Ok, so with the Elphel is it possible to program a long exposure time to get more motion blur while keeping a short frame readout?

yes, you can
take in mind that the motion blur you can achieve is somethig different to the one you 're looking for
cmos sensor function like a paper scanner
take a look at
http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...FAQ#Background
maybe it clarify you some more about the elphel camera

I always shoot at 24Fps. The frame drops are mostly caused by the amount of compression. I can shoot perfectly at 85% 24fps with the Elphel 333.
And if I understand correctly, in the future it should be possible to record the stream of the 353 directly to a separate hard drive, leaving more power on the laptop, so you can crack up the compression quality even more. (Andrey correct me if I'm wrong)

I prefer to reduce the rolling shutter artifact above motion blur. Maybe it's a stupid suggestion, but you can add pretty realistic motion blur in software like after effects, maybe even in VirtualDub.


1)My current setup is fairly usable for short films. I don't have a short film planned right now. I just want to work on some things a bit. I'll post my plans for a dual lens adapter soon. And I'll be working with the 353 model.

2)Yes, and this forum is a wonderful place to get all ideas together. ...it's more a question of collaborative 'brain' power.

3)We tried to make the control interface of the 333 model more suitable for film making, but I hope the software for the 353 model will be easier to modify.

Thanks Daniel.

35mm adaptors are notorious for not working well with HD cameras. I don't know what peoples are up to in the adaptor threads, but there were HD ones.

Just a question... Can the new 353 capture 4:2:2? What about raw bayer for later filtering?

Thanks.

No, just 4:2:0

Right now the raw Bayer code is broken, but I'll restore it in couple weeks (needed for a very urgent project). It is a special type of JPEG (where pixels are treated as monochrome, but rearranged in each 16x16 macroblock) that I described somewhere in this thread (should better put it in our wiki)

Hi Andrey,

I just found the posts talking about that bayer jpeg but I still have some questions.

Does "bayer jpeg" mean we can have full color info stored into a bayer pattern for later filtering but with jpeg file sizes?

Can you still get HD resolutions at 24fps with that kind of compression?

Thanks!

As full, as in the sensor itself. But, of course, 8bits/pixel (as in JPEG). That is also not a big loss as we use non-linear ("gamma") table on the input that makes the data to match noise performance of the sensor (see http://www.elphel.com/actualbits.html).

Current code in the camera (ported from 333) runs compressor at 120MHz, pixel rate is 1/2 of that and with 4:2:0 it corresponds to 40MPix/sec sensor pixels).

In the 353 the components are faster, so it can run (and is tested) at 160 MHz (53MPix/sec with 4:2:0). Our special "raw bayer" JPEG might run faster (80 MPix/sec @ 160 MHz), but the current FPGA code still waits for non-existent color components, so the compression speed is the same.

Great, thanks Andrey.

Thanks Andrey.

Some people are interested in 2 mpixel shooting, I think that 1/1.3mpixel shooting might be more practical in terms of quality. As there is no Bayer below full resolution, is there any chance to use the binned color components, as I described before, to form an 1mpixel Bayer pattern?

At what average compression ratios does the Bayer codec achieve lossless, and visually lossless, Andrey.

I thought that 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 was automatically available with higher quality? Was ti always 4:2:0.


Thanks

Wayne.

hi to all yesterday I've taken a compact flash extreme 3 2gb card for cheap
....it is a 20mb/s read and write card amazing maybe it will be enough so we haven't any power issue and no need of a hd!
one idea I've in mind looking at oscar short film and other hd 24p shoots!
cause to the design of the ccd or the cmos sensor comparing digital to film shoots you can notice an evident flickering in the digital one due to the minor motion blur so, to fix this , in high light shooting why don't shoot in 48p mode and overlap frame one with 50% trasparent frame 2 and so on to achieve a smooth 24p footage...did you think it is possible diectly in camera or it is best to make it in post!?

oh and I've seen on the net that there are 8gb and more
extreme 4 card (85 euro) and are 40MB/sec read and write!

