I don't know the price of KAI-2093, but probably you are right.

No, will stay with 100 for a while - it is supported in the CPU itself. I'm counting on better compression.


The main 10353 board has IDE signals on a high-density 40-pin connector that will need just an adapter to connect HD. 10357 board connects to that IDE and has a programmable FPGA that initially will work as a simple multiplexor switching that bus to one-of-four , each having 2 (master/slave) CF cards connected (used in "true IDE" mode).

Of course you do not have to use that board and just connect a HD instead.

If we change the software html layout, is there a way to link the record button to a simple sound recording? Possibly with the output in the same directory as the video file?

Any additional board to get a PCI connection to the main board?

Hi Andrey so when will be abvailable the 333 + 5mpixel cmos micron sensor?! it will be the MT9P001I12STC sensor unit? how mutch will cost? but it will be better then the 3.1mpixel MT9M001 one? comparing the specifications of these units on micron's site you can find:

------------------- MT9P001 5mp ------------- MT9M001 3.1mp

Resolution: ______ 2,592H x 1,944V __________ 2,048H x 1,536V
RoHS: _______________ Yes _____________________ Yes
Pixel Size: ________ 2.2µm x 2.2µm ___________ 3.2µm x 3.2µm
Mega Pixel: _________ 5Mpixel ___________________ 3Mpixel
Optical Format: ____ 1/2.5 inch _________________ 1/2 inch
Frame Rate: ________ 12 fps ___________________ 12-93 fps
Master Clock: ______ 96 MHz ____________________ 48 MHz
Supply Voltage: ___ 1.7V-3.3V ___________________ +3.3V
Output: _________ 12-bit parallel _____________ 10-bit parallel
Shutter: ____________ ERS ______________________ ERS
Package: ___________ iLCC ______________________ PLCC
Chroma: ____________ RGB ______________________ RGB

Looking at that, resolution is better and output 12bit vs 10bit
but the other spec for me is better the 3mpixel, for what I know:
bigger pixel ---> better light sensitivity
1/2 inch is bigger then 1/1.25 inch ---> better light sensitivity
and about frame rate how many frame we can achieve with the 5mpixel at 1600x800 pixel? less than the 3 mp or the same? with the new sensor it will be fixed the problem due to the rolling shutter in witch, with large images there are some color/exposure difference from the right side and the left side of the picture? many thanks
Matteo

BTW if someone is interested Micron is sampling a 4 Mpixel 250 fps sensor.
Last week it was listed at their page.Now it is gone.
So if someone is in contact with that company, you can ask for it.

http://www.photographyblog.com/index..._image_sensor/

http://www.fast-vision.com/downloads...salessheet.pdf

Part Number: MT9M440C36MT

PS: Anyway I see I was a little late with this thing, cause it seems Wayne M. talked about it in July, 2004

Hi,

nice Sensor, but expensive!
At Framos/Germany 1pc. 1567Euro

Andrey, what about that lowlight hires color sensor fro CCTV I mentioned a week or so ago, apart from that low light 170db low light one I mentioned last year. Is there any chance we could see these, or the Foveon X3, appearing for the camera.

128GB thats great, would be good if it had some frame to swap it in and out. How fast of an data rate can it handle, could it handle raw 720p or more?

This is going to sound silly, but I am interested if the multiple sensor option can be used, so that you can swap to an low light sensor during filming, or between visible, infrared and ultraviolet, or three chip?

Html
 

How about starting a new thread on the software and HTML programming part?
This thread has too many discussions going on at the same time.

I've made a new thread here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...571#post618571

353...
 

Hi all!

I've been following this thread for some time and I find this community and elphel _very_ exciting!

I have a few questions for Andrey:
(please forgive me if these have been answered before)

1. What sensor will be available for the 353 at first release?

2. When will it be possible to buy the 353 + that sensor?
(I dont mind being a beta tester with all it means)

3. With the first release, will it be possible to record video to a harddrive connected directly to the IDE connector? (or will it require custom 353 hardware programming not available at first release?)

