I don't know brother but Phil started this thread weeks ago, and there are people on here waiting, salavating like their very creative lives depend on it. Its kind of...I don't know annoying...like damn if you don't own one get one and shoot something. If you don't like it sell it and get a different one just because I like the Brevis means squat, some people don't like the M2 but DP's on 24 sure liked it.

Hi Phil, did I miss out something ? I see only one picture in the page2 ?? or you are still working on this ?

many thanks

Can anyone say why it necessary it to use 36x24mm over 24x18mm (such as what the RED CCD sensor uses?)

all done. hope at least one person finds it useful!!

Best,

Phil

P.S. Watch Channel 4 this friday at 1930. My first doco for the insider goes out. partly shot with the M2

Hi Phil,

Not getting anything from page 6 onwards...

Been really looking forward to reading this though - its a tough choice!! Anyone know if there are any adapters avaliable in the classifieds section? I'm not allowed in there yet!

Thanks for your work on this though Phil, and ill remember to tune in for your documentary!

Jim

Aww crap, just remembered im in New York this week... ill have to get someone to tape it!

Do James! It should be available on Channel 4 on demand too.


Check again now...it was probably still publishing. You were probably the first to check!

Phil

Dear Phil

Nice review. Thank you for all of your efforts.

Great work Phil, nice to see the finished report!

Looking at the stills you provided it becomes clear that with the Brevis you gain 2 stops over the M2 and you gain 1/2 to 1 full stop with theSGPro over the M2. It seems there's been some speculation as to the amount of light loss by the M2 - now we know for sure!

My favourite image from all the stills you provided is the SGPro 50mm set @ f4 and camera set @ f3.4.

To me this still looks most natural and life like. I have to be honest and say that the M2 also pleases my eye with much of the same natural color reproduction. Although not "exactly" the same I find the SGPro and M2 stills closest to one another and the Brevis images most different from the two.

The Brevis images seem to have a disturbing amount of more color or saturation? It could be a simple matter of preference I suppose.

One question: Why was the field of view wider with the SGpro ?

Thanks, again great work Phil!

Greg, I think you are talking by the elbows. Please dig the post where I praised the G35. I actually always criticized the hype with no product and I was actually right. Where is it now?
About the M2, it makes good images. If you don't analyze it on a real monitor it's hard to catch the lack of edge to edge sharpness. I was basing my opinion on what I saw online. Now that I have used the M2 extensively I see the real performance and I can and have the right to criticize it. About the Brevis and SGpro I'm just basing it on what I have seen online and on the laws of physics and I clearly state that on my writing. I never claimed to be an expert on Sgpro or Brevis usage. Who said that was a review? Yes, it was a review of the M2 which I have used several times on real world shooting. About the Sgpro and Brevis, it was my personal opinion. So what's your problem?
By the way, the ugly grain pattern I saw on the Brevis high shutter clip wasn't compression artifacts, but whatever. About not adding strain to the lens, I never said it adds strain to the lens. I said it adds strain to the lens mount! Quite a different deal. Of course, you wouldn't know it, you use a fixed lens camera, right?

First, of all, thanks for putting all that work into your review! Is there any chance of grabbing similar shots using CF3, and your new adapter with new drive/Nikon mount, and adding them in? It would be a great comparison shot if you can reproduce at least the framing again. I'll fire one out to you....you'll like the bokeh.

Definately Dennis. Would love to try it out.

With regards to the warmer tinge to a couple of the Brevis shots I think that is more to do with some of the shots being a tad over than the Brevis itself making it look warmer. It's only on the F8 setting that it looks warmer, the other adaptors were well under on that fstop.

Phil

With regards to the field of view being wider...the m2 wasnt that well set up and we zoomed in a bit more than the others as we could see the motor a little. With more time we could have got it a bit wider. The brevis is zoomed in the correct amount to get past the vibrating GG edges and the SGPro actually needed to be zoomed in a bit more as there was a bit of vignetting. But it still is a bit wider, best if Wayne could answer that! Wayne?

Thanks Phil for your comments. With a little tweak in post I was able to tone down the brevis image down to where the others were - or alternatively tweak the other two a little to where the Brevis was.

Good stuff!

Thank you Phil
 

Thank you so much for your quick review and dozen of images.

Now I am in a deeper loop of making a good decision.

Your test has just confirmed what I have been wondered long time:
SGPro is good for outdoor due to the way it handles midtone & exposure better yet Brevis is just the clear winner in low light or indoor situation.

