Fantastic! Let me know if someone else buys two and I will get another to go with the new diffuser! ;-)

Well Phil, I'm planning to buy one more Brevis, soon after I receive my Brevis from Dennis =) Actually I was waiting for your review, but cant wait any longer, so I just ordered Brevis myself couple days ago=)

I totally orderd one back when this thread was on page three. I didn't want to wait either. :-D

What if my shootout says the Brevis is pile of poo? Joking, all three are superb.

I am doing it all now. I have published the start of it at www.philipbloom.net click on 35mm shootout. Keep checking back I will be adding to this every as soon as i get each section written


Phil

I am progressing with part two but I am too knackered to finish it tonight, my typos are getting worse and worse. I will carry on tomorrow. I hope it is useful so far. I am trying to make it as relevent and as personal to my experiences as possible.


Phil

So far so good Phil (I'll post up an edge-to-edge sharpness how-to at the cinevate forum). Just one correction. The Cinevate=Dennis comment is actually not correct...3 more have been added in the last six weeks or so. That's not counting Mike the CNC guy who does all our CAD and CNC work these days. I could still do it myself but we'd need to slow down the earth's rotation to make a day about 96 hours or so :-)

Thanks Phil!!
And yeah.. please someone clarify about the edge-to-edge sharpness issue with the Brevis... I was a little bit shocked/worried when I read that part! *sigh*
It was one of the main reasons I was going for the Cinevate/Brevis...
Thx!

Thanks Dennis, The edge to edge problems I had were really minor and I didnt actually notice it. It was Wayne who noticed it. I will definately go to your forum and see how I can eliminate it entirely!

Thank you very much Phil, lovely article for a surprisingly nice sunny day in UK :D.

I don't mind about the professional look of the product, more important is the quality of result and other practical option.

So far:
*Setup-time: Brevis > M2 > SGPro (even Wayne took 15 minutes.. wow!)
*Picture quality in term of edge-to-edge-sharpness: SGPro > Brevis > M2

Look forward to your next chapter of review.

Thanksss :D.

Hi Ing

Glad you are liking it so far. I would say setup time for the m2 and sgpro would be much the same if wayne wasn't there so I wouldn't put the m2 ahead of it there.

Edge to edge is very subjective. All three are capable of edge to edge, just on that day in those conditions I was unable to get perfect edge edge on the m2 and brevis, but both of these are capable of it. With the M2 you just need to make sure you set it up in controlled conditions with a large monitor to make sure.

Also the SGPro does look professional, just not as much as the other two!

Considering that Wayne has never even seen the m2 before his SGPro takes the same idea behind it and improves it in some ways!

Phil

Thank you very much Phil :D,

so an over-simplified summary so far is:

*setup-time: Brevis (a minute less) > M2/SGPro (15 minutes)
*Edge-to-Edge-Sharpness: SGPro leads by an edge while Brevis can perform well most of the time & M2 can perform well too under "controlled environment"
*professional look: M2 > Brevis > SGPro (if people are willing to pay more for a nice logo yet want a good impression of Pro, then M2 is top of their list).

I think it is good to have a compiled version of your review so people can justify what point is more important to them.

For me, Edge2Edge > setup-time >>> pro-look.

Look forward to more of your personal experience on these great products especially if any chance you can cover those inquiries I emailed you before :).

ta~

Phil, do you have grabs from each Adapter of a chart or a scene to compare?

Couple of points on the edge to edge issue. First there are a few factors to consider when testing for it.

1. Phil did this test with the old version of the Nikon lens mount which we've scrapped. There were too many problems with alignment and the manufacturer simply couldn't bring it up to our requirements as far as quality goes. The new design drops in at it's proper register (but we've left room for fine tuning to the diffuser options if required) and has a much tighter XY tolerance (about .005"). The new design is much better.

2. There are two areas to check for proper axial alignment at the rear of the unit. There is no guess work or measuring, just attention to detail on those points. If the GG is not perfectly perpendicular to the optical axis, under very shallow DOF condtions you could see differential focus edge to edge. If you are framed (see below) for 16:9, you may also be pushing the 35mm image cone.

