Jeff says that FCP thing's a no go.

-Vinson

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : I asked my client to try the wait a few seconds for sync approach and he reported no difference. The video delay is present in all modes. He's getting ready to call Panasonic and see what they have to say on the matter.

jeff -->>>

Jeff, has your client heard anything from Panasonic? I've contacted my retailer, but haven't heard anything back yet.

Has anyone received any news at all regarding the sync issue and whether Panasonic is even planning on addressing it?

thx,


Skip Hunt

Here's an explanation from Stuart English:

http://2-pop.5thavehosting.com/cgi-bin/discussion/forums/panasonicAGDVX100camera.cgi?noframes;read=37154

My client got the same answer (in less technical and less specific terms) and is resigned to the audio delay anomaly with the DVX100. but if I'm reading Stuart English's explanation correctly, he seems to say that the maximum delay is 1 frame. My client firmly maintains that the delay is closer to 2 frames. He conducted his test indoors at fairly close range (6 to 8 feet from subject) and using CRT monitors.

We are getting together this weekend to compare several cameras (he has a Sony PD150 and DVX100) with my XL1S. I'll post the results Monday or Tuesday when I have time.

Jeff

Stuart English posted a response to the sync issue on other sites:

http://2-pop.5thavehosting.com/cgi-bin/discussion/forums/panasonicAGDVX100camera.cgi?read=37154

Michael

It sounds like Stuart English is trying to do "damage control" on the issue of the audio sync problem/characteristic/issue.

Jeff, I will be looking forward to hearing what you come up with.... especially as it concerns the XL-1s. That may be the best "fall-back" for those of us that thought the Panny 24p may be the way to go.

Guess the old saying "may" apply here.... "If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is." I thought the Panny 24p was going to be my next cam. I may be wrong.

Thanks for the info, Nick

It would be helfpul if people who own other DV camcorders can do a similar test and see if an audio/video discrepancy exists. Unfortunately, I only have the AG-DVX100...

Maybe I can borrow one of my brother's consumer level camcorders and see.

A 1 to 2 frames delayed video is most of the time not a problem...on an analog display. In the "digital age" however , also displays have their processing delays and the bad news is that they sum up with camera video delays and both together often exeed the acceptance limits. An LCD or a plasma display easely takes 1 to two frames extra. A DLP(TI processing) takes together with the scaler processing up to 4 frames...For the purists there are surround processors available (Meridian...) to solve these problems.

For those who may have missed it, some interesting info on the sync issue at Adam Wilt's site:

http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html#AVsync

(and thanks for the clarification on the audio lock/unlock Jeff, appreciate it)

Boy, Adam saved me a great deal of typing today and tomorrow. Our results testing the Sony PD150 and Panasonic DVX100 closely mirror his results. Our PD150 showed a zero field advance in 60i (with FCP and Premiere). The DVX100 results are identical.

The Canon XL1S split the difference, showing a 1 field delay in 60i and a 1 to 2 field delay in frame mode (perhaps caused by additional processing).

I have a lot more details in testing methods, microphones, decks used etc. if anyone is interested.

I don't personally find the delay objectionable or the fix, slipping the audio 1 or 2 frames. My client, on the other hand does, for two reasons. He does a lot of event work and uses 60i or 30p. He captures huge chunks of video and doesn't want the added time of rendering audio. However, if he captured in small clips it might be worse, fixing each clip.

The other reason became more apparent when he took me into his conference room. On the wall was a 50" (guessing as to size) plasma screen. The delay was much more apparent when DVX100 raw footage (non-slipped) was piped into the room. My clients question to me is how does he edit now? Does he ask his client what he's going to show it on before he edits it? What if it's a wedding and the grooms parents have a CRT and the brides parents a plasma? Does he edit two different versions? What if they get a new TV and complain that the sync is now off on the new screen? But if he doesn't make good on his product , how does it affect his reputation? I think it's getting to be more headaches than he really wants to deal with.