4. What format will the recorded data have?

5. What frame rate / image sizes can be selected?
(..or just tell me the sensor name and possible 353 restrictions)

6. If it needs custom programming, where do I find info about tools / language etc? Just need a pointer. Any free compilers?

7. Will the camera casing have space to accomodate a small harddrive?

8. Any idea of power requiements?

9. Will the camera have a C mount?

10. If I use a simple SLR mount (nikon or canon) to C mount adapter (instead of a groundglass solution), what lens multiplier would be in effect?

11. Any idea what the sensor and 353 will cost?

Phew! quite a few questions...

What I would like to do is to come up with a small and portable solution as possible...hopefully with the camera having the HD inside it and controlled by something similar to a Nokia 770 (however the 770 only has wlan...no ethernet connector) using a custom flash/html interface. Im a 3d graphics designer / programmer and do not mind spending serious time to get this to work.

Any feedback would be most appreciated!!

Thanks!

//O.

Control hardware...
 

Possible camera control devices having wired LAN:

OQO2
http://www.dynamism.com/oqo02/main.shtml

Sony Vaio UX
http://www.dynamism.com/ux/main.shtml

..however quite pricey.

Any suggestions?

//O.

Odd, this thread has answers to most of your questions. Read carefully, you'll find them.

Zsolt

And it is rather easy to build a camera (not so small) for that sensor - take 16 of the 10353 boards (one per output), powered gigabit switch and design a simple board to mount the sensor and have 16 connectors fro the 10353 boards.

I just can not work on more projects than I currently do

It is designed fro particular application where hard drives are not appropriate. And flash will not be removable - you may always use Ethernet connection. As for speed - it will depend on ETRAX FS ISE speed - 10359 has an FPGA on it.

That board is designed to simplify FPGA development for some image processing (no need to bother with the one that has a complex video compressor on it). ANd it can be used as a simple multiplexor, of course.

Micron Mt9P001
I hope - early April
We do not have any adapters to actually connect the HD. We also do not have a camera body that will have room for one, that will come later. As well as the software fro recording - but it can be really simple to write on a disk from the softwaer point of view.
Same as camera can provide. Will start with MJPEG and I will restore Ogg Theora (ETRAX FS should be enough to handle some processing needed). All over formats - recode on a PC.
Originally it will be up to (125/3) MPix/sec - the current FPGA code fro 333 can do that. Then - increase to hacve full speed of MT9P001

To be able to do development for these cameras you do not need any expensive (or even non-free-as-in-beer) tools. There are 3 levels (not to count client/PC software)
1 - "Web design" - developing of custom user interface - just any web design tools - you can FTP results to tehy camera
2 - Software applications to run in the camera - you need a PC running GNU/Linux (any flavor) and software from our Sourceforge project page plus additional - from http://developer.axis.com - our software will tell you what to download.
3 - FPGa code development - free (for download) tools from Xilinx - http://www.xilinx.com/ise/logic_design_prod/webpack.htm

It should have - in the future :-)
Model 333 needs a little under 3W. 353 will need about the same - not to count additional modules - hard drive or flash.

CS-mount as it is more universal for cameras - you can install both C and CS lenses

That depends on particular sensor that will be used - each sensor usually has info on the Internet. And, BTW - we'll probably have control for EOS - at least we do now have it for our large cameras


I hope it will be about the same as 333.
Yes, Nokia 770 is a good candidate and it will be possible to add USB WiFi to the camera. Currently we do not have a design for I/O board - main board has IDE, USB (host) and some GPIOs in high-density connectors, so some daughter board with connectors, usb audio, etc. will be needed.

We need to organize data more like FAQ - thread is so big. I'm very busy now so any help in organizing data (starting with this therad) on our WIki (wiki.elphel.com) will be very appreciated.