3. Our 72mm achromat as well as the 16:9 biased imaging adapter actually allow you to exceed the 35mm "standard" horizontal field of view. This means that you can potentially push the envelope of the 35mm image cone. While this is great, not all lenses will perform at their best across a perfectly perpendicular focus plain like this. Fortunately, very few shots using DOF are composed that way, so this is something you can only typically pick out using a focus chart under controlled conditions. We always suggest carefull testing with all your lenses first so that if this is an issue for that lense, you can plan for a more "typical" 35mm format frame.

So basically, if you require perfect edge to edge sharpness, the adapter is very capable of doing this.

Philip, what about the light loss? which one can operate better in low light conditions?

If you can all hang on all your questions will be answered in the rest of the article when I get it done.

It is going to have to wait though as my beloved cat "Arnie" the star of my short Kitty Crack died today aged just over a year. One minute he was playing fetch with me the next he was dead.

He was the most human animal I have ever met. Devoted and adorable. My girlfriend and I are devastated. It's hard to explain to non pet lovers but it feels absolutely awful.

Sorry to hear that Phil...

Very sorry for your loss Phil...

I know what thats like loosing the most beautiful Rottweiler the good Lord ever created, Katie Bear last year, and near that point once more,
as our cat Amanda is 23 years old,
and our English Mastiff Bear is 11 years old.
All the best to you and your girlfriend!

Unfortunately I know just how you feel -- my condolences to both of you,

Phil, we lost our great feline friend Gus the Cat (15 or so years old) last year. My daughter still asks those difficult questions like "how come we can't visit him in heaven"? The little buggers really manage to sneak in as legitimate family members, and are mourned much the same. It's great that you've got the video (and no doubt many pictures) to remind you of your special relationship with him.

life's a gift
 

Wow, well my girlfriend and I just lost a puppy- one that she searched, dwelled, and contemplated getting for a very long time. We were so relieved to have him, and he definately lit up our lives for the short time we had him. While holiday traveling we left him with the original owner, who took great care of him. Unfortunately he ate a poisonous plant that she was unaware she had and died, along with a new puppy of her own. My girlfriend is devasted, and I know its only a dog, but its been a week of the reminder of the fragility of life after one of my residents here at school lost an arm in a car accident, with two friends in the driver and passenger seats dead. Its a broken world. I feel your loss Phil.

-Alan

Sorry to hear that Phil.

I have just had some bad news myself, my grandmother passed away last night. She helped me so many times in my life, always thinking of others. She will be greatly missed.

Phil, Wayne . . . condolences to both of you.

its amazing how such a litte thing can become so competely part of your family. He was in all but name a dog. Totally dependent on us, couldnt look after himself, played fetch, ate anything he could get his hands on. The house is very quiet without him!

Really sorry to hear about your nan Wayne. I hope you are OK.

With regards to the shootout. I will finish it during the week

Best

Phil

I am very sorry to hear that Phil, sometime love is such an as wonderful yet as difficult thing...

I hope you have taken some video of Arnie, it would be a treasured memory...

Hello,
I have been lurking here for a while waiting for the results as many others...
was compelled to post to let you know I was sorry to hear about Arnie the cat. Mine is over twelve years old and still jumping around.

Kitty Crack was great.

Regards,
Tom

Cats and Dogs
 

My condolences Phil. I myself have 8 dogs in my small home=) And my girlfriend, she likes cats very much. I cant imagine how it's going to be if we're getting married=)

cheers Ian. That's a lot of dogs, think your girlfriend will need to get 8 cats to even it out!

Hello Phil,

Do you think we can see something on page 2 soon ?

I'm sorry for your cat, I lost my big Bouvier des Flandres last fall. There is an empty space in the house.

Best.

Yves

That was me
 

Hi Philip, you say in the shootout that there was someone who came up to you in Covent Garden and asked you if the Breivs was a 35mm adapter, I have a brief memory of talking to someone just before Christmas in Covent Garden who had a 35mm adapter on an HXV and I doubt there could have been two people, so, that's odd.
I also saw someone in passing in Spitalfields market with something that looked like an adapter, maybe on a z1, but I can't remember, could that have been you as well?
Eh, feck, I hope I don't sound like a stalker.
John

Hi John

That must have been me. i was filming a big issue guy, part of my homeless portraits video. I gave the guy I spoke to my business card...I have also done some stuff in Spitalfields too, both on the HVX with the Brevis!

Yves...Doing page 2 now. For some reason I have identified each clip verbally as I should have done so there are a couple of shots that I dont have a clue what they are!!!

