Your wish is outside of reality:) If i remember correctly Andrey said about 1" kodak sensor cost more than $3K.

My wish for Elphel camera same as 2 years ago:
CineformRAW in silicon and Altasens 2/3" at $3K :)

Are you sure it's not possible? I mean, I guess it wasn't possible 1 or 2 years ago, but new CMOS sensors are being developed and production costs are getting lower. If it's not possible now, it'll be in little time.

If you really want Cineform RAW and Altasens 2/3" at exactly $3K, buy the Sumix cam and StreamPix 3. Compression is made outside the camera, but you just need a core2duo 2,4Ghz laptop. You may think that's exactly the problem because you want hardware compression, but if you think about it you'll need even a faster computer if you want to edit 1080p RAW.

Anyway if you want to get rid of the computer you would need a viewfinder, internal software interface, internal HDD or Compact Flash slots, battery and many other things (a REC start/stop button, lol) and all those things would increase the price a lot. Why do you need internal cineform compression if you still need a computer for everything else?

Maybe your wish is more possible now in terms of hardware, but when it comes to money it seems you're asking for a camera between SI2KMini and SI2K for like $10,000 less than the Mini. That's quite unrealistic.

Just a quick note from me.
I wish we could gather a little group with people who view these things as a continuously developing project. Andrey (from Elphel) is the impersonation of 'open source', so it's a unique opportunity to help develop this thing.
When we start making a list of what the camera it should be, you're not getting the point of an open source project. Help.... don't demand.
I know Andrey would encourage a group on this forum who want to push this thing forward. Unfortunately, I'm not a software developer, so I can only work on optics.
This camera has improved allot from the beginning, so don't think this'll be the last version you'll see.
I think the Sumix cameras should encourage this project, not discourage us.

sounds great, sumix is not bad at all, but has no compression in silicon.
you need a power hungry laptop or micro motherboard box with windofs and streampix. grr Silicon is great but out of range cash wise
sorry a HL Canon is not so sexy but for film making not sooo bad
the ephel has great potential I guess

Again Ronald, the Sumix cam does lossless compression in silicon.

good point Oscar I'm not a software developer also but I can contribute on other side of the project. I haven't a lot of time in this period and this is the only reason I haven't already bought the camera! and also money :-) but I check once a week the progress on elphel wiki site and I've found that they have improved a lot (focus aid, faster recording speed and hd direct recording)

Hi all the CCD cams beam somehow the image on three for each color.
To do it cheap and dirty split the picture on 4 CCD debayer and glue the quarters together, could be cheaper as one huge cmos, ccd or whatever.
Maybe a 4 k cam

353 battery power...
 

Hi all Elphel users...

..anyone found a good way to battery power the Elphel 353 yet?

I'm found this the other day:
http://www.tessco.com/products/displ...95&eventPage=1

Battery powered POE port...sturdy built and not totally overpriced.

Suggestions - anyone?

This thread has been far too quiet. Let me start with some chroma key footage (outdoors green screen) shot with the Elphel. I had to use the 333 model because the 353 I got doesn't seem to respond to the new software yet. And besides, I've taken it apart to attach a board with the separate hard disc, and didn't have the time to finish that.

This is just a test, the first shot isn't really focussed right. One of the disadvantages of an LCD screen in bright sunlight.
http://community.elphel.com/videos/chromakey.avi

I the mean time, Andrey (from Elphel) is working on some important improvements. He mentioned increasing about 3-5 times of the CMOS sensor dynamic range. Another guy at Elphel is working on audio recording.

cool news and video oscar
if only I've the time :-(

I've updated the chroma key sample with the 333. It's just a test, but I noticed a light line around the keyed figure, so I got rid of that and uploaded a less compressed file:

http://community.elphel.com/videos/chromakey.avi

I'm wondering if there are still people out there/here with programmer skills who would be interested in this project. People where working on the hard disk recording (I have the HDD right here) but that stagnated somewhat. Recording directly to disk (on top of the camera) would be a great starting point to make the camera independent from a PC. Please email me if you're interested in the Elphel cinema project.

I've got another question...

What happened with the 353? It had (IMHO) the highest quality 2K capable low cost sensor available today (MT9P031 from Micron/Aptina). I know Altasens is better, but 25 euro is REALLY low cost.

I'd also like to know if there're projects to change the compression quality to something that's really usable for serious filmmaking.

I don't really care for the pc, because the Elphel needs relatively low processing power, so a 3.5" core duo board should do fine, but at least 2.40:1 2K and low compression would make this camera a real option to shoot digital cinema.

Jose, actually, the hard-disk recording project was meant to lower the burden on the PC/laptop so it could use more of it's power for compression quality.
Daniel took up the project to help develop the interface of the software but unfortunately, for us, he's now working on the sumix camera. The software was never finished and I'm not a programmer, so I can't tell if it would work out. The aim would be to record at 90% compression quality at least.

