I'm interested in buying a 353 too.

Matteo, IDE board is not tested yet, I'm working now on 363 version with large sensors, will get to IDE after the LinuxTag (sometime in June). Currently we have only 10353+10338 with the software just basically ported from the 333 (some bug fixed during that process too)

Standalone rules...
 

Hi all!

Andrey, when you get to do the IDE in June...will you also make a housing that fits the IDE drive? I do know you have a lot on your mind, just curious to know if you think it might happen June/July or something?

I definitely want to buy a 353 once a drive can be fitted within the camera and you can capture video with just the 353 in stand-alone mode!

If it takes awhile before that happens - no problem - I have patience :)

//O.

EDIT:
Oh and congratulations on your first 353 shipped!!! :)

So, what can the 353 do at the moment, can it do anything more than the 333, in Cinema camera terms?

When can we expect various cinema camera projects to come through?


Thanks

Wayne.

Wayne, I hoped I described it in the LinuxDevices article (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?...&postcount=610) :-)

Right now it can do basically the same as 333 (JPEG/MJPEG branch) - our first goal was to switch to the new hardware. I will work on porting (and updating) Ogg Theora in late summer - now I'm busy with high res/slower CCD variant (363). There are several benefits for cinema projects - camera is faster, we have USB port connected (audio) as well as IDE for hard drives. We do not have either of them already running but I'm sure we will.

Other thing - software. I'm starting this migration with CCD (363) version, but it will be come to the video (353) camera too - PHP control of the camera (i2c communication with the senor is already possible from the PHP code). Why is that important - see http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT4415936647.html

hi andrey I've seen on the micron page this cmos sensor
http://www.micron.com/products/cmos/highspeed/partlist
http://download.micron.com/pdf/datas...m413c36stc.pdf
for our hd camera project will be perfect
no rolling shutter problem because have truesnap micron tecnology
big enough to use 35 mm lens (so we have no need for a 35mm adaptor)
and big pixel for good low light shooting ....will be a must!
and not only for hd cinema
you can enter in fast camera market http://automotive.micronblogs.com/20...ap_global.html

(maybe in the future they will produce a 35mm equivalent 1920 x1080p for the cheap...I'm dreaming)


Features/Top Level Specifications
• Array Format: 1,280H x 1,024 V (1,310,720 pixels)
• Pixel Size and Type: 12.0μm x 12.0μm TrueSNAP
(shuttered-node active pixel)
• Sensor Imaging Area: H: 15.36mm, V: 12.29mm,
Diagonal: 19.67mm
• Frame Rate: 0–500+ fps @ (1,280 x 1,024), >10,000
fps with partial scan, [e.g. 0–4000 fps @ (1,280 x 128)]
• Output Data Rate: 660 Mbs (master clock 66 MHz,
~500 fps)

maybe you already know
but ILM industial light and magic have developed :

"OpenEXR is a high dynamic-range (HDR) image file format developed by Industrial Light & Magic for use in computer imaging applications.

OpenEXR is used by ILM on all motion pictures currently in production. The first movies to employ OpenEXR were Harry Potter and the Sorcerers Stone, Men in Black II, Gangs of New York, and Signs. Since then, OpenEXR has become ILM's main image file format. "

http://www.openexr.com/index.html

and blender (the 3d model renderer for linux-win- mac- bsd.....) support it

Matteo, I know about this sensor, but there are several "but":
1 - it has 10 parallel 10-bit outputs, not just one
2 - it is much faster than even 10353 can handle
3 - that sensor is 100x price of the small ones
4 - Sensor is rather old, and I know Micron was improving sensor technology really fast. So I'm not sure that big pixels really "work" proportionally to their area 3-5-8 MPix sensors may have higher relative sensitivity.

So (for special applications) it is really easy to build a fast camera with that sensor - just connect 10 of the 10353 boards and a Gigabit switch - after it there will be a single cable to a computer that can record the 500 fps video.

100x wow so more than 2000$!!!!
crazy

Isn't that sensor available fro around $700US?

Andrey, good idea, high speed cameras are very expensive, and I think a few people came here with cameras for less than $10K, But your plan might lead to an high speed camera for less than $5K, which some around here would be very interested in.

How is the QE and fill factor of that chip now, it was very poor before. How, does it compare to the one from Fillfactory?

About the 353, the hardware is available, but Cinema improvements have not yet been implemented (there are many sub projects going on here, like Bayer codec compression, with unknown separate time schedules).

I decide to post this picture here, to give an comparison here. It is an private photograph, all copyright applied.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachmen...9&d=1178597753

This is from an old camera I tested a few years ago fro the digital cinema camera projects, with up to 20 stops of latitude. It was taken from my place, the blurriness is an quirk on the shot. The exposure is similar in appreciation to exposures you get in Hollywood cinema. It was close to noon on an extremely bright summers day, around an 1000KM from the equator (stacks brighter than what you are normally used to in Europe/States). The leaves on the cane, to the side, normally have large broad burnout on an consumer camera, and are quiet glary/white reflections to the eye, but are well exposed here, while maintaining an lot of features in the shadow under the mango tree (turn up the brightness ion your monitor to see).