The DVX100 is starting to show it's lineage. It's a top of the line mini DV camera, prosumer, if you will, but nothing more. It's in the same class as the Sony PDF150 and Canon XL1S that were used in our tests. Each camera has it's faults, weaknesses and strengths. There is no one best camera in this price range and that's reality. Trying to pick a winner in those three is pointless. They are all good cameras. Find a good operator for these cameras and you've got the start of something.

Jeff

Jeff, thanks for your input. Being involved in audio/video delay matching myself since quite some time , mainly for the signal transport streams and display side problems, I am still interested in your test methods.
The only solution for the (real) problems you mention is that every step in the chain keeps perfect sync...If one plays a DVD which already has a 1 frame slip in the authoring process, played back on a DVD player with an extra 2 frames video delay, displayed on a plasma display with another 2 frames or more...we end up with 5 frames..not acceptable, but the problem is that everybody involved in the chain says "one or two frames (with my part)..nobody can hear/see that..." The only solution today is a very expensive AV processor/amplifier with lipsync settings.

Like many of you reading messages on this web page i am also trying to decide whether or not to buy this camera. I'm pretty much sold on it but my next question is what editing system should i use. Now i've heard that both panasonic and apple have worked together on developing the software for this camera. Should i buy an apple computer because of this or should i look at other systems in the same price range. I say this because i have never used an apple operating system ;only windows. I now use sony as my pc because it's a great computer and that it comes with the most current edition of adobe premier already installed. I hope to spend around $5,000 total for both the camera and the computer. Once i have the pc i will buy some kind of 24 frame rate conversion software like dvfilmmaker. Any info with this is helpful.


thanks john,

Hello John, as of right now I think only In-sync's Blade 2 software supports the advanced 24p options of the DVX100, possibly Apple's Cinema Tools as well but I have to double check on that. Otherwise Apple and Avid are still working on it. Hopefully it'll be soon and the audio-sync issue will also be addressed in both Final Cut Pro and Avid Xpress DV 3.5.

If I'm understanding you correctly, and since this is the case with the current NLEs available now, I would stick with PC, at least for the time being. You could use your Sony PC, render the advanced 24p options with DVFilmmaker, then edit in Premiere or something along those lines.

Only when Avid or Apple finally releases support for the Panasonic camcorder, then I'd make the buying decision of which NLE to go with. If however you're just wondering which platform to go with period, and you're anxious for something other than Premiere, then that's another thread entirely...

The editing forums below should help in that decision. Good luck!

Is this 2 frames unsync constant, all the time, not "dancing"...

I mean, if so solit, you can just import meterials in "Avid" e.g. and just cut bring audio 2 frames back (or forth, I've missed it acctually, is it to late or too soon)....

But, if this 2 frames becomes 3 or 1 after e.g. 5 min. than it is a real problem.....

Sorry on my english, I hope you've understood what I ment!

V.

Basically the delays are constant and depend on the architecture (numer of frame buffers...)used for the image processing. There is a slight cadence (1 frame or less) when it concerns so called 3:2 pulled down footage. Up to two frames difference are generally accepted for video.

I see....

It is just that...
I can't belive that they developed such a "high end" very "in frot of the time" (price wise, at least) gadget, with such a stupid and annoying error....


Sometimes I just get that feeling they do it on purpous!:)
They go, OK, we'll give you 24p cam, just to make you horny over these possibilities, but you can't be able to do with it n0t even a 10th of what you can do with real-price 24p cam....

WJp ae tjpse guys who come up with such ideas - some geniusses or some pure idiots who let the product with such a mistake to "go out and turn the market arround"....

Guess I'll never know...
But, as older as I get, I am kind of more and more "paranoid"---- in not beliveng a word of what those corporations are telling you and assring ou of

I own a Panasonic Japanese NTSC model NV-MX3000 camera.
It has the capability to shoot in "Frame-Mode", the same
feature as the Canon models XL-1 & GL-2 have implemented.

What is the difference between this NTSC 29.97 Frame-Mode
and true 24p ( or even 30p ) progressive scan, like the
Panasonic DVX100 has? Why is 24p better, both from a
camera technology point of view AND a director of
photography's point of view, in getting the type of shots
that they want included in his/her work. In what situations
would 29.97 Frame-Mode fail where 24p would succeed?