Hi to all
I have listened the request of Andrey ....looking at the problem of this thread so I'm making this page on the elphel wiki:
http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...face_.28GUI.29

for now is in an early stage but is just something for an hour of work! :-)

Andrey,

I'd like to send you a mail but your mailbox is full...

Zsolt

And is there a chance to output two streams from the fpga? One to the network and the other to the disk?

I was thinking of some multiplexing stuff: every frame gets encoded into the lossless format but only every n'th frame gets encoded into theora. We might do this by buffering some theora frames and do the encoding parallel to the lossless encoder. The problem is, if we mix up the two streams how can we demultiplex them for the appropriate two-way routing?

As far as I know the 333's memory controller is not capable of addressing as it writes the output blocks in an incremental order (correct me if I'm wrong). We might need a one bit addressing scheme with 0 for hdd and 1 for the network then we could demultiplex the data. But I don't know how much the memory controller builds on the ram chip's capability to write larger blocks of data incrementally which is probably more effective than continous random access.

As for the Extras applications I suppose an additional hard disk writer utility wouldn't be a big overhead because all transfers go through dma.

(My encoder won't need much space in the fpga so that's not a problem.)

Do you mean a usb2 host?

Zsolt

I believe such dual output can complicate things a lot. Why do you really need both at the same time?

Memory controller is different for MJPEG and Theora - Theora data structures are carefully built into the controller to provide efficient bank interleaving access for all 6 types of accesses for Theora (line scan order from sensor, Hilbert to comressor, r/w previous frame coefficient, r/w DCT coefficients. Each block access wastes some clock cycles on start/finish, so average (not peak) data transfer rate is about 95% of the theoretical (125MHz, DDR, 16bits - 500MB/sec). Different codecs will require different data structures and memory controllers - it is a significant part of the codec design.

No, USB 1.1 - I thought I mentioned it. The main application - audio. And Axis have nice documentation on their ETRAX FS at http://developer.axis.com/products/etraxfs/index.html (including USB port)

Because during the hard disk recording we'd like to see a real time viewfinder image so we can move the camera while shooting. I think the guys here were talking about the Nokia 770 believing that the two types of streams are actually possible. (It's another question if somebody wants to record the theora stream on the hard disk because that's possible.)

The encoder I'm planning doesn't rely very much on special data structures: for each pixel it needs the previous pixel value on the same coordinate and the output goes directly into the output stream. Therefore what I'm hoping is that I can use the current controller for these two fundamental functions.

You did, but I thought usb1 is already included on the board. I asked usb2 support because wifi cards are usually work with usb2 (54Mbit/s) and the speed of usb1 (12Mbit/s) is hardly enough for real time video streaming. For sound, yes, we might find some external modules that record on usb1, altough the newer models are too using usb2.

Zsolt

Hardware...
 

Thanks for your thorough answers Andrey - much appreciated!

Yes - zsolt, I was hoping to use the Nokia 770 (or a similar device) as a viewfinder...and record the hi-res imagery direct to disk, in-camera.

..however using USB for audio I think would be unnecessary...?

I usually record audio separately using this:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...2496-main.html

..as it gives much more flexibility.
(plus it has phantom feed if needed - and can be found on ebay much cheaper than rrp mentioned on m-audio's site)

Another thing:
Andrey you mentioned you have EOS support on your larger cameras...could you please tell us more about that? How much support would find its way into the 353 and what are those larger cameras?? *curious*

..and matteo? Great work on the wiki!!

thanks

//O.

Yes, that can be a good solution fro now, but I would still like to have a camera with audio in it. First step - be able to use off-the-shelf USB audio.


It is our current model 323 camera and the 363 under development (using 35mm format CCD sensors). We are able to control motorized lenses (at least most commands) and 10347 board has a connector for it. I also plan to have such connector on a planned daughter board in 353, together with IDE connector, USB and possibly a sound chip.