This is taken using an latitude extension feature sadly neglected in Cinema cameras we are sued to around here. The old camera, is an maybe $69 credit card camera, with fixed set lens. It uses one of the cheapest sensors (in dollars) and one of the worse I have seen on some measurements of the earlier age of sensors, with SN of 30db from memory and plenty of image artifacts at times, but 20stops of latitude when it wants to. It is an shame not more expensive Cinema camera manufactures could at least take advantage of cheap technology like latitude extension, even when the senor had it. Puts the prices in the Digital Cinema realm into an bit of perspective.

Interestingly, one of the sensors has 70MB/s data rate, but I do not recommend this sensor (except as an improvement to the Sanyo HD cameras ; ). Micron had an extra wide VGA part with an latitude extension technology, so hopefully they will do HD ones without no or fast rolling shutter, and some more descent SN ratio, QE, and fill factor. But you can see how some of the other security related sensors, with better features than this, can be an improvement over the image of the Micron.


Thanks

Wayne.

good to see this ...I think that if we want to enter the market we have to arrive at a very low price max 2/3000$ for all the system so looking at expansive component is a mistake (we have to achieve the best compromise) using cheap component....for the high quality the market is of arri, sony, panavision, panasonic...dalsa, red and silicon imaging not us at the moment! we haven't the money of those factory.
And the good is that if we arrive at a quality that is comparable we will be the winner :-)

I have been working on getting elphel and a pc in a single package. I finished my first version today.

Here is the 3D model where I brainstormed the idea.
http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/model.jpg

after building it:
http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/badIdea.JPG

This is just testing the concept. I picked acrylic because its cheap, available, and often used to build pc cases but I may change the build to all metal. Second, my rods are only 10mm and the next version will be 15mm to make it more stable.

I wish I could make it smaller but standard ATX motherboard size is 12"x9". I'm not too concerned about the size. Judging from what I have seen, film cameras and professional production cameras are big and bigger and that's never held anyone back.

I would appreciate any critique

Cool but...
why do you want to to make all in a single package....it will be very heavy
and the tripod suffer for that!
why not make it the lighter possible and connect the pc with the ethernet cable ----and put a small pc or a notebook with a 7200hd on the floor? pan and tilt will be smoother and you haven't to pay a lot for a good tripod!

I say that because I've realised that for film project you could achieve better result investing money in all but the camera! good light and steady tripod with a cheap camera can make better result than a very good camera and low quality tripod!
olso , I've upgraded the tripod myself! I've take a good one used on ebay but if you need one I've seen this
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...eo_Tripod.html
you could find it also cheaper on ebay new! :-)

if you would achieve better result take one of these
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ype=osi_widget

I've found one at 9$ and it work perfectly

The reason im interested in the elphel cameras is getting a great picture for a small fraction of the price of a camera of the same class. If I was going to go out to buy a laptop to work with the camera, it would cost me a little over $1,000 which is just moving the cost of the entire system up considerably.

After doing a few film shoots already with the 333, it has been a little inconvenient shooting with LCD/desktop/tripod+camera. Moving it was difficult, and pulling focus on the 333 and especially the 35mm adapter was especially difficult because the monitor is not on the camera but on the floor or stationary stand. I had to lock down most of the shots. Also cable management was a bit of an issue too. The monitor is difficult to view outdoors too which makes it hard to frame and focus. A laptop would not be the solution for many of the above issues.

The ideal setup for me would be to have everything in a single package, and eliminate the need for a keyboard/mouse (although have a set avaliable). I plan to use a nostromo N50 for input with a set of macros to adjust camera settings and characters for "s" for scene, 0-9, and "t" for take. "S10-T2.ogm"

The tripod I was using is not going to work for a larger camera. I plan to buy something more stable as soon as i have the chance.

yes but you could make it possible buying a 7"lcd 800x480 tuch screen and mount it directly on the camera like the setup used by the silicon imaging to make the film Spoon
2 cable: one ethernet for the camera and one eternet + vga converter (vga extender) for the lcd it result in a very compact head camera
....I haven't understand what is "S10-T2.ogm"
many thanks

progress update
 

Anybody coming to LinuxTag? We hope to have something to show there - USB and IDE seem to work already (although with a new Axis distro that supports them that is not yet combined with the all of our changes needed for the camera itself). The 10349 board we'll have includes serial port, USB hub (1 external USB host connector and 3 internal ports for future internal audio), and IDE port. We tried laptop 2.5" drive but had to add power so we are going to put a zif-40 connector for 1.8" drives - like "TOSHIBA MK6008GAH 60GB 4200 RPM 2MB Cache ATA-6 Notebook Hard Drive" (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822149046)

so it will be only a question of power for the choose of an hd?!?
it will also possible to connect a 3.5" hd? ...if we provide the right power?
It would be cool because it will be possible to save a lot of money (7200 for 3.5" are a standard ...and also much faster WD-raptor :-) ) maybe we could record 100%jpeg stream :-)

for linuxtag... I can't :-( thought was possible but not

I've tried ubuntu 7.04 ....very cool and fast! also the live is faster than the knoppix :-) ...I m replying from it!
and it recognize all my hardware ...the knoppix do not recognize ethernet for my hw :-(

Yes - it will be possible to connect the 3.5"HDD - I just think it is better to add additional buffers so when applying different powers and screw up the CPU/main board will not be damaged. This is why we prefer to start with a small drive completely powered with the internal voltage - it is better to use 1.8" as it uses 3.3V - not 5.0V as 2.5" so no converter is needed.