I love the nature light & exposure of SGPro yet I love the versatile and flexibility of Brevis.. I disappoint to SGPro can't make the setup faster with flexible len mount (as I have both Nikon & Canon len) yet I regret Brevis can't keep the explosure & color as nature as possible...

All are lovely products but I have spent too much money over last two months, perhaps I have to clam down myself for another month before I decided to buy in both of them.

Any chance Wayne & Dennis can work together so that Wayne's achromat can fit with to Dennis adapter to achieve greater edge-to-edge sharpness ? Phil, what is your thought in this ?

Thanks a lot again for your lovely review.

Another Test-out ?
 

Oh yes, as Dennis mentioned to make another test with the latest CF3.

So Phil & Wayne, Is it possible for me to join you both if you decide to make another test sometime in March (as I away from UK at Feb) ? I am not expert in anyway and I have no gear to help the test with too (as all my stuff are at Malaysia) but at least I can treat you a drink & meal, it is just nice to learn from Pro & see how thing is actually done :-).

thank you~

I'm studying in Brighton this semester (and was just in London last weekend--loved it!) I don't have my Guerilla35 with me, but if you want I can try to get my family to ship it down for testing, or maybe I can bring it for summer term.

I'll give away the conclusion, though:
Significant light loss.
Excellent, excellent bokeh and "organic" response to light.
Great resolution but much less so at f2.4 than f2.8 and above (on the dvx's relay lens).
More static grain than you'd ever believe, even occasionally visible at f1.4.
Set up time: 20 seconds. Brilliant edge to edge sharpness with relay lens past f2.8, even at wide open way above average. Calibrated quite well to focus on infinity accurately, etc. etc. and needs no adjustment. (But, of course, it can't be adjusted.)

It's static grain (and a bit of light loss) away from being truly phenomenal. It has a 52mm achromat, which is of the highest quality and performs wonderfully and I agree that the smaller achromat is a generally excellent choice. Too bad the project apparently went nowhere.

Ing, one of the major issues/tradeoffs here is compactness. We could use a weaker/smaller achromat, but we'd end up with a much longer lead-in tube, and at shorter lengths, potential vignetting due to the smaller achromat. The 72mm achromat is definitely better in our application, which is why we abondoned the 58mm alternative.

Phil has two units now, one with the new drive system/Nikon mount, and one without. The review was done with the old unit, which would not have been my preference, however that's all Phil had at the time. Had I been there to tune up the unit for the review, the old one would have been fine...however our goal in making the design changes/new drive was to reduce the requirement for fine tuning to near zero.

I'm long, long overdue to do a shoot with the three imaging elements, so I'll be posting that up shortly.

I've just seen four episodes of the new series that I have been shooting for Channel 4. It's not been graded yet, but it's so depressing to have spent such a long time crafting something to find they have stuck in some interviews shot on a z1 by the director because they couldnt pay for another crew day.

There is one film that is about Co-habitation rights that has a huge amount of M2 shot stuff in it. It is going out in about 4 weeks or so. I am very pleased with how it looks. Stupidly shallow DOF at times for interviews!

PLEASE don't take this shootout as gospel. There were so many mitigating factors that made it as unscientific as "Integlligent Design"!!

I have got much better images with my Brevis at other times, same with the M2. Wayne has a great adaptor and by having him there did give his SGPro an advantage over the others. A really fair comparison would be to get all the makers together with three identical cameras shooting the same scene side by side, this of course is probably never going to happen. So your best bet is still to just read what I have said, read what other people think and make your mind up from that. If you buy any one of these adaptors you have made the right choice. They are all brilliant. Watching the doco that I half shot on the M2, and half on the XDCam showed just how lovely the M2 is.

I havent seen the full Homeless doco that I have shot with the Brevis/ XDCam with the odd interview on the M2. The one that goes out this Friday I have just seen. It has very little M2 stuff in it. Just two sequences inside a Mosque, the rest was XDCAM and Z1 second camera.

I really want to shoot a whole doco using my Brevis, but it has to be a project that I can take my time with, and preferably not handheld. You need a monitor with the HVX, less so with the Z1. I would be creating a huge amount of work for myself doing this but it would be worth it. The more you use them the more you can adapt to the change in shooting styles. When I go back to my full size camera I forget how easy shooting with a nice big zoom lens with low light is!!!!!

Dennis, I will go to the same location when I get the new diffuser and do the same shots again to show the guys here that the Brevis Bokeh is top notch too.