Whoops!

Phil

Hey Phil,

Will there be any mention to which adapter is best for use with really fast shutter speeds?

Cheers mate,
Dennis

yes there will be Dennis. Although no test was done for this. Both the m2 and SGpro can handle very fast shutter speeds without a problem. The Brevis can too, although you need to have the newer model or get Dennis Wood to update your old one and then change the frequency of the vibration, otherwise you see the GG. So not as easy as the m2 and sgpro, but it can be done.

Phil, I’m sorry for your loss.

Good review so far. Having used a M2 on several shots now I have to say I really hope never to have to use one again. I’m just sick of messing with it and trying to get it to focus sharp and to get edge to edge sharpness. It’s a pain to set it up. Specially the first time you get it or when you change lens mounts. The fact that you have to adjust the GG yourself is a real design flaw and actually feels lazy from their part. “Let’s let them customers have the trouble to make the adapter work”. Although I’ve never used a Sgpro, I know you don’t need to mess with the GG. So I can’t see how could you possibly set a M2 up as fast as a SGPro. I have no idea if you need to mess with the Brevis GG to set it up but if you do, bugger! That’s what I love about the Mini35. Pretty much plug and play!

Edge to edge with the M2 is a nightmare. First the rubber hood thing is really a homemade solution and it should come with a hard mount. The rubber hood is useless. You just can’t get E to E sharpness with it. You may think you got it, but if you shoot a rez chart and play it back on a large HD monitor you will see it’s still soft. So when considering the M2 one needs to factor in the need to buy and assemble some sort of hard mounting system. But even hard mounted, E to E is painful. The adapter is just not well thought out at all in my opinion. The battery mounting system, the GG adjustment mess and the rubber hood for mounting shows that.

I have never used the Brevis or SGpro so I’m not sure about E to E with them, but based on what I have seen, you can see the GG grain on the Brevis at higher shutter speeds and the pattern looks pretty ugly. Much worse then IF you see the grain on the M2 (which is very hard to happen. The M2 is great on this respect). That’s just the downfall of vibrating type of adapter.

About looks, quite honestly, I’m not sure why having a square box or a pipe mounted in front of your camera lens would look any professional, but that may be just me. If any thing, anybody who is used to cameras can see that it must be some sort of work around thing. The Mini35 although much better designed to integrate with the camera and basically looks like a bigger camera still looks odd. The MovieTube is the one that has the best integration. But between the Sgpro, M2 and Brevis, I don’t think the M2 looks the most professional. Since it’s the bulkiest of the three and looks basically like a brick, I would put it last for looks. A logo doesn’t make anything look pro IMO and I actually always found the huge bright blue M2 logos quite cheesy and at least 2 too many. One logo would have been enough to give it some character. No need for a huge logo on “every” side of the box. But then again that may be just me and is a minor thing really. I actually like the Sgpro slim profile much better. Also its hard mount seems to be much better than the M2 rubber thing. The Brevis seems to work well with small cameras like the Z1 or DVX100. But I think it would look pretty silly on a HD100 or XL-H1 because they already have long lenses and the Brevis tube would make it look really look and awkward. The M2 and Sgpro at least break it down with the box shape. Also, while with still lenses the Brevis seems to be ok, with heavier PL or OCT-19 lenses it just doesn’t seem it would be very solid. Even with rod support. Just to much space between the poor lens mount and the support. The box type of adapters seem to provide a much better and solid solution than the telescope aspect of the Brevis system. Now again I don’t have any of these adapters, but I have used the M2 extensively on several shots. I have also used the Mini35 for several shots. But I haven’t come across any Sgpros or Brevis. I’m just basing my opinions on what I have seen online and on how the adapters work. If I would buy an adapter today I would go for the Sgpro with a PL mount. Because it’s the sharpest, has the nicest bokeh, I know you don’t need to mess around with the GG, I like the slim profile better than the M2 and it’s hard mounted and seems to be pretty solid. The M2 is a pain to set up, too bulky and has too many compromises for my tastes. The Brevis design just doesn’t feel solid enough (for my camera, which is a HD100) and seems it would put to much pressure on my camera’s mount. It just doesn’t fly with me. After have tried the 2 high end adapters (Mini35 and Movietube) and the M2, I grew to like a more solid, stable and integrated set up when doing feature work and the Brevis doesn’t fall on that category for me. It just seems to add more length and nothing to stabilize it. It's really a run and gun adapter best suited to handycams than for feature production. On the top of that, I’m finding I’m not really fond of the vibrating breed. The Sgpro is solid enough yet not too bulky. I love the boken it produces too. Of course, if I had the money I would just go with the Mini35 and forget all the headaches of the low-end adapters. But among the affordable ones, the Sgpro seems to have the least of compromises and to make the nicest images, which in the end of the day is what really counts.