The new fastest laptop drive:
Travelstar 200GB 7K200
http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/10/h...rpm-bulk-encr/
http://www.hitachigst.com/portal/sit...ecae2eac4f0a0/
http://www.google.com/search?client=...utf-8&oe=utf-8

The one we used (with additional 5V converter) is 7K100 :-)

UpnRunning??
 

Andrey - do you have a HDD upnrunning inside the camera now??
Any idea of performance yet??

just very curious :)

//O.

So far we tried 2.5"HDD attached to 10349 board with additional 48V->5V DC-DC converter. And were able to access the files.

Our current camera software is based on Axis SDK 2.01 and (as we had to find out) it does not work with either IDE or USB. Since then Axis finally released 2.10 (we could not wait that long) that we made to just boot in the camera and Spectr could access USB and HDD, but he did not yet merge our additions to 2.01 and later Axis 2.10 so we do not have yet camera with HDD. But we will have it at LinuxTag for sure.

Andrey, how you can answer today on this question:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?...&postcount=104 ?

I've been on vacation for a few weeks. But I took the Elphel with me and built a laptop mount on the Tripod. It really makes everything a lot easier. I now use a very fast laptop.
I'll post some pics of the tripod and the laptop.
I also shot a short docu just to test the Elphel for outdoor use. When I have finished editing I'll post the film.

I use the 333 all the time out side, It likes the sun & blue sky! I also use a fast laptop with a 2.5" 7600rpm drive (the Hitachi one I think). Recently been using it with a Sony Vaio FE31 using the original HD & it seems good upto about 70% in most conditions.

Serge, no - I can not yet. We do not have yet any performance data on the camera+hdd - we don't even have yet the firmware that can run both (see my previous post).

hi phil did you use the live knoppix or did you have installed on your hd!?

hi oscar thanks for your next upload :-)

Its best I think to use the live CD. This way the internal HD of the laptop is totally dedicated to video capture. It does take a while to boot up though. But once its loaded into memory it seems fast performance wise.

Does anyone know a place to upload the avi file? It's 50 MB big.

Here is a small version of the 'documentary' I made in France. While my girlfriend was working all day in the garden making a path.... I was testing all aspects of the Elphel. Yes, between some shots I helped her a bit, but filmmaking comes first, right?

This short film also proves you can synch a separate audio recording, using the old method with a clap board (in this case I just clapped my hands and said the take number, the same as the Elphel output filename)
I used a portable minidisc recorder and it really worked fine.
I also used the wax adapter (which really needs to be rebuild to get rid of soft edges), and a 'big' Panasonic TV lens (notice some telephoto close ups of the flowers).

The clip is reduced by half in resolution to upload, and is just a rough cut without color adjustments and some faults in the editing. I'll probably upload the final version at normal resolution of 1600x900 pixels and less compression.
I'll post some stills at full size soon.

You can download the (54MB) file here: http://dvinfo.it-now.org/RomainSurMeuse2.avi (it's in Xvid compression)

353 standalone...
 

Great news!
Too bad I can't go to LinuxTag...have other commitments...

Any idea how long time it will be until you have a casing that can hold the hdd?
..in other words - when can I buy one? :)

//O.

No, we did not work on that. But I don't think it should be a problem for dvinfo community (after having seen those nice photos of DIY cameras).

Oh I was just curious...

The only part I would hesitate to build myself would be the c-mount.
If I can buy the 353 in its original casing with hdd support I see no problem in customizing that :)

Please let us know when you can capture images to the hdd!

//O.

That was really nice! Looks nothing like anything Ive seen on HDV thats for sure! Had a real rustic feel.

good job man I think that this is a very good presentation of the power of this project! :-)
well done

Film...
 

Real cool work Oscar! I look forward to the hi-res one...

Can't wait until the 353 works without a laptop :)

//O.

Thanks, I'll upload the 1600x900 version this week.
It's not so bad to use a laptop. The only thing that slows things down is the software, but then again, only for setting things up. When you're ready to shoot, you can just start and stop recording. Better software could use a function to auto-name the takes of course. That would again speed thing up.
Besides that, you'll always need to shoot from a tripod when you have a camera with a rolling shutter, and the laptop mount I made on the tripod makes it very easy to use. Everything you need is on the tripod.

Here is a picture of the current setup. (I'll make some detailed pictures soon)
http://community.elphel.com/pictures...35mmTripod.jpg

thanks for the image oscar
I've seen that you use a dell inspiron 6400 I think
did you use 7200 rpm hdd!? nvidia or ati video card!?
have you got any trouble with the knoppix live cd?
many thanks
Matteo