By the way Dennis. My achrmoat has managed to get stuck to the 72mm to 82mm ring and the the ring that steps down to the adaptor. Any idea how I can get them off? If I do I will stick a bit of vaseline on the thread so it doesnt happen again. What is the step ring for the adaptor to the achromat, is it 58 to 72mm?

Phil, thanks so much for your work and for sharing the results with us. Very much appreciated.

Thank you very much Dennis, now I understand why Brevis is shorten then other adapters because of the use of bigger achromat.

But I have a question about the handling of exposure & midtone with Brevis, I remembered I have asked you before and your suggestion is to use more ND to prevent over-explosure.

Phil, please can I know how much ND you have applied to Brevis when doing the test ?

I am happy to step-down aperture and add more ND filters but my concern is whether the image will still look as nature as SGPro ? Please see my attachment for what I am concerning...

Sorry to Phil, as I alter your image without your permission first ;p. As you can see, even Brevis have aperture closed down 1 & half stop but the image still over-exposure...

Phil, if you are going to make the test with CF3 soon, please can you try to make the image without significant over-exposure, I just wonder how much ND & aperture-closing will Brevis need and how would the image look like ?

many thanks again.

Ing, the overexposure is NOTHING to do with the Brevis...it's to do with a tired and cold camera operator.

No ND was used in any of the tests. Yes if using the Brevis in a bright day outside with the standard diffuser ND on the 35mm lens is recommended.

Ing I will try not to overexpose in the future!!!!! What it does show is I am able to overexpose the Brevis at F8 when the other adaptors I couldn't even get the correct exposure!!

Phil, yes, 72-58. Any camera shop should have filter wrenches like these: http://www.amazon.com/Adorama-Filter.../dp/B00009R8I4 to remove them if you need some extra grip. Rather than oil based lubricant, I'd suggest a very light touch of graphite (dry lube). That way there's no chance of lens coating contamination, or getting lube on the outside of the ring! Graphite also has the advantage, as a dry lube, of not attracting dirt. A pencil is a cheap source, or you can purchase graphite lube in any hardware type store. Just make sure you blow off the threads before assembling.

Thank you Phil for your confirmation, so overexposure is nothing to do with Brevis... I saw many sample footages from Brevis users (including Dennis own sample), most of them have a lot of "over-exposure" here and there, Dennis told me that makes more filmic look while I really don't like that look and feel (as real film has more lattitude even in over-exposure image).

That is why I keep wondering can Brevis make a good outdoor image without over-exposure ?

Since you confirm it is nothing to do with Brevis, please can you tell me based on your experience, what f-stop and ND would be required for the same image you took in the test which would prevent over-exposure ? will it make even darken then SGPro in a very un-nature look and feel. Yes, another thing I find out about many Brevis footages are, either a lot of over-exposure or simply too dark, another filmic ? Like a recent footage from Brevis user: Christopher Barry at www.siliconcine.net, he got the similar problem in handling exposure in his latest outdoor test (test 3, Brevis with Nikon 85mm F2.0), either too bright or the front-object is too dark to see...

I am really worrying that the range of mid-tone from Brevis is far too less comparing to SGPro & M2.

Or trying to keep good image without over-exposure is just as difficult as trying to keep minimun light lost in M2 & SGPro ?

Or it is the trend of filmic from everyone ?

mm.. next time please call me out too, I will make sure you will get very comfortable in making test, such as bring extra jacket and some hot drinks.. or some asian-curry :p.. And I can carry heavy stuff for you, that might help a bit :D.

thanks Ing. To be honest until Spring/ Summer comes I couldnt really advise about daylight stuff outside, most of the stuff I have shot has been indoors or crappy winter grey light outside.

I would recommend a selection of ND filters, probably best to get them for a matte box otherwise you need to get different sizes for different lenses.

Thanks a lot again Phil, especially the tips of matte box...

Yes I am looking closely to Dennis' FF & matte box, just wonder when will it be available on sell and the total cost of Brevis + CF3 + FF + Mattebox + Rod support + ND...

Other then saving money, I really don't know what else I can do these days.. ha.

honestly...quite a lot. you no longer in blighty?

Using the same lens f-stop you would use a ND4 (also known as .6) to stop down by exactly 2 stops and get the approximate same exposure level.

It would make it darker for the SGPro or M2 so you would not use the ND filter in that case.

Hope that helps.

Review location?
 

I'm sorry, I must be missing something. I don't see where the review is. Are the comparison photos in this thread, or on Phil Bloom's website? I can't seem to find anything.