Michael, thanks for your extensive (and most honest) expressed opinion. It's nice to see someone actually tell the truth and speak up with their thoughts.

Having said that I have an M2 I just ordered and need to list on ebay.

; )

With the M2 and the later comers, there is a bit of a leapfrog thing going on. If the Redrock team devise and build a revision, like as not, the Dennis and Wayne's projects may be overtaken.

Once stuff starts getting sold, standardisation of components occurs for reliable repetition, otherwise it is handbuild of everything and there is little profit in that.

That's when you get locked into a fixed design. With low volume production runs, design revisions can mean very expensive component redundencies if they are custom for the product. Unless you can resell them, they make for a very expensive roadside collection or garage sale.

Changing a design mid-stream can be a bankrupting decision but failure to come up to market expectations can be equally disastrous.

If the Redrock people as the first players decide to revise, this may well put the newer designs behind, so a familiar game of evolutionary leapfrog may occur. This may not be economically sustainable for everyone.

Meanwhile, if P+S decide there is profit in making one more major revision before all groundglass based image relay is made obsolete by RED and lower cost clones, their new product will be very interesting and perhaps set a impossible benchmark for home-builders.

Yes Bob, I'm totally interested in seeing what PS Technik has up their sleeve - if anything at all however.

Somehow I doubt it. It seems to me their market exists because everyone who already owns a DVX, HVX, XL1, XL2, HD100, PD150/170, etc.. goes out and rents an adapter for $250/day so it's the rental houses buying the mini35 units not necessarily hundreds of individuals.

I own a mini35 but that's just because for me it was easier to offer flexible services to potential clients as well cut deals when necessary.

The PS Technik mini35 will be around for quite some time and it's unlikely RED will put any dent in their market. It's hard to say.

With edge-to-edge sharpness, isn't that a matter of the right achromat/pcx? Wouldn't it be simple just to change that to better the m2? I noticed with macro lenses that it is sharpest in the center and tends to get more blurred as it moves to the edges. Is this the problem that the m2 is having? I guess that the Brevis and SGpro have figured that part out and how to avoid it, but it surprises me that redrock hasn't...

My imagining on the Mini35 is that they might lengthen the crank throws to move the GG a little more and that they might experiment with very fine optical fibres in a coherent bundle sliced off as a wafer as a substitute for the traditional groundglass.

I understand Photonis have got the res of their GenII+ night vision tubes up to 80 line pairs per mm, so that potentially represents 1760 lines of resolution on a 22mm wide groundglass area.

If my math is correct this would put P+S ahead of the game HDV wise if the fibres used on the NV tubes could be made to work with low loss. It would be a little short in horizontal res in the true HD realm unless the groundglass area is made bigger.

But I failed math from grade 5 onwards so I could be way wrong.

I have never seen grain on my Brevis lens stopped down or no, on my Panny HD monitor, or my plasma/lcd televisions from my HVX Brevis rev1 combo. The one thing i've learned having owned a couple of different adapters is there is no way in hell to judge the image on the web with compression. I use to think I was seeing way more noise on my HVX until I broke down and bought a real monitor. The Brevis puts no strain on the lens...its Carbon fiber and ultra light nothing like the Letus or the flip and there is lens support for it. I love how people qualify they've never owned something and give qualitative in depth reviews based off of what? I know Michael...we've had these discussions before, i just remember how much you touted the M2 and the G35 against everything being made, and now you're trashing it. Steve Dinkins loved the MPIC, now he has an M2. Cassidy Bisher shoots some of the most inspired footage i've seen from the Motivity site and they use the M2. Bob Gundu's footage has always been awesome with the Brevis, as well as Phil's for his documentary. Point is get what you can afford, because if you don't have skills with the camera these adapters won't help you polish a turd.

I completely agree with you, if you never had the adapter in your hand and tried it, how can you give qualitative review.