Redrock, Brevis, SGPro Shootout

[Ian Lim]

My condolences Phil. I myself have 8 dogs in my small home=) And my girlfriend, she likes cats very much. I cant imagine how it's going to be if we're getting married=)

[Phil Bloom]

cheers Ian. That's a lot of dogs, think your girlfriend will need to get 8 cats to even it out!

[Yves Fortin]

Hello Phil,

Do you think we can see something on page 2 soon ?

I'm sorry for your cat, I lost my big Bouvier des Flandres last fall. There is an empty space in the house.

Best.

Yves

[John Jencks]

Hi Philip, you say in the shootout that there was someone who came up to you in Covent Garden and asked you if the Breivs was a 35mm adapter, I have a brief memory of talking to someone just before Christmas in Covent Garden who had a 35mm adapter on an HXV and I doubt there could have been two people, so, that's odd.
I also saw someone in passing in Spitalfields market with something that looked like an adapter, maybe on a z1, but I can't remember, could that have been you as well?
Eh, feck, I hope I don't sound like a stalker.
John

[Phil Bloom]

Hi John

That must have been me. i was filming a big issue guy, part of my homeless portraits video. I gave the guy I spoke to my business card...I have also done some stuff in Spitalfields too, both on the HVX with the Brevis!

Yves...Doing page 2 now. For some reason I have identified each clip verbally as I should have done so there are a couple of shots that I dont have a clue what they are!!!

Whoops!

Phil

[Dennis Hingsberg]

Hey Phil,

Will there be any mention to which adapter is best for use with really fast shutter speeds?

Cheers mate,
Dennis

[Phil Bloom]

yes there will be Dennis. Although no test was done for this. Both the m2 and SGpro can handle very fast shutter speeds without a problem. The Brevis can too, although you need to have the newer model or get Dennis Wood to update your old one and then change the frequency of the vibration, otherwise you see the GG. So not as easy as the m2 and sgpro, but it can be done.

[Michael Maier]

Phil, I’m sorry for your loss.

Good review so far. Having used a M2 on several shots now I have to say I really hope never to have to use one again. I’m just sick of messing with it and trying to get it to focus sharp and to get edge to edge sharpness. It’s a pain to set it up. Specially the first time you get it or when you change lens mounts. The fact that you have to adjust the GG yourself is a real design flaw and actually feels lazy from their part. “Let’s let them customers have the trouble to make the adapter work”. Although I’ve never used a Sgpro, I know you don’t need to mess with the GG. So I can’t see how could you possibly set a M2 up as fast as a SGPro. I have no idea if you need to mess with the Brevis GG to set it up but if you do, bugger! That’s what I love about the Mini35. Pretty much plug and play!

Edge to edge with the M2 is a nightmare. First the rubber hood thing is really a homemade solution and it should come with a hard mount. The rubber hood is useless. You just can’t get E to E sharpness with it. You may think you got it, but if you shoot a rez chart and play it back on a large HD monitor you will see it’s still soft. So when considering the M2 one needs to factor in the need to buy and assemble some sort of hard mounting system. But even hard mounted, E to E is painful. The adapter is just not well thought out at all in my opinion. The battery mounting system, the GG adjustment mess and the rubber hood for mounting shows that.

I have never used the Brevis or SGpro so I’m not sure about E to E with them, but based on what I have seen, you can see the GG grain on the Brevis at higher shutter speeds and the pattern looks pretty ugly. Much worse then IF you see the grain on the M2 (which is very hard to happen. The M2 is great on this respect). That’s just the downfall of vibrating type of adapter.

About looks, quite honestly, I’m not sure why having a square box or a pipe mounted in front of your camera lens would look any professional, but that may be just me. If any thing, anybody who is used to cameras can see that it must be some sort of work around thing. The Mini35 although much better designed to integrate with the camera and basically looks like a bigger camera still looks odd. The MovieTube is the one that has the best integration. But between the Sgpro, M2 and Brevis, I don’t think the M2 looks the most professional. Since it’s the bulkiest of the three and looks basically like a brick, I would put it last for looks. A logo doesn’t make anything look pro IMO and I actually always found the huge bright blue M2 logos quite cheesy and at least 2 too many. One logo would have been enough to give it some character. No need for a huge logo on “every” side of the box. But then again that may be just me and is a minor thing really. I actually like the Sgpro slim profile much better. Also its hard mount seems to be much better than the M2 rubber thing. The Brevis seems to work well with small cameras like the Z1 or DVX100. But I think it would look pretty silly on a HD100 or XL-H1 because they already have long lenses and the Brevis tube would make it look really look and awkward. The M2 and Sgpro at least break it down with the box shape. Also, while with still lenses the Brevis seems to be ok, with heavier PL or OCT-19 lenses it just doesn’t seem it would be very solid. Even with rod support. Just to much space between the poor lens mount and the support. The box type of adapters seem to provide a much better and solid solution than the telescope aspect of the Brevis system. Now again I don’t have any of these adapters, but I have used the M2 extensively on several shots. I have also used the Mini35 for several shots. But I haven’t come across any Sgpros or Brevis. I’m just basing my opinions on what I have seen online and on how the adapters work. If I would buy an adapter today I would go for the Sgpro with a PL mount. Because it’s the sharpest, has the nicest bokeh, I know you don’t need to mess around with the GG, I like the slim profile better than the M2 and it’s hard mounted and seems to be pretty solid. The M2 is a pain to set up, too bulky and has too many compromises for my tastes. The Brevis design just doesn’t feel solid enough (for my camera, which is a HD100) and seems it would put to much pressure on my camera’s mount. It just doesn’t fly with me. After have tried the 2 high end adapters (Mini35 and Movietube) and the M2, I grew to like a more solid, stable and integrated set up when doing feature work and the Brevis doesn’t fall on that category for me. It just seems to add more length and nothing to stabilize it. It's really a run and gun adapter best suited to handycams than for feature production. On the top of that, I’m finding I’m not really fond of the vibrating breed. The Sgpro is solid enough yet not too bulky. I love the boken it produces too. Of course, if I had the money I would just go with the Mini35 and forget all the headaches of the low-end adapters. But among the affordable ones, the Sgpro seems to have the least of compromises and to make the nicest images, which in the end of the day is what really counts.