Phil -

We also appreciate the efforts you have done. It would have been great to be there in person as well to help with the setup, but unfortunately we aren't neighbors :) I have sent you some email that I think your tests don't reflect the capabilities of the M2. Perhaps we chat offline and give you a few setup pointers

Thanks

Brian

Phil - any chance in posting a full resolution sample of one of your stills? Mainly to see the full screen quality of the HVX with an adapter.

Cheers.

Post edited 7:05pm EST

Actually Phil if you do end up going back to try the CF3 can you grab a still without any 35mm adapter, just a still through the HXV itself?

The review is on my website.

I will do a clean shot on the hvx for comparison. In fact I won't wait until I get the new diffuser I will knock it off in the next couple of days. I will also stick up some hi res stills. How can I do it on this forum...iweb won't let me.

Brian, I think the test was pretty fairish, sure Wayne being there helped things a bit for his adaptor, but with his hard mount edge to edge sharpness would never be an issue.

You have to look at it as a standing start test. A camera and three adaptors starting from scratch. Set up times are an important factor. I clearly pointed out time and again that with more time and if I had set it up in front of a large monitor the edge to edge sharpness would have been better, but I am pretty positive about the M2 in my review. In fact as soon as I can I will get that hard mount sorted for my z1 and never take it off it. I just need to know that if I HAVE to take it off I can...Wayne's hard mount is very well designed making it easy to take the camera on and off

Philip

full rez files here

brevis, m2 then sgpro

interestingly the brevis is slightly warmer. I hadnt noticed it properly before...Dennis why would that be (I dont particulary care as if it was too warm as I would just balance accordingly)?

Hi Phil

I'm not sure to what you are referring re: hard mount, etc. I think I understand that you are saying you used the hardmount with some adapters and not the M2? That would provide some explanation. The M2 performs much better than your samples suggest, but tell you what. Rather than coming across like "yeah but" :) , I do commend you on the shootout, and perhaps we can work with you to better showcase what the M2 and other redrock gear is capable of.

From what I read in the review and understand the M2 uses a rubber boot to go from the camera lens over the tube of the M2. Therefore not being a "hard mount".

Is this correct?


By the way I honestly find the images from all the adapters to be acceptable in terms of image quality. I think the major differences may only be in the setup time, battery changing time, battery hours, light loss/gain, etc.. Likely however with more time for tweaking each adapter can produce exceptional results.

Hi Dennis

The M2 can be used in either configuration - the "soft mount" (as it's been called) allows it to be fitted to just about any camera out there. The "hard mount" is for some of the more mainstream cameras to lock down the connection.

This is always the challenge with shootouts - what's the criteria to be used? image quality for sure, which is really what I was commenting on. There are other things to consider - quality of build translates to important considerations such as longevity on the set, ability to handle large lenses, etc. The M2 has the unique ability to stop down to f16 or more without showing grain. That wasn't something covered in the shootout, nor did I think Phil intended his work to be comprehensive (I don't mean to put words in your mouth, so please feel free to correct me Phil).

Cheers

Brian

Just to chime in...

I own the M2 and I adapted an external battery 9v holder to the unit so battery change time is next to nothing (and the motor still spins at the same speed).

I do look forward to a hard mount (I have the Z1U and the V1U; I plan on using the V1U with the M2). I plan on leaving the M2 attached at all times, and definitely a hard mount will help in keeping the camera/M2 aligned.

I've been pretty close at getting edge to edge sharpness, and I'm pretty pleased with the image. I still have a way to go to get 'perfection', but I'm still happy (and I always get the 'wow' factor when people see the footage).

Todd

Phil, jeeps, this thread has over 10 000 hits! I suspect the difference in colour temp has to do with the coated optics in the unit. Every single optical surface in/on the unit is coated. While it would be nice (and a lot cheaper) to remove the fore/aft shield optics, I think most would agree that keeping the interior of the unit free of dust/debris is good trade-off. Paul Nordin just finished a shoot and posted up pics of the HVX/Brevis car mounted (on the outside of a truck) in Mexico. Dusty!

Hi Guys

This shootout wasn't supposed to be comprehensive. If it was I would have done a scientific comparison between them. It was just a chance for these three adaptors to be in the same place at the same time for the first time and quick test between them all.

I did mention fast shutter speed being a breeze for the m2 and sgpro. I will also add that to the text and mention about how far it can stop down.

I should have realised I was creating a rod for my own back with this but I really do hope that it helps people understand the differences between the three...