would be nothing to cause grain or (presumably) distortion of any kind, bokeh would be limited only by the prime lens' optics, and sharpness would be limited only by the resolution of the camera's sensors.

The Holy Grail of DOF adapters, basically.

Jim Lafferty · October 2nd, 2006, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Chong

RED is using same principle as mini35 except they are using CMOS in place of the focusing screen... My point is that it takes a billionaire to do this and he still hasn't reach production stage yet. Hmmmm..

It doesn't take a billionare -- you can do the same thing with any video camera and a combination of the right tools, a lot of patience, and nerves of steel. All you'd need to do is mount a manual lens at flange distance from the CCD, and secure the lens mount to the video camera.

There is the guy who already did it with his HDV Sony camera a while back...

Incidentally, I'd be skeptical of "holographic" or "aerial" imagery. I don't think they're capable of achieving the same effect, but I could be wrong.

June 29th, 2006, 09:00 PM	#1
Sam Jankis Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Pete, FL Posts: 223	Holographic Imaging? I heard that Zacuto is developing an adapter that uses holographic imaging. It's going to cost a few grand, but will have zero to 1/2 stop light loss and the resolution will be almost unchanged. Anyone have any ideas on how this would work? Sound like BS?

June 29th, 2006, 09:03 PM	#2
Ben Winter Trustee Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 1,675 Images: 1	I have a holographic diffuser on order so we'll see how well they work. __________________ BenWinter.com

June 30th, 2006, 09:56 AM	#5
Francois Poitras Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Québec (Canada) Posts: 133	I think many 35mm focussing screens are made using holographic diffusers on plastic substrates (+ some coatings). I have tested the POC10, POC20 and POC30 in a vibrating adapter, and could not get rid of the grain to my satisfaction. It’s too bad, because as Donnie says, sharpness and bokeh are really good. My guess is that these diffusers could work really well in a spinning adapter, because of faster movement. __________________ François

June 30th, 2006, 08:28 AM	#4
Donnie Wagner Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 135	If Ben is getting the POC holographic diffuser (also sold by edmunds http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlineca...=2265&search=1) then there is no magic. They polycarbonate or acrylic sheets that are embossed with a texture to create the diffusing features. The word "holographic" comes from the process by which they mask and etch the tool that embosses the plastic films. The one nice thing about the POC diffusers is they seem to have the sharpest "in focus" capabilities along with the best "bokeh". Their downfall is grain. http://www.putfile.com/donniewagner2 I uploaded a microscope picture of the POC20 and a short movie shot using it in the letus35 As for the new adapter, I dont know what they may mean by holographic.

June 30th, 2006, 07:40 PM	#6
Sam Jankis Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Pete, FL Posts: 223	Thanks for the explanation. We'll see this fall what Zacuto's solution is.

September 29th, 2006, 12:25 PM	#7
Sam Jankis Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Pete, FL Posts: 223	The latest word is that these adapters will be paired to only work with a particular series of Zeiss lenses. Shallow DOF is not achieved with a focusing screen... somehow it is entirely optical.

September 29th, 2006, 02:14 PM	#8
Mike Oveson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ogden, UT Posts: 349	Sounds very intriguing, because as far as I know it's not possible to do this optically. You can certainly film the aerial image projected by a lens, but you don't get any of the depth of field properties that come with that lens. It would be a major breakthrough if it could be done without any sort of focusing screen or groundglass, as issues of grain and lightloss would be forever done away with. I hope it can be done, that would be awesome.

September 29th, 2006, 11:34 PM	#11
Alex Chong Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Brunei Posts: 140	Not to rain on their parade, I think it may be a dead end with this lazer holographic imaging thingy. If it works, great! love to see footage and picture of the adaptor. RED is using same principle as mini35 except they are using CMOS in place of the focusing screen. Its simpler because they don't have to vibrate the CMOS sensor. But getting all the info from CMOS and translate and transfer to a recording device like a HDD or DV tape is the hard part. But they are getting close to it. My point is that it takes a billionaire to do this and he still hasn't reach production stage yet. Hmmmm..

September 30th, 2006, 08:24 AM	#12
Sam Jankis Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Pete, FL Posts: 223	I believe you're confusing other people's replies with what I've posted. And I doubt the holography purportedly used in the upcoming Zacuto adapter will include the laser-printed foil things you buy at the mall. I figure Zacuto's use of the term is restricted to "the reconstruction of a virtual image."

September 30th, 2006, 09:23 AM	#13
Alex Chong Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Brunei Posts: 140	Sorry, can get confusing sometimes reading this thread. Am still comfused a little.