[Dennis Hingsberg]

Michael, thanks for your extensive (and most honest) expressed opinion. It's nice to see someone actually tell the truth and speak up with their thoughts.

Having said that I have an M2 I just ordered and need to list on ebay.

; )

[Bob Hart]

With the M2 and the later comers, there is a bit of a leapfrog thing going on. If the Redrock team devise and build a revision, like as not, the Dennis and Wayne's projects may be overtaken.

Once stuff starts getting sold, standardisation of components occurs for reliable repetition, otherwise it is handbuild of everything and there is little profit in that.

That's when you get locked into a fixed design. With low volume production runs, design revisions can mean very expensive component redundencies if they are custom for the product. Unless you can resell them, they make for a very expensive roadside collection or garage sale.

Changing a design mid-stream can be a bankrupting decision but failure to come up to market expectations can be equally disastrous.

If the Redrock people as the first players decide to revise, this may well put the newer designs behind, so a familiar game of evolutionary leapfrog may occur. This may not be economically sustainable for everyone.

Meanwhile, if P+S decide there is profit in making one more major revision before all groundglass based image relay is made obsolete by RED and lower cost clones, their new product will be very interesting and perhaps set a impossible benchmark for home-builders.

[Dennis Hingsberg]

Yes Bob, I'm totally interested in seeing what PS Technik has up their sleeve - if anything at all however.

Somehow I doubt it. It seems to me their market exists because everyone who already owns a DVX, HVX, XL1, XL2, HD100, PD150/170, etc.. goes out and rents an adapter for $250/day so it's the rental houses buying the mini35 units not necessarily hundreds of individuals.

I own a mini35 but that's just because for me it was easier to offer flexible services to potential clients as well cut deals when necessary.

The PS Technik mini35 will be around for quite some time and it's unlikely RED will put any dent in their market. It's hard to say.

[David Delaney]

With edge-to-edge sharpness, isn't that a matter of the right achromat/pcx? Wouldn't it be simple just to change that to better the m2? I noticed with macro lenses that it is sharpest in the center and tends to get more blurred as it moves to the edges. Is this the problem that the m2 is having? I guess that the Brevis and SGpro have figured that part out and how to avoid it, but it surprises me that redrock hasn't...

[Bob Hart]

My imagining on the Mini35 is that they might lengthen the crank throws to move the GG a little more and that they might experiment with very fine optical fibres in a coherent bundle sliced off as a wafer as a substitute for the traditional groundglass.

I understand Photonis have got the res of their GenII+ night vision tubes up to 80 line pairs per mm, so that potentially represents 1760 lines of resolution on a 22mm wide groundglass area.

If my math is correct this would put P+S ahead of the game HDV wise if the fibres used on the NV tubes could be made to work with low loss. It would be a little short in horizontal res in the true HD realm unless the groundglass area is made bigger.

But I failed math from grade 5 onwards so I could be way wrong.

[Greg Bates]

I have never seen grain on my Brevis lens stopped down or no, on my Panny HD monitor, or my plasma/lcd televisions from my HVX Brevis rev1 combo. The one thing i've learned having owned a couple of different adapters is there is no way in hell to judge the image on the web with compression. I use to think I was seeing way more noise on my HVX until I broke down and bought a real monitor. The Brevis puts no strain on the lens...its Carbon fiber and ultra light nothing like the Letus or the flip and there is lens support for it. I love how people qualify they've never owned something and give qualitative in depth reviews based off of what? I know Michael...we've had these discussions before, i just remember how much you touted the M2 and the G35 against everything being made, and now you're trashing it. Steve Dinkins loved the MPIC, now he has an M2. Cassidy Bisher shoots some of the most inspired footage i've seen from the Motivity site and they use the M2. Bob Gundu's footage has always been awesome with the Brevis, as well as Phil's for his documentary. Point is get what you can afford, because if you don't have skills with the camera these adapters won't help you polish a turd.

[Yves Fortin]

Originally Posted by Greg Bates

I have never seen grain on my Brevis lens stopped down or no, on my Panny HD monitor, or my plasma/lcd televisions from my HVX Brevis rev1 combo. The one thing i've learned having owned a couple of different adapters is there is no way in hell to judge the image on the web with compression. I use to think I was seeing way more noise on my HVX until I broke down and bought a real monitor. The Brevis puts no strain on the lens...its Carbon fiber and ultra light nothing like the Letus or the flip and there is lens support for it. I love how people qualify they've never owned something and give qualitative in depth reviews based off of what? I know Michael...we've had these discussions before, i just remember how much you touted the M2 and the G35 against everything being made, and now you're trashing it. Steve Dinkins loved the MPIC, now he has an M2. Cassidy Bisher shoots some of the most inspired footage i've seen from the Motivity site and they use the M2. Bob Gundu's footage has always been awesome with the Brevis, as well as Phil's for his documentary. Point is get what you can afford, because if you don't have skills with the camera these adapters won't help you polish a turd.

I completely agree with you, if you never had the adapter in your hand and tried it, how can you give qualitative review.