Another future idea would be too shoot 50p full shutter for TV and digital cinema, slow video and audio by 4%, and drop every second frame to get 180 degree 24p?

Why not shoot at 1/48 sec exposure time while keeping frame readout time low? Andrey said it's possible.

yes you can but I want to increase the motion blur! with your method you'll get very sharp image that result in a flickering video like "28 days later" movies

Isn't real film shot at 1/48 shutter? If the sensor reads the frame fast but keeps "adding light" for 1/48 of a second wouldn't it result in more motion blur?

I'm also very interested in getting filmlike motion blur with the Elphel cause I'm using the same micron sensor for my project.

The method I mentioned allows everything to be done. Dropping every second frame gives the conventional film look for 25fps HDTV, slowing 4% gives conventional film look, ever drop framed can be used to smooth out the motion at 24/25fps. Using all the frames gives an ultra-smooth 50p HDTV or digital Cinema, or interlace frames can be easily extracted, allowing for distribution across all formats with the minimum, of image recalculations. The issue is, what is future proof? At 720p50 it can be done in 100mb/s, 1080p50 would need an bit more. At the moment, he industry is waking up to 50p/60p (and 60p HDTV should be able to display higher quality 50p).

An month without an post, you guys are never that quiet, what's happening?

maybe all of you are on holiday!

or maybe someone is gone to another project? ....New DIY HD Cinema Camera Project??

for me I'm here and I'm looking on the net for good medium format lens to use with my next adapter :-)

Hey, I still take a look at this thread from time to time. The Elphel's the only one that can do what we can't do yet. Deliver an already compressed stream to the computer. Data rate's not as large as uncompressed raw so recording to disk is possible.

They're also using the same Micron sensor we were testing, so we know image and motion are just great. Very filmlike.

I hope Andrey's still working on it.

Last activity in the CVS was 7 days ago, so yeah they are basically updating the code every week...

I've found on the net this sensor ...is a strange one is square global shutter and is very big http://download.cypress.com.edgesuit...upa_4000_8.pdf
if it is not too expansive maybe can be used for the next elphel

I think that's the one Cypress offered me. The guy didn't say the reference but he said it was a big global shutter sensor that was able to do 2k 2.39:1 at 24fps. He said it was a bit pricey too.

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/946...lupa4000m.html

1750$ :whistle:
I don't know if it's the nude sensor because it's in the evaluation kit category but yeah, "a bit pricey" ;)

That's just the sensor. I've read somewhere the price for the whole evaluation package is like $5000. Anyway the guy from Cypress will send me a price list on monday.

wow 1750 dollars only the sensor
compared to the micron that is 33.19$
....if in some year it will be taken for cheap
I think that this is what we need...
no adaptor 35mm sensor size and the possibility
to "shift the image" like some very expansive lens
....full to control vertical architecture line distorsion :-)
(this can be made already but with less benefit cause the size of the sensor)
and all in camera maybe it can be adapted to the elphel 353
and with these spec. :-) it will rock

It is also much cheaper and smaller than what is being proposed over there, more comprehensive. You are looking at the a size very close to the existing small box (handheld).

The Micron, I don't like the quality, an few years back it was obviously inferior to what else was available (but not an FF Ibis5a relying on internal ADC) but we can only hope that the modern micron binned to 720p can accomplish something.

The Lupa sensor is probably not available at an cheap price, it was monochrome only requiring an expensive for color. They mention it is available with color mask, maybe it has changed. Altasens is an better choice I think, they have an increased range.

Altasens doesn't support small projects. They were my first option.

Yes, this thread is a bit quiet lately.
I have the 353, but I just want to get started on it when I 'really' have the time.
I think within a month I can spend all my free time on this project again.