Thanks from me too. I'll contribute when I'll get to a milestone of first images in 353.

For the view finder it would be easier to use low-res MJPEG (still needs modification of the memory controller to implement decimation in FPGA). Doing that for Theora may be to expensive.

You may have that data if you put your module between the sensor and SDRAM (were "gamma" processing is now).

Using USB1 is as easy as connecting to pins on the CPU chip. USB2 needs a major development around it - not as a simple add on. And we already have Ethernet port for video streaming with most of the hardware and software included with the ETARX FS.

Has anyone tried this to reduce the rolling shutter effect?

http://www.guthspot.se/video/deshake...tter%20setting

When I have some time to test it, I'll post the results.

Anyway, correcting the rolling shutter is like a crazy thing if you think deeply about it.
Yes you can correct a "general" "global" distortion, but if your camera is not moving and things inside a frame move fast, how will you correct the wobled moving object?
Most of object movements take place on the X axis, so I guess even having the sensor turned 180 degrees would give a better end result.

Aside from the simplest solutions I already mentioned, now I'm planning to redesign the memory controller around the lossless encoder. It will generate two output streams: full resolution bayer to the hard disk and a quarter resolution 8bit grayscale with 5fps which can go to the Nokia 770 through wifi with the current web streaming architecture. Hope I'll have the time to do this. If somebody wants to do the streamer that would be of great help tough...

Yes, I forgot that we can plug wifi into the ethernet connector also.

Zsolt

look at the gui I'm working on
http://www.webalice.it/teo.poz/elphel_GUI/
a layer over the normal interface :-)
seeya
Matteo

Matteo, the problem I could see is that it is (or at least was) not possible to have transparent objects (like non-rectangular buttons) over the live video - That is why I had to have these controls below the preview window in camvc.

I'm not a flash programmer, I know flash cause I've used it to make a cartoon
but I've read this http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/knowled...fm?id=tn_14201
maybe I'm in mistake but I think that is possible to use a background html page
...one thing that I haven't understand is how can I link a button to a setting variation of the parameter of the camera without changing the html page
I need to learn javascript to do a real time variation?!?

Flash GUI...
 

Hi Matteo!

check out this page:

http://www.echoecho.com/flashbuttons01.htm

Its a tutorial on how to make a flash button with a piece of flashscript that sends parameters when requesting a html page...without necessarily changing the current browser web page. (read the end of the article)
I dont think you can put video in the background and flash on top...I would suggest maybe using frames?

I would gladly have written it for you but I do not have the camera...yet!
However I intend to code my own GUI for it as soon as I have access to a 333 or a 353...

Any questions, feel free to PM me.

good luck :)

//O.

Odd,

I don't think that button will work - as I understand the problem with non-rectangular objects on top of video pluging is with plugin (or plugin mechanism - I don't know) rather than button itself. PNG with javascrit can work the same.

BTW, in camvc software I used a single big png file for all the buttons/states to reduce number of different files on the server (camera). Code just sledes that file behind a small square window. Here is the file:
in the camera - http://camera5.elphel.com/images/camvc_buttons.png
on Sourceforge project CVS - http://elphel.cvs.sourceforge.net/*c...vc_buttons.png

There are multi-layer sorce files also - just replace .png with .xcf

Here is a Makefile that contains list of all the camvc-related files in the camera:
http://elphel.cvs.sourceforge.net/*c...camvc/Makefile

Andrey,

Would it be possible to make a separate HTML frame on top or bottom of the exiting interface and save it to the camera?
And what software will be suitable to edit the html page?

EDIT:
Note that the HTML is discussed in it's own thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85568

The 770 is being replaced (or already has been) see www.brighthand.com archives. If PSP had Linux (through mod should be possible) that would be good. There is Moko Linux phone from FIC. Pity, there is 720*480 Windows phone going at Iphone mentioned recently.