I'd appreciate replies containing *actual* explanations,
not comments like: "one is a fake effect and the other is
real progressive scan".

well, the DVX100 can shoot 24 frames per second, which is just like film. Though I don't think the camera has the most lines of resolution. It has a little over 500 i believe, but the XL1s has 550 I think it was? I wish i could say more, but I haven't had any experience with the XL1s

I sold my XL-1 to get one of these cameras. The 24P mode and 30P mode on the AG-DVX100 is a huge improvement over the XL-1 ( and XL-1s from other posts).

It's like the difference between VHS and S-VHS. Much sharper picture and better CCD's to boot.

No comparison.

The answer, IMHO, to your question lies in the "strobing" or flicker that exists when shooting 24p vs 60i. Film, which is the historical origin of the 24 fps paradigm, also demonstrates this strobing that occurs because at 24fps, motion cannot be adequately "stopped", resulting in a noticeable effect during pans, etc. The movie industry has become so used to this motion artifact at 24fps that they actually think it "enhances" the visual effect. If you ask the average movie goer what they see, they don't know the difference.

Now, I really don't intend to start a flame war, here. This subject has already achieved way more bandwidth than it deserves. It's an issue of dogmatic response.

The bottom line....the DP likes what he likes.....and if it's the 24 fps flicker of film he likes, that's what will be produced. For the more technically oriented imaging geeks out there, myself included, 60i makes for a much smoother action in pans and other motions.

So, take your pick, lower res 60i with smoother motion, or higher res 24p with jerky pans and stop motion. a pandemic choice.
But then, this is my .02 worth. There are many old heads in this business who will take issue with me on this...so what else is new?

Bill:

Note that this camera also shoots 30P for those who don't like 24P. 30 fps is the same speed as frame-mode that this thread addresses.

I think 30p is a terrific format to shoot in. For that matter, having the CHOICE is a great thing.

Choosing 24p is a little problemmatic because of the current spate of NLE capabilities( or lack thereof) in 24p. Otherwise, 24p definitely has its advantages....Primarily in the ease of DV to film transfer.

I like both 30p and 24p. Actually, I liked 30p better in the beginning, but the aesthetics of 24p are really starting to grow on me. I just wish Apple would release a version of FCP that would take away a few of the hoops you have to leap through in order to use 24p.

Steven, I remember you had to unload a couple DVX's way back due to funding issues. Are you back in the DVX boat now?

Skip Hunt

Yes I am, thanks to 0% interest card for 12 months.

Glad to hear you got another one Stephen! Your initial reports were very helpful for many people.

Nobody has really answered the DP question:

Where would NTSC 29.97 Frame-Mode fail and
true 30p succeed? Why does the DP *need* it?

30P on this cam is 29.97fps - that's not the issue.

The issue is frame mode is not full resolution - only about 360 lines.

This camera is full resolution, 480 line. See www.adamwilt.com for more info.

Resolution, smezolution....the old traditional performance parameters still apply...like optical quality of the lens system. I submit the glass on this consumer cam is not up to par.

Both the MX3000 and DVX100 use Leica optics.

Also, the frame mode of the MX3000 gives you full vertical and horizontal resolution.

Re: "In what situations would 29.97 Frame-Mode fail where 24p would succeed?"

The DVX100's 24P mode uses 3:2 pull down so when viewing its footage on a TV, you'll also be seeing interlaced 29.97 frames, just like with the MX3000.

The MX3000 gives you 30 fps at 720X480 off the CCD's? I'm not sure that's correct. According to Panasonic, the AG-DVX1000 is the first 3-chip miniDV to do true progressive scan at the CCD and on tape.

I'm not sure if that's correct either, however:

"The MX300...provides suberb horizontal resolution equivalent to 1,530 lines of a broadcast camera." ---MX300A Brochure. Frame mode: "records full vertical and horizontal resolution." ---another MX300A brochure.