Andrey was (or still is) in China for the development of some parts, so it seems quiet, but there's probably allot going on. I'll be shooting another test in the middle of France the coming weeks, but I'll probably use the 333, because I don't have portable power or a power transformer for a car battery yet for the 535. I don't think I have an internet connection in France, but if I do, I'll post what I'm doing.
I think the Elphel still is the most promising camera for us 'alternative imaging' filmmakers.

Yes, I know, I tried to talk to them ages ago, but you can go through their agents, like hanvision. They are producing an number of different chips in the background, apparently, and so you can find cameras based on them. Foveon should be getting an move on, to go big and license more, before their patent worth runs down.

Oscar

The Elphel is still the most promising, but converting an still or webcam, or doing HDMI on something cheap, is still desirable.

It seems Hanvision's only working with Foveon sensors now. I just mailed them. Let's see what they can offer.

Any other Altasens distributor? You're right, maybe we can get small amounts that way.

I think Toshiba has an camera, but slow and costly, have link on my technical thread. But wait, they have announced they are working on things, so it should turn up further into the year. I think there was another company linked from the Foveon, or the hanvision site before (complicated to find some links on these sites).

Reading the Red digital cinema site ( http://www.red.com/index.php ) I've found that people that have tryed it is amazed by the dynamic range of the camera that is 66dB so I've downloaded (once again) the data sheet of the micron 5mp sensor ( http://download.micron.com/pdf/flyers/mt9p001.pdf ) and I found that elphel have 70dB cool ...isn't it!?!

Hi Mateo,

If you take a look at the New DIY HD Cinema Camera thread you can download clips captured with that sensor.

I am very dubious of dynamic range claims. There is an document I saw an long time ago over at Dalsa, I think, that explains how these figures are not as good as they make out.

I used to think this dynamic range was basically reflective of the bit depth than actually latitude, but people seem to be saying differently. But all the time the db matches bit depth. Another thing is, what binning is the max being measured. I suppose somebody like Andrey would be able to clarify these things, what are they really meaning here by 70db. The 5mp shot I saw looked no better than an Sanyo HD1 camera in latitude, an lot of burn out. Of course, we expect better from binning.


With latitude I tend to look at well capacity (ceiling), noise factors (floor), QE/fillfactor, and any latitude extensions schemes first, to get an idea of what it might turn out.

I think you're right Wayne I've seen a document that combine bit depth only to dB latitude not othe spec of the sensor ! but I hope that the final result will be better than a Sanyo ....reading the Jose's thread I've found that rolling shutter issue is minimal if the sensor is set to 96MHz but looking at the image on the elphel wiki in particular this one: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...sample_01.jpeg you can notice the problem looking at every car ...hope that the sensor was set at a lower refrash rate ?48MHz?

Yeah, those cars do look more sporty than usual, but not too bad.

The larger version has more definition in the highlight detail.

That is more the contrast I would be looking for (you can brighten and stretch post color correction) not to much detail lost in the shadows, and not too much lost in the top end. Problem is that sun is shining through an cloud, so you have an big density filter over it. Look at the blue car down the bottom and you can see it's reflection. Car looks nice, can see inside of it and out, under somewhat and ther disk break mechanism, natural enough. Something bright/reflective next to the drain is burnt out. So it is probably dealing with half the stops of what it seems to be, then again, what aperture was used. Looks better than the 3 micron sensor from an few years back, but I will take an guess, is it 8 stops?

There is still the lowish SN, but if it could deal with harsh tropical midday, mid summer sun like that, it would be great to use.

My presentation at Google
 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0
That was (and still is) keeping me really busy

THE camera...
 

Thanks for posting that Link Andrey!
It was real cool to see and hear the guy who made elphel! :)

Is there any news on internal camera harddrive support? Just curious!!

//O.

We just received some (factory built) 10349 boards while in California but the first one has some hardware problems I could not resolve while in a trip. I do not think it is serious as the prototypes worked. Actually our developers have 2 prototype hard boards with hard drive for several months, so some software is already developed.