About the internal and external view screen. Can I present there different alternatives to this problem, from the one that requires the most work on your part to the one that requires the least because it just uses the existing photo-jpeg:


Why not produce two related streams, so that the external stream builds on the hard disk version.

The Hard disk version could be differential bayer compressed intra frame compression. Using buffer registers on FPGA you could keep an significant amount of processing off the memory bus. Taking the bayer produce (I've had 3 hours sleep in recent days now I can't remember the terms) but do culling as in Jpeg in the process. Use the culled version for the external view adding intra-frame. This can be aggressively culled to fit wireless or 100mb/s.

You can give more detail to the center of the screen, or only when an small focus area box is brought up. You could pass the hard disk frame out at low frame rate for focusing assist when user requests it.


Now, the simpler way, use Photo-Jpeg grey-scale (normalised to one primary, as I discussed before, can be done in FPGA before goign to memory) at highest quality to disk. At the same time do an more aggressively compressed version to the external device. You could make the external version an normal photo-jpeg, whatever is easiest for the external device to process. This way you largely just use Photo-jpeg and share some processing.


Now the simplest way. Do normal Photo-jpeg at high quality to disk, at same time do the aggressive compression for external device (which should have photo-jpeg support). The external version is based on an subset of processing done for the disk version.

Ogg might be totally unnecessary, if you have enough bandwidth to the hard disk. Ogg might have some advantages intra frame.

Have an good day.

With HTML, isn't it possible to overlay the buttons and the maps, with transparent pixels to make rectangular buttons look differentially shaped?

Wayne,

I believe you could see it on our online camera. The problem is when such object is above video plugin, not above regular image/text

But you don't want the buttons to be -on- the video frame. So, would it be possible to make a separate html frame below the ajax page with the film controls as html links to the camera(and save it to the camera?). Or is it more complex than that?

Other alternatives to the old Nokia Tablet. Here is that Phone, and an new Samsung phone, and I believe Samsung is also the one to soon release and Ultra Mobile PC phone with folded keyboard (www.bright hand.com had news on it too).

http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=4548
No mention of an usable interface though.
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/02...f700_3g_phone/

Neonode.com is about to do an new phone (Pity no Linux).


There are an number of Linux devices too (see allLinuxdevices etc).

Good Window graphics hardware has overlay capability, but Linux probably doesn't support it, let alone plug ins and web interfaces.

Nokia N800
 

The new Nokia N800 (which replaces the 770) has these specs:

• OMAP2420 microprocessor, 330 MHz
• 128 MB of RAM
• 256 MB of flash
• Display: 4.1 inches diagonal, 800×480
• Touchscreen
• WiFi: 802.11b/g
• (2) full-sized Secure Digital card slots
• Speakers and headphone jack

Since it uses the Maemo open-source stack, it is fully customizable.

Maybe it already has - I just have very little experience with that OS since 2001. What I do know is that I could not make camvc work with Internet Explorer as it did not support semi-transparent images I needed (probably the later IE7 does but it was not available then).

Couple years ago I bought a fancy HP handheld (with bright 640x480 screen) because my Zaurus had only 320x240 and the screen was hardly visible at daytime outdoors. I thought a simple task of just displaying JPEGs and some controls in the browser is an easy task so operating system does not matter.

Unfortunately it was not true - the "Mobile XP" system did not have Opera (definitely the best browser for the mobile devices) and I could not install it myself. So - only IE that I (and my more experienced with Windows friends) could make to use 100% of pixels for the content - Windows still preserved a frame of the IE - just made it smaller. It is probably OK on 1920x1200 on a desktop, but not on a mobile device. So failing to make it work I gave that toy to a friend - at that time it was very new and no Linux distro was available for it. And instead I have bought 770 for half the price.

So I consider Opera to be a must for such camera remote controls (disclaimer: I do not use Opera on my "big" computers) and GNU/Linux-based systems are easier to customize if your intended use is somewhat different from what manufacturer had in mind.