You're right about the HDD recording. One more question: Is Ogg Theora a good codec for our purposes or we should start looking for other possible FPGA codec implementations?

As I said long time ago: Elphel Camera, as Sumix, is not usefull for this kind of product in its actual configuration.May be it is good for some other things, but not for a HD shooting camera.
If you were going to use a Core 2 Duo what would be the point of doing processing inside the camera?.

One of the Big Problems (fos us) of Elphel Cameras is their lack of a gigabit ethernet connection.
100 Mbit connection is too limited.

Hello Juan,

I'm not sure I agree with you...I for one wouldnt want to carry around a laptop anyways. Dont get me wrong gigabit would be cool...but its not on the top of my wishlist.

currently there is the option to record directly to disk with a elphel camera zif harddisk. Andrey is currently working on a version that uses sata drives...and that version is also available with 12v, compactflash and USB.

..add to this the possibility to use a USB wifi dongle - I know there has been successful tests doing this but not sure what state it is in at the moment. I'll find out in a couple of weeks when I receive the new version.

I hope to have a simple setup with the elphel + c mount lens + sata drive + 12v battery + usb wifi...and then control the camera from my wifi enabled phone via the phone browser and a piece of homegrown scripting. (elphel is open source so I can place this html/script on the camera and just point my phone to it) ..so - no laptop.

This might sound cumbersome and weird to many as there will not be a real-time display just control functions...but hey - anyone who wants a full blown camera should buy the Scarlet camera released next year...3K usd...me I prefer this one as I enjoy the limitations/possibilities of this homegrown solution.

Would be cool to hear what you think! :)

//O.

Odd, have you read this wiki page: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Camogm about the software to control the HDD recording?
They are working on a new version (see Camogm2) that also records audio files.

The main thing for us now is to have a front-end/interface for this software. Daniel was working on it before. I have no programing skills myself unfortunately.

I'll put together my 353 and the HDD this week, so I can start testing again. I've also never really tested the optical viewfinder I've made.

Hi Oscar,

Yeah I've been following that page for quite some time - exciting stuff!!

I do programming in flash/html/scripting and I intend to do a customized web interface for capturing...once I have the 12v version of the 353 with the new 10369 board and possibly even get wifi to work I'll be making a small screen interface to control the camera. I'll probably also do a laptop sized interface.

I'll let you know when that happens!! (and of course release anything I do open source ;)

The problem I see is it seems we have different points of view.
I was one of the firsts to shoot HDCAM Cinealta in South America back in 2000/2001, so my experience comes mostly from a professional perspective.

The setup you are describing loks to me like a, you said it, cumbersome consumer "camcorder".
I don't think SI-2K is the same like carrying a laptop, despite it has a Core 2 Duo inside.
The problem, for me, with having just 100 Mbit interface, is that you really need to compress things a lot to get way down the less than 10 Mbytes limit.That is too much because of two things: More compression means (usually lower quality) and more compression means higher processing requirementes to compres/decompress and higher power requeriments (watts).

Anyway, Scarlet is exactly the best option as a replacement to exactly the setup you were describing.
I'm looking for something completly different.

PD: BTW, I have some aplications where I can use an Elphel Camera and I even asked Andrey about some things, the point is it is not suitable for shooting stuff, besides some "hobby" workflow.

I'm sure our needs are quite different as I am not looking for a camera to use for traditional filming. I work with 3d graphics animation on a pro basis and the camera I'm looking for is for experimental & arts use. (like stop motion, custom sync, strange frame sizes and frame rates etc)

I'm not sure how you deem this to be a consumer camera...?

Its a "HD capable open source camera" that is adaptable to all sorts of use...something quite different from a closed consumer grade camera. (read: scripting the camera, custom gui, custom framesize and frame speed and so on)

That's the point of having an in-camera harddrive.

By recording to an in-camera drive the only limiting speed is the processing speed of the camera, bus speed and harddrive - no slow external linkage. That means very high datarates. Second, you don't need a laptop.

If you need a standard HD video camera Scarlet is definitely the best alternative under $10K - for less than $3k. The Elphel is not at all the same animal and really should not be compared...neither cost wise nor usage wise I think...

If you describe anything not being your standard "pick up and shoot" video, as "hobby" work flow - I guess you're right. But there's a lot of other needs/ways to create motion graphics and this is where the adaptability of the elphel and its open system comes in.

..so yes I really do agree this is not your standard "pick up and shoot" cam!! :)

There are a lot of different needs/uses out there and I feel Elphel has a bright future.

One thing Juan forgets... Elphel is a continuously developing project. We have seen a big development from the first version to the one we have now. The captain of this is a very intuitively working man, Andrey Filippov, who's always looking at the newest (possible) solutions.
This means that when you don't see this thing as a growing project, you will only see its shortcomings as it is at the moment. You'll definitely don't see the last version of the Elphel camera right now.