GL1 and Optura PI manuals state that in frame mode/progressive mode the resolution is increased by 1.5 - both vertical and horizontal.

So..., is this correct, or are these cam companies lying?

According to Pana, the MX5000 plays back the max which miniDV is capable of, both in interlaced, progessive and interlaced 16:9 and progressive 16:9. But then the MX5000 has a way more video effective CCD pixels than the DVX100, and does the better 16:9. One problem though: where's the lux? (Couldn't help it!)

It's confusing, but here's how it works:

GL1/XL1 - they use Pixel shift to increase the 240 lines per field to 360 line in one frame. Thus the "1.5 increase" in vertical.

Optura PI is full frame progressive, but one chip.

All Panasonic frame modes are GL1/XL1 methods. The MX5000 might be different, but I have not seen any hard evidence it's true progressive video.

Adam Wilt did a great article in DV mag about frame mode.

I have not seen any evidence that the MX5000 does full progressive scan either. You'd think Pana would point this out!

Until they do, I say it uses the same old FRAME mode of earlier cams. I hope someone can find evidence to prove it either way...

It seems from what I've read some of the DVX100's better picture w/ 24p or even 30p is do to the cinema gamma or whatever they call the altered gamma curve. Is there away to do this with software such as After Effects (hopefully the non-production bundle which I own). Premiere has a gamma adjustment but it's only a overall boost/decrease.

Yes - you can do it in After Effects. Check www.adamwilt.com for a graph of the gamma curve changes.

Here's a link to my tech story on this subject. It will answer your questions.

You are misreading the 3000 brochure I believe and looking at the still picture specs.

http://videosystems.com/ar/video_progressive_need_know/index.htm

Bill, regarding film's 24P playback on the big screen, " If you ask the average movie goer what they see, they don't know the difference."

Sorry, but this is incorrect. Each frame is repeated twice, so the "movie goer" actually sees 48fps.

<< Each frame is repeated twice >>

Well, it might be a little more accurate to say that each frame is *shown* twice, due to the spinning shutter blade in a standard 35mm motion picture film projector.

Hello, erveyone, I usually edit movie use Apple Finial Cut pro on my Macintosh, and I bought a new camcorder - DVX100, but I don't know how to setup capture configration? coz that's first I use 24P camcorder. THX very much!

The search function in the upper right corner is invaluable in obtaining quick answers to topics. Many topics have been discussed in the past. This thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6614&highlight=Adam)in the Mac editing forum discuss the process and links to in depth discussions.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : The search function in the upper right corner is invaluable in obtaining quick answers to topics. Many topics have been discussed in the past. This thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6614&highlight=Adam)in the Mac editing forum discuss the process and links to in depth discussions. -->>>

That's good idea... Thanks for your help!

Rocky if you want to actually edit in 24P, you need to get additional software. Apple Cinema Tools is excellent, but it cost about $1,000, the next best thing is to get DV Film's software. It cost about $100. Check them out at dvfilm.com

Ernest

Yes, I got Apple Cinema Tools, very cool! but encoding here and encoding there, too trouble! :-( I hope include the great function in future FCP version.

Canopus has just released info on it's next Editor due for release in May. I'm posting this here because in the "Edius" specs I saw this bit:

"The engine operation is resolution independent and frame rate independent so future support of all video and audio formats is possible."


More can be found at:
http://www.canopus.com

I didn't see that bit before; that's great.

Now all we need to do is wait for Canopus's HD hardware card.

ANyone have any idea why you can't lay bars down while you're in 24p? Just noticed that... bizarre.

Why would you need SMPTE NTSC color bars when you're going to film?

Avid has announced support for 24p editing using this 'advanced pulldown' pattern in a soon-to-be-released version of XpressDV. Plus they've dropped prices onXPDV...Avid's been doing 24p the longest, something to think about! That editing product is available cross-platform, too, OSX and XP.

I think my subject asks the question we all want to know.....

Not really sure - I'll venture a guess it's something along the lines of how they've been doing for years with FilmComposer, but as far as specifics, I couldn't tell you.