Ok, I see I touched some strong feeling about the Elphel camera.
Anyway, here I go again:

I understand there are many more needs outside from the classic point and shoot, which is not what I use to do anyway.
I'm also a post guy, and post/FX is INDEED the niche I see for Elphel.

Time lapse, I would rather use a Canon camera.
Some strange shots, maybe inside a pipe? I could use the 353, but probably without a harddrive if the pipe is small.

I never attacked Andrey, he has his own way of doing things, and btw is the only guy I know who has made a full camera and make it Open Source.

Nobody is perfect, nor Steve Jobs, nor me, not Andrey.Not even any of you.
So, I think It would be a nice thing to accept that we all can be wrong.We will never know it. It took a couple of years for SI to understand what they needed to know to get what they wanted and what needed to be done even if it was against their own way of thinking, after gathering a lot of information from Obin Olson's testing (if anybody here remember him), then came Jason and me.The final stuff was guided by Jason Rodriguez till the final product.
Sumix doesn't seem to be able to learn from SI past experience.They started the same route SI made many years ago.They are basically repeating most of the old mistakes.

Elphel is something different, I know it and accept it.It is just that I feel that the secret lyes in the details, and there are a couple of "details" that somewhat limit its openness.
I mean, it is really open, and you gonna tell me that if I think it is the right thing, why I just don't get one and modify it to get what I think is better. Problem is life is only one, and I don't have time to become myself a whole team of programmer, engineer, technician, cameraman, Colorist,etc,etc,etc.
If it only had a higher bandwidth interface and some "independent" module where you could play with compression you could do a lot more things with it.I guess this two things should be easier to get than the whole HDD recording,etc,etc, but as I said before, I'm probably wrong.


Hope somebody understands what I'm trying to say.Sorry if I sounded rude and hurt anybody's feelings.

PD; Thinking about it I guess someone here should make some kind of "Hall of Fame" and put Obin's name in it, because from what I remember he was/is indeed one of the founders/original contributor of the whole thing that gave rise to SI-2K and RED camera.
He was investing money and testing/trying to use crappy cameras back in 2003/4 and posting results here, at DVinfo. I really feel he deserves some credit.

Juan, Obin is high regarded on this forum by a lot of people including me. All your work and comments are much appreciated too. I remember reading Obin's first discussions, regarding it as 'unreachable' for someone like me.

Your comments were not touching feelings.. I was just pointing to the fact that this is a developing thing. You can't tell how things will be in a year or two. And I think it's too easy (for me anyway) to sit and wait till other people do it for you. It's needed for such a project to steer it in the right direction.
People are now working on audio recording through usb sound cards connected to the usb board on the Elphel. Months ago I was recording and syching minidisc recordings to the footage. Of course I knew this wasn't the way to go, but it was needed to get this thing going.

Well maybe my feelings a little bit ;) I think I'm getting tired of the "consumer" and "prosumer" tags... We all know that sony and the big ones is selling us old technology and deliberately set compression limits to make us buy their really expensive stuff...or settle with below par quality...

There are now solutions however that put serious cracks in that monopoly...

www.RED.com is one huge reason :)

With regards to elphel, anything extendable that can output imagery with no or little compression and quality enough to use for pro work - is a pro tool...I think.


I totally agree with you.

To focus on one thing and make that good instead of spreading thin. This is why the elphel...or any homegrown project really, is for someone interested in the building process, not just the final camera...or one would probably be better off just getting some extra work and save up for a RED one or scarlet.

Not necessarily - I guess we'll find out once I have a go at getting it to work haha
But I like the process of building it so it's alright to fail...I'll just try again.
(good way to learn)

Also I have trust in Andrey and his excellent work.

No worries about that, not with me anyway. I totally appreciate your feedback and I definitely have respect for what you say. I think what we all need to ask is what tools do we need and how much time do we want to spend to get them/create them.

I like elphel because to me its not just using it...its also the journey to create it.

..that said - once we get that direct to harddrive (or CF) to work, along with a Wifi connection - it will rock in a big way!! :D

Yes, but anyway I can't understand why nobody shares the idea of a GigE interface.
That way we can easily connect a Mini-itx or whatever, and let developers work their way out.I feel that is a much more "open" solution than relying on the internal hardware limitations.

I've been quite frustrated about the limitations I have with the actual setup.
And I reaaly want to use the 353.No industrial camera Ive seen, despite having the needed interfaces, gives me "actual" control of the hardware without leting me stucked with their "crappy" "propietary" really more of the same software solutions.

Like Sumix fiddling with their encumbered "only Windows" "drivers".

All that doesn't make much sense to me, because if you are manufacturing cameras, your bussiness is that, making good cameras, not ruining your product under apile of bad/limited software.

Can anyone here make any sense out of those crazy marketing policies?

It seems to be the standard.

Hey guys. My first post in this thread. It took me some time to read the previous 64 pages :)

I am both a professional filmmaker (mainly postproduction) and software developer. So the elphel is a terribly interesting project for me.

I think the project is well on track and the HDD or CF slot is definitely the way to go.

As far as I have read one big thing is still a pretty unexplored territory: The "On Camera" Interface, meaning all the buttons, knobs, dials, etc that you normally have on a video camera. Also the Elphel is still in a pretty small security camera case. Not the optimal solution for filmmakers.

Here are some thought about how to deal with this:
*) We need a bigger camera case designed specifically for filmmakers, maybe with a different (PL?) or even exchangeable lens mount part.

*) The Interface for the buttons and dials could work this way: The Axis EXTRAX should have a serial interface which we can use to connect an Arduino microcontroller board (costs around 30€) -> arduino.cc
This should give us up to 6 analog 10bit inputs for potentiometers (for knobs like exposure time or frame rate) and 14 digital inputs for on/off buttons (like record start/stop)
The buttons and potentiometers should only cost a few cents.


If we now also get some kind of display we finally freed ourselfs from the laptop.



Oscar please check your inbox, I sent you a PM some time ago.

hi ....some ago I've looked at arduino microcontroller too
but I've no skills about programming so :-(

But I've seen that now arduino have usb over serial port
and elphel have usb 1.0 that can be used for that goal
http://www.arduino.cc/en/Guide/Windows

You are right!
That would also cover the power supply for the Arduino then.

..sorry to rain on the parade...

I've been programming the arduino for quite some time and its a really cool piece of hardware/software.

..that said - it doese'nt make sense using the arduino for this...as using the arduino means we have no or little camera feedback display possibilities. (build your own customized hardware displays anyone??) Add to this all the rapid changes happening with the elphel. It would take a lot of work to keep up, making a hardware interface and not a software one.

The elphel needs wifi - then we can control it using a browser on a smartphone/iphone.

That way the user interface can be re-designed to accomodate changes in just a few mins...as opposed to days using hardware. A software solution also that means people who do not program / design hardware can easily upgrade the user interface.

Just my 5 cents ;)

Sebastian , somehow PM is disabled on my account. Can you sent an email? (lijsten@degalerie.nl) Thanks.

I started another thread about that, because it could also apply to other DIY camera projects.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=124102

Thanks for your input. Interesting ideas!

Some Elphel Hardware News:

Andrey silently added a bunch of new pages in the official elphel wiki:

http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=10369

There is a new interface board: the 10369 - interface board with SATA port, 2 CF card slots, USB (4 ports), RS-232, 2 channels of optoisolated I/Os for synchronization, clock/calendar with super-capacitor backup power.

No official news are announced or if the board is available or what can really be done with it.

10369
 

Yes, we've got these boards built at the factory as well as the camera enclosure parts as shown here - http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...3L_with_10369A and now testing everything (so far so good) so the factory can make complete assembly of the cameras.

We do not yet have 12V version -- there is a known issue (discovered by the guys from http://www.hackerbotlabs.com/) - these DC-DC converters do not seem to have undervoltage/overcurrent protection. It is not an issue in the standard PoE camera - PoE chip takes care of the protection itself, but this chip is bypassed in 12V or 24V non-IEEE802.3af compliant versions, so the 12V camera virtually went out in flames - dying 12V battery caused DC-DC to increase current (to maintain output power), got overheated, failed and had the input diode bridge burnt. We plan to use different model of the DC-DC converters that are supposed to have such protection, but not finished the testing yet.

LinuxDevices article
 

It has more details on the 10369 - http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT5102023409.html

Andrey

Between...

Does anybody still have the BloodSimple(TM) codec source Zsolt Hegyi posted here about a year ago?

I am afraid he edited out the links in his original post.

Andrey, which Micron (Aptina) sensor ( 5MP 1/2,5" MT9P401 or 1,6MP 1/4,5" MT9M002) is better for shooting video (sport) 720p60 ?

Micron/Aptina sensors
 

I can not really help you - it is very difficult to get any information from the manufacturer, we only use now MT9T001 and MT9P001/MT9P031 (seem to be the same chip, just different marketing name). We will have MT9P001 with BAR coating - among others that will improve performance when you have sun in the view (standard sensors have plain glass)

Here are two links to that article:
http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.p.../07/05/1711221
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.../07/12/1851251

The new elphel 353 cameras can now write full HD 1920x1080p quicktime *.movs @ 25fps to internal HDD or cf card.

I updated the HD cinema camera Development elphel wiki page: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...evelopment_FAQ

Can we see a sample clip Sebastian? If compression is low or at least not too visible, that could mean a